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Saturday or Sunday?


enoob57

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7 hours ago, HAZARD said:

"And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun." (Mark 16:2),

"Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them." (Luke 24:1),

"The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre." (John 20:1),

Christ said he would be three days and three nights in the grave. This should prove it.

 He died on Wednesday and was put in the tomb before sunset that day.

He remained dead Wednesday night, all day Thursdsay, Thursday night, all day Friday, Friday Night, and all day Saturday.

He was resurrected early morning of the first day of the week, the first day of the week is Sunday.

Nearly correct.

Died Nisan 14 as the evening came to an end (evening and morning etc).
Rose as the end of the Sabbath approached (weekly) exactly three days and nights.

Ladies left AFTER Sabbath ended (Jewish Law) as the Sabbath (end) Trumpet sounded. 
Took them awhile to get to the empty tomb before the stars began to fade and the dawn approached.

It was the 1st day of the week when they began their journey to the tomb.

----------------------

There are those who argue that Yeshua must have resurrected in "FirstFruits" which they assume was on a Sunday as "the day after the Sabbath" (Leviticus 23:11). There are two problems with that belief as a condition on the events of the crucifixion and resurrection: First, the "sabbath" mentioned in Leviticus 23:11 was the High Holy Sabbath of the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Break, not the weekly sabbath. This is verified within the context of Leviticus 23 itself. Second, "firstfruits" is an event, not a day and firstfruits don't "rise", they are "presented." Yeshua was "presented" as the firstfruits, yes; but He did not have to "rise on [a day called] firstfruits!"

Now, exactly how do we know that He died on the 14th of Nisan and that, that particular 14th of Nisan fell on a Wednesday? Two reasons: First, we know the approximate time and day of the resurrection. Yeshua was already resurrected when the women arrived at the tomb on Sunday morning (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1-4; Luke 24:1; John 20:1). We know the burial was at or near sunset, so 3 days and 3 nights earlier from the resurrection establishes Wednesday as the day of the crucifixion. Since Passover begins the late afternoon of the 14th of Nisan (Exodus 12:6; Leviticus 23:5), the crucifixion had to be no later than that day.

Second, the series of events which took place just prior to the crucifixion fit the calendar that year with the 14th of Nisan at the middle of the week. In both cases, we have only to "work backward" from the "anchor point" (the crucifixion/burial) to see that the two accounts match:

6 days before Passover. We know Yeshua was in Beit-Anyah (Bethany) six days before Passover that year, (John 12:1). He was given a dinner in His honor.

5 days before Passover. After sunset, it became 5 days before Passover. The dinner in Yeshua's honor with El'azar was held, (John 12: 2). A large crowd of Judeans had gathered to see El'azar, the man Yeshua had raised from the dead, (John 12:9).

4 days before Passover. Scripture says it was the next day, a large crowd gathered in Yerushalim to await the arrival of Yeshua, (John 12:12). It is now four days before His arrest and crucifixion.

Yeshua, the Passover Lamb, fulfilled Zechariah 9:9 when, He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, as the people waved palm branches: 9 Rejoice with all your heart, daughter of Tziyon! Shout out loud, daughter of Yerushalayim! Look! Your king is coming to you. He is righteous, and he is victorious. Yet he is humble - he's riding on a donkey, yes, on a lowly donkey's colt. (Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-10; Luke 19:28-38; John 12:12-18). 

(The Bible tells us that Yeshua had been staying at Beit-Anyah by the Mt. of Olives (Matthew 21:12; Mark 11:11-12; John 11:1). This is not Beit-Anyah, the town of the same name, which we know was about 1.5 miles from Jerusalem, (John 11:18). But it is a "Sabbath day's journey" from the area of the Mt. of Olives to Yerushalayim, (Acts 1:12; Mark 11:1). A Sabbath day's journey is the distance permitted by Torah for travel on the Sabbath, about 2/3 of a mile. This "Beit-Anyah" was a tract of land and properties at the edge of the Mt. of Olives where many lived, (Mark 14:3, John 11:1). 

