Bethel Church - A Different Gospel

[Blood Bought 1953]

1 hour ago, Badjao33 said:

I'm not sure what Bill Johnson's wife was doing in that picture, looks innocent to me and not much different than the pictures below.  Some people apparently take naps/lay down on graves without seeking an anointing of any kind. 

 

 

Now that Jonestown is gone, I guess people just have to make do.

[seeking the lost]

On 8/30/2018 at 10:40 AM, Davida said:

You might want to Take your own advice and becareful of attributing New Age demonic activities & necromancy to the Holy Spirit!

 

Very interesting sources.  Turning to these sources to find out about Bethel is like turning to CNN to find out the truth about Donald J. Trump.  These do betray a bias and do not reflect the truth.

 

[Joshua-777]

9 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

In the book Physics of Heaven, Bill Johnson is quoted: “There are anointings, mantles, revelations and mysteries that have lain unclaimed, literally where they were left, because the generation that walked in them never passed them on. I believe it’s possible for us to recover realms of anointing, realms of insight, realms of God that have been untended for decades simply by choosing to reclaim them and perpetuate them for future generations” (The Physics of Heaven: Exploring the Mysteries of God in Sound, Light, Energy, Vibrations, and Quantum Physics, Chapter 4. Shippensburg, Penn. Destiny Image Publishers., 2012)

Some things to consider here:

1) God would never leave His Holy Spirit lying in a moldering grave, waiting to be "sucked up" by someone else.

2) God would never command, endorse or suggest anything that Christians would need to do that could cast the Church in the light of necromancy.

3) God states that He would "never leave us nor forsake us"; for Him to allow the Holy Spirit to remain in the grave while the person who died departs would indicate that the Holy SPirit (who is also God) was in fact removed from that person at death.

Hi Sojourner, that quote and your points of consideration do not go together.

[seeking the lost]

3 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

You need to research it, because Bill Johnson was one of the "Super Apostles" that proclaimed a special anointing upon Todd Bentley's "ministry," on what has become known in discernment circles as the "Charismatic Day of Infamy" on June 23rd, 2008.  Anyone who is(was) part of the inner circle of the New Apostolic Reformation movement was there to anoint Bentley as well.   Rick Joyner, Che Ann, John Arnott, and of course, the head Guru and founder of the NAR himself, C. Peter Wagner.  This is what Wagner "prophesied" about Bentely's ministry that day:

• Your power will increase.
• Your authority will increase.
• Your favor will increase.
• Your influence will increase.
• I also decree that a new supernatural strength will flow through this ministry.
• A new life-force will penetrate this move of God.
• Government will be established to set things in their proper order.
• God will pour out a higher level of discernment to distinguish truth from error.
• New relationships will surface to open the gates for the future!" 

Well, at least he got the last one right.  Bentley dumped his wife and formed a "new" relationship with another woman at the church.  Then carried on his ministry, (with the complete approval of people like Bill Johnson) like nothing had ever happened.  That's a pretty sweet deal.  NAR Charismatic Leaders can commit adultery and just keep right on leading.  No pesky repentance or repercussions to deal with it.  You just move to another town and give your new, apostolically-re-charged "ministry" some cool, edgy, avante garde name with some "spiritual" sound to it.  Oh, and add some random numbers.  That makes it really cool.  Form, but no substance.

 

 

Bentley is truly a weak and broken vessel.  You are correct in the reporting of his failure.   What you are not aware of is the men who came and worked with him to restore him.

Galatians 6:1

Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

[Joshua-777]

3 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

There were certain special events that happened in the Bible, but those events are not supposed to be treated as the norm for believers. The Charismatic movement is really bad about assuming that if God did it for one person, He will do it for anyone, and that is simply not what the Bible teaches.  The Charismatics are really prone to obligating God to promises He never made.

The mantles passed on thing is not a core point of doctrine for me. I do know we serve a God who through out the whole bible moved in unusual ways that often challenged those around. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever I do not believe God will do the exact same thing He's done but I do expect God to move in ways similar to what we see in the bible. When the Israelites crossed the Jordan, they made a monument of stones so the future generations can look back and remember what God has done, why? Because it positions them in faith for Him to move in their lives

[Joshua-777]

5 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

"We don't teach that!!!"  This is the default response from anyone teaching a false doctrine.  Seventh Day Adventists say they do not teach salvation through works, but they actually do.  Mormons say they do not teach becoming gods in the hereafter, but they actually do.  Johnson does what every teacher of false doctrines does.  He re-defines Christian terms to validate what he teaches to make it sound orthodox, and then bases the validation on the experience itself and the feelings it produces.  That does absolutely nothing to remove the truth from what they actually do.  Beni Johnson is Bill Johnson's wife.  If she is not trying to "acquire" an anointing, which Bill Johnson clearly states people should lay claim to, then what is she doing laying on a grave? Any time I have wanted to take a break or a quick nap I never considered going to a cemetery and doing so on top of a grave.  These people are dead.  They have no anointing or mantle to give.  The Bible does not support the concept at all.  They are practicing necromancy, which is strictly forbidden in the Bible.  That is why people like Johnson and Kris Vallotton have to distance themselves from admitting they do this.  I never said Bethel taught it.  I said they clearly practice it.  They know it looks whack to orthodox Christianity, and it is whack.  What would any one of the Apostles say about the crazy stuff that Bethel does, such as "Fire Tunnels?"

If the doctrine of passing on mantles is not found it the Bible, you cannot validate the concept, spiritually, or doctrinally by citing examples such as William Brannam and Shawn Bolz.  These are just people, not Prophets, or Apostles and all you have is their word that they received some "mantle."  Again, there is no way to document what they claim.  Convenient.  In the case of Brannam, we know concretely that he was a false teacher.  Brannam taught modalism, Serpent Seed doctrine, and annihilationism, and those are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the cornucopia of heresies Brannam taught.  Below is a quote from Bolz, on prophecy, which he claims to be especially gifted at: 

Just that one quote clearly tells you this is not someone that anyone should be looking to for sound doctrine, guidance or shepherding.  He gets special tips from God like birthdays, anniversaries, nicknames, pet names and bank account numbers!!!  Amazing!!!  This is what God's children really need to develop a close personal relationship with Jesus.  It is so ridiculous I had to read it three times to make sure I'd read it right.  Bolz turns prophecy into nothing more than a cheap parlor trick.  Bolz is not prophecying.  He's fortune-telling.  In other words, he is a psychic masquerading as a Pastor.  So much for Bolz.

If you do not know enough scripture to defend or reject Bethel's doctrine, then why are you involved in it at all?  We are supposed to test all things, and you have admitted above that you do not know, at least scripturally, how to test the teachings you are both receiving and participating in at Bethel.  So far, you have actually defended those teachings.  You have placed yourself in a position that, as a believer, you should not have placed yourself in.  Been there, done that and I don't recommend it.  The longer you stick with something false, the longer it takes to get out and the more regret you feel after you do get out that you allowed yourself to get conned.  Everyone wants to be used by God in a greater way.  But you cannot be used by God even partially, if at all, while you are mired down in a church who's practices are more aberrant than they are biblical.  We are supposed to preach the Gospel, teach, and edify, not chase after special anointings.  Bill Johnson points people down a dead-end road.  What happens in a few years and the pavement runs out?

Brannam did fall into straight heresy, I believe it started with taking offense, unforgiveness and pride. With Shawn Bolz or others who walk in that type of anointing, I have seen first hand people coming to the Lord because someone called out their name, birthday, etc. It is a powerful tool for evangelism but also for encouragement for the body. If someone is going through a rough time and someone calls out your address and tells you the situation you are going through and what God is wanting to do, that is encouraging.

Honestly, the doctrine of passing down mantles, etc. is a minor issue for me. It doesn't have much affect on my life. I do love church history and get inspired and hungry for more when I read about John G Lake, Smith Wigglesworth, William Seymore and the Azusa St. Revival, Charles Finney, etc. But I seek after God. I am going to better research this topic though, but this is a minor point in theology.