After arrival in Yerushalayim, Yeshua went to the Temple, but then returned to Beit-Anyah (Mark 11:11).

3 days before Passover. The next day, (Mark 11:12), now 3 days days before His arrest and crucifixion, He returned to Yerushalayim and cleansed the Temple (Matthew 21:12; Mark 11:15, Luke 19:45). Then He left Yerushalayim, (Mark 11:19). The Gospel of John, skips identifying the next 2 days.

2 days before Passover. The next day, now 2 days before His arrest and crucifixion, He returned to Yerushalayim (Matthew 26:2; Mark 11:27; Mark 14:1), passed the withered fig tree (Mark 11:20) and was confronted by the Torah-teachers, (Mark 11:27).

1 day before Passover. The next day, now 1 day before His arrest and crucifixion, Yeshua spent the day teaching, then had His talmidim go prepare a place for Passover, (Matthew 26:17; Mark 14:12;Luke 22:7-8). [Note: All the Gospels state it is the "first day of Matzah" or "the day of Matzah" and this throws many. Matzah is required at the Passover meal which begins in the late afternoon of the 14th of Nisan (Exodus 12:18) so the "1st day of Matzah" is understood as the evening of the 13, and after sunset the 13th, as matzah will be needed by the next late afternoon. This means that when the Gospels say it was the "1st day of matzah", there is no discrepancy that this is the late afternoon of the 13th.]

Day of Passover. Now just after sunset the 13th, beginning the 14th of Nisan, the day of His arrest and crucifixion, Yeshua ate His last meal with His Talmidim, (Matthew 26:17-21; Mark 14:12-18), telling them that He "had wished to have Passover with them", (Luke 22:15, but His talmidim did not understand that Yeshua would be dead the next evening and could not celebrate the Passover with them). 

As promised in Exodus 12:25-28 there was to be a perpetual explanation of the Passover service. This Messianic fulfillment took place when Yeshua showed His disciples how to celebrate the Passover Seder the evening before His death. During this time He explained how HE IS the fulfillment of the Passover seder (Luke 22:14-20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26). Just as He delivered the Israelites with a mighty hand from the bondage of Egypt, so is He delivering us from the bondage of sin with His mighty right hand! It was here that He explained the meaning of His person in the Passover elements. Afterwards, He and His disciples went to Gethsemene, where they spent part of the night.

During the night Yeshua was arrested (Luke 22:47-54) and we are told that His trial continued until some time between 9 a.m. and noon, when He was crucified, (Mark 15:25; John 19:14-16). 

At 3:00 p.m. (the 9th hour) on 14 Nisan, just before sunset, Yeshua died, (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34-37). It was preparation day, (Matthew 27:57; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:31;) By sunset, He was removed from the stake, (John 19:31; 19:41).

Day after the Passover, 15 Nisan. This is the High Holy Day, the Sabbath, (Leviticus 23:6). The cohanim went to Pilate to ask that the tomb be sealed and guarded. (Matthew 27:62). The 15th was the 1st night and day of the entombment.

2nd day after the Passover, 16 Nisan. This was the 2nd night and day of the entombment. This is FirstFruits, (Leviticus 23:11) when the first omer of the new crop is brought to the Temple.

3rd day after the Passover, 17 Nisan. It is now the weekly Sabbath, and the women are resting, (Luke 23:56).

Resurrection discovered, 18 Nisan. It is now after the weekly Sabbath, and the women are up early, before sunrise to head to the tomb where it is found empty, (Matthew 28:1-2; Mark 16:1-4; Luke 24:1-2; John 20:1).

So we know the Messiah's death was on the late afternoon of the 14th of Nisan, by the timeline of last week given by the Gospels, He was buried and was already resurrected when women arrived at the tomb before sunrise the 1st day of the week. Now let's work this backward to see what day-of-the-week the Passover had to be that year:

Early Sunday morning, the 18th of Nisan, the 1st day of the week, the women arrive to find the resurrection had already happened.