Seventh Day confuses grace with works and puts things in the way of what Jesus did, Mormons deny the deity of Christ by saying He is only the God of this world and that we are all going to be gods. At the core doctrine of belief, Bethel believes in Jesus, the son of God, died, rose again, and only in faith in Him we are saved. When we put faith in Him,  He fills us with His Spirit, and gives us power to live a holy life, and that He's coming again. 

I also appreciate your concern and I know you have alot of integrity Cobalt. With the Bethel movement, I have seen too many lives changed and people transformed from their ministry. Many of the students who graduated BSSM are my good friends and I take many of them to the streets to share the Gospel. I see first hand the fruit of their lives. I am also someone who takes everything to scripture. I don't have to agree with everything they do or believe to see the good in it.  I don't take peoples words for it ether, I go to the source.  Can you find me in Bill Johnsons words, him saying we can suck anointing out of graves?

You asked for proof of the impact,  well their missions around the world are a huge example. In Tijuana, I got to visit a house of prayer that specializes in getting girls out of prostitution that was lead by a bssm graduate. By Impact I mean people coming to know Jesus, as well as coming against social injustices.
They are also flooding the streets of Portland where I live in September where thousands of believers and going out to spread the Gospel for an event called Portland 2018. All summer, they have been sending teams and equipping churches to go the streets of Portland and getting those saved connected with local pastors to disciple them. Chris Overstreet, Former Outreach Pastor at Bethel moved up here and is leading this movement.  https://www.portland2018.com/

As far as documented evidence, it's pretty much like trying to go to mainstream media to find good things about trump.
 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Joshua-777

[Sevenseas]

15 hours ago, Joshua-777 said:

With practices I prefer to go to the source, what their students and leadership says, I’m around them a lot. Lol, the grave sucking thing just isn’t taught there. Now if students got weird in the past, don’t know, but I do know that is not something they endorse. 

Also the doctrine of passing in mantles can be seen with Shawn Bolz and William Brannam, which William got way off towards the end of his life, he would get adresssess birthdays, medical conditions. Shawn Bolz walks in a similar anointing. I don’t really want to debate it because i don’t know enough scripture to defend or reject it. I do know the fruit is pressing in to God and being hungry to be used by Him in a greater way.

 

 

 

no

scripture tell us that it is GOD who decides who gets what spiritual gift and the Holy Spirit imbues the person with that gift at the direction of God

as has been said, you cannot make a doctrine or a practice and call it 'godly' and say it has God's blessing upon it, from one example in scripture that is OUT OF THE NORM and takes place in the OT on top of it

we are filled with the Spirit of God as believers (sealed at conversion and then filled later I believe is the mandate from the NT )

is God running out of the Holy Spirit in some hitherto unknown way that He now depends on fallible people to pass on a 'used' gift?

I have seen so many demonic things passing for the Holy Spirit that I would not let a person I do not know pray over me and certainly not lay hands on me

 

what is happening at Bethel has already happened.  mostly in pagan rituals.

I fully understand you do not want to believe that and most likely will not believe it

there is no good end to what is being manufactured and practiced there, passing for the Holy Spirit

I have myself experienced strange phenomena that at the time I thought was God but now know was not and never will be God

there is most definitely a realm we cannot see and people charge into it without the slightest idea of what they need to be aware of

there is more deception leading people into more and more deception than most know what to do with

by the time the realization sets in that a person is being led by a bogus spirit and not the Spirit of God, they will most likely need help to break free of it as they have acquiesced so many times prior to the realization they are deceived

 

you should know from someone, myself, who has seen this, that Bethel will scrub things that people say are not God and they will do alot of damage control, so no surprise you cannot find what some here are telling you about

leadership also lies. vigorously and with forethought to cover up any mess that the practices of non-Christian rituals incur and they are fraught with non-professionals trying to help others who do not know what they are talking about

this continuing evolving spirituality is a mark of deception.  God does not change His mind every 5 minutes nor does He lie

 

these are some of the hallmarks of a cult.  this NAR cult is being practiced on a scale not seen before in the Christian church IMO and it is making inroads even into cessationist churches because it is demonic and has power to deceive

God will not protect people from their own determination to experience the bizarre and goosebump inducing spiritual experiences that so many seem to crave because they believe in some way, that these experiences are superior to studying scripture and applying scripture

oh for sure it is much easier and fun to go out with others with the fresh wind of some fantastic experience fueling the trip that mimics the Holy Spirit yet is not the Holy Spirit

remember the slave girl from which Paul cast out a demon of fortune telling.  don't bother to tell me about some being able to know things that they have no life experience of.  this is not God.  this is 'Christian' fortune telling and mimics the gift of actual word of knowledge given by God

 

y'all are playing with fire and not the godly kind

[ayin jade]

6 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

You need to research it, because Bill Johnson was one of the "Super Apostles" that proclaimed a special anointing upon Todd Bentley's "ministry," on what has become known in discernment circles as the "Charismatic Day of Infamy" on June 23rd, 2008.  Anyone who is(was) part of the inner circle of the New Apostolic Reformation movement was there to anoint Bentley as well.   Rick Joyner, Che Ann, John Arnott, and of course, the head Guru and founder of the NAR himself, C. Peter Wagner.  This is what Wagner "prophesied" about Bentely's ministry that day:

• Your power will increase.
• Your authority will increase.
• Your favor will increase.
• Your influence will increase.
• I also decree that a new supernatural strength will flow through this ministry.
• A new life-force will penetrate this move of God.
• Government will be established to set things in their proper order.
• God will pour out a higher level of discernment to distinguish truth from error.
• New relationships will surface to open the gates for the future!" 

Well, at least he got the last one right.  Bentley dumped his wife and formed a "new" relationship with another woman at the church.  Then carried on his ministry, (with the complete approval of people like Bill Johnson) like nothing had ever happened.  That's a pretty sweet deal.  NAR Charismatic Leaders can commit adultery and just keep right on leading.  No pesky repentance or repercussions to deal with it.  You just move to another town and give your new, apostolically-re-charged "ministry" some cool, edgy, avante garde name with some "spiritual" sound to it.  Oh, and add some random numbers.  That makes it really cool.  Form, but no substance.

 

 

Not to mention that they ignore scripture which clearly states he has to be above reproach to be a pastor, and the husband of one wife. Not an adulterer.

[Joshua-777]

55 minutes ago, Sevenseas said:

 

 

no

scripture tell us that it is GOD who decides who gets what spiritual gift and the Holy Spirit imbues the person with that gift at the direction of God

as has been said, you cannot make a doctrine or a practice and call it 'godly' and say it has God's blessing upon it, from one example in scripture that is OUT OF THE NORM and takes place in the OT on top of it

we are filled with the Spirit of God as believers (sealed at conversion and then filled later I believe is the mandate from the NT )

is God running out of the Holy Spirit in some hitherto unknown way that He now depends on fallible people to pass on a 'used' gift?

I have seen so many demonic things passing for the Holy Spirit that I would not let a person I do not know pray over me and certainly not lay hands on me

 

1 cor 14, Paul encourages us to seek after specific gifting such as prophesy and interpretation. 

[ayin jade]

2 hours ago, Joshua-777 said:

The mantles passed on thing is not a core point of doctrine for me. I do know we serve a God who through out the whole bible moved in unusual ways that often challenged those around. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever I do not believe God will do the exact same thing He's done but I do expect God to move in ways similar to what we see in the bible. When the Israelites crossed the Jordan, they made a monument of stones so the future generations can look back and remember what God has done, why? Because it positions them in faith for Him to move in their lives

Not according to my bible. It had nothing to do with positioning them in faith for God to move in their lives, but instead Joshua 4:24 so that all the people of the earth might know the hand of the LORD, is mighty and so that you might fear the LORD your God forever. A focus on the Lord, not on man.