The 7th day of the week, 17 Nisan, the women stayed home and rested.

The 6th day of the week, 16 Nisan, was FirstFruits.

The 5th day of the week, 15 Nisan, the High Holy Sabbath of the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

The 4th day of the week, 14 Nisan, Passover. Yeshua was removed from the stake and buried just at or before sunset.

The 4th day of the week, 14 Nisan, Passover. Yeshua was arrested and crucified.

The 4th day of the week, 14 Nisan, was Passover. As the day began, after sunset the 13th, Yeshua and His talmidim ate.

The 3rd day of the week, 13 Nisan, was the day Yeshua was confronted by the Torah teachers at the Temple. Yeshua had His talmidim prepare for Passover.

The 2nd day of the week, 12 Nisan, was the day Yeshua cleansed the Temple.

The 1st day of the week, 11 Nisan, was the day Yeshua rode into Yerushalayim on a donkey colt.

The 7th day of the week, 10 Nisan, was the weekly Sabbath. Yeshua spent the beginning of that Sabbath in a dinner in His honor, for his resurrection of El'azar.

The 6th day of the week, 9 Nisan, Yeshua was in Beit-Anyah and was invited to the home of El'azar, the man whom Yeshua had resurrected.

Thus we see that by looking at the timeline, both by considering the prophecy "3 days and 3 nights" alone and examining the events of the week presented in the Gospels, not skewed by assuming the crucifixion was on a Friday, we find that the crucifixion was on the 4th day of the week - Wednesday!

--------------------------

How do we know He was resurrected BEFORE the weekly Sabbath (Saturday) ENDED?

Matthew 28: 1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

(Some versions read: "After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week.... But this does not mean that Yeshua rose on a Sunday, because in "Old Testament" times (and according to the Hebrew calendar), a new day began at sundown - yet "daytime" began at sunrise. Therefore we can't fully take what is expressed in English to imply exact times. The bottom line is that, by the time the two women arrived at Yeshua's tomb just after sunset Saturday, or just after sunrise Sunday, Yeshua was already nowhere to be found!)

As shown above, the Scriptures - read in context - are abundantly clear as to when our Savior died; when He was buried; and that His resurrection would have been 3 days and 3 nights later. He did not rise on Sunday, and He never said to change His Sabbath to the first day of the week. Therefore, there is no reason for the mainstream Christian church to adhere to the Sunday Sabbath tradition.

While many argue the exact meaning of "3 days and 3 nights" in an attempt to show that Friday-Sunday meets "3 days and 3 nights" or that the day of the crucifixion counts as the "1st day", or that "any part of a Hebrew day counts as a day", there is a curious fact very often overlooked. Yeshua said "A wicked and adulterous generation is asking for a sign? It will certainly not be given a sign — except the sign of Yonah! 'With that he left them and went off' ", (Matthew 12:39; Matthew 16:4; Luke 11:29). Three days and 3 night is the only sign! How can we diminish its meaning and impact by arguing over this only YHWH-given sign? It seems to be the only measure by which to assess the full meaning of the Messiah's relationship to us, as our Passover blood substitution.

http://therefinersfire.org/resurrection1.htm

Edited by Justin Adams
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15 hours ago, Abdicate said:

You need to open your eyes and see the truth.

I have seen the truth for over 20 years now. The problem with the YLT is that it takes some things TOO literally, when these things are not always meant to be taken so. 

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Could it be that "the first of the Sabbaths" refers to the Yearly Wave offering Sabbath? That would be called "the first of the Sabbaths", after the weekly Sabbath in the month of Nisan following Passover. (on the day after the weekly Sabbath as laid down in Deut. and Lev. ) and then count 7 more plus one day to Pentecost0Shavuot.

Therefore, the biblical translation "first day of the week," is incorrect.  The original Greek says "first of the Sabbaths," which refers to the wave sheaf offering, a day which occurs once a year as stated in God's calendar! 

Deuteronomy 16:9  You shall count seven weeks for yourself; you shall begin to count seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the standing grain.
Deuteronomy 16:10  Then you shall celebrate the Feast of Weeks [Shavuot/Pentecost] to YHWH your God with a tribute of a freewill offering of your hand, which you shall give just as  YHWH your God blesses you;
Leviticus 23:15  'You shall also count for yourselves from the next day after the Sabbath, from the day when you brought in the Wave Sheaf Offering; there shall be seven perfect Sabbaths.
Leviticus 23:16  You shall count fifty days to the NEXT day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall present a new grain offering to YHWH.

 

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From the first of the Sabbaths you count seven more (49 days) plus one day to Pentecost = 50 days.

All correct translation say "first Sabbath".
I.e. Nisan is the first month and therefore the first of the Sabbaths are to be counted towards Pentecost.

added: which ever Sabbath you choose, if it says on the FIRST OF THE SABBATHS, then it is a Sabbath and not the 1st day of the week. It is by definition a Sabbath.

Edited by Justin Adams
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This thread is titled "Saturday or Sunday" -- it is about the weekly Sabbath... not yearly feast days.

 

There is only one Bible Sabbath in terms of a weekly day of rest. We see it in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:11 reminds us that it is the same Sabbath that we see in Exodus 20. And in Acts 13, Acts 17:3-5, Acts 18:4-5... it is still the same term for Sabbath.. No change.

What is more Isaiah 66:23 says it is that same Exodus 20 Sabbath that will be kept by "all mankind" for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

 

This is irrefutable.

 

 

Edited by BobRyan
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On 10/26/2017 at 12:46 AM, inchrist said:

The Pharisees were adding laws to what they constituted as "works" that breaks the sabbath, exactly how you created a law that if I start my car on the sabbath that constitutes work and therefore breaking the sabbath....creating man made legalism.

Hence the Pharisees were shocked to see Christ heal people and glean from the field on the sabbath because it  undermined their added legalistic nonsense to the sabbath.....

This is how you observe the sabbath, which I have given to you 4 times now.

(Isaiah) 58:13 If you turn away your foot from the sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my 
holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of YHWH, honourable; and shall 
honour him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking 
your own words:

 I will break it down for you

(Mark) 3:4 And he said unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath 
days, or to do evil? To save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.


 (Luke) 6:9 Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it 
lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? To save life, or to destroy 
it?
 

Christ said to do good & save life on the Sabbath.

Good point.

 

A lot to be said in favor of that sola-scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice.

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Hello and peace. Keep the Sabbath. A commandment.

For those of you fighting against keeping the law and the obvious abhorrence you show towards its keeping; i.e. denying the Sabbath of God and man. May I remind you that God Himself kept the law AFTER Yeshua was raised. He carried on with His Pentecost etc.

Now if it were true that the Law was done away with when Yeshua dies, and then was Resurrected, how come God still fulfilled His Feasts and Seasons and carried on with SHAVUOT... (Pentecost)?

Oh dear! Maybe someone ought to tell God that it has all been done away with...

Edited by Justin Adams
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Some of the Fathers may have been erroneously mistranslated and quoted. Here is what they said.

It may also be of interest to note how the less-accepted “longer” version of Ignatius’ letter was translated in the Ante-Nicene Fathers as follows: “Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner...”(Ignatius (Pseudo). The Epistle to the Magnesians (longer recension). Excerpted from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1. Edited by Alexander Roberts & James Donaldson. American Edition, 1885. Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody (MA), 1999 printing, p.62).

This assessment is also consistent with later testimony from Jerome who mentioned that the Sabbath-keeping Christians he ran into did not adhere to the Jewish traditions--in other words, although they kept the Sabbath, the Nazarenes did not keep the Sabbath Judaically.

Jerome 404 a.d. declares:  "On Isaiah 9:1-4
"The Nazarenes, whose opinion I have set forth above, try to explain this passage in the following way: When Christ came and his preaching shone out, the land of Zebulon and Naphtali [the region of Galilee] first of all were freed from the errors of the Scribes and Pharisees and he shook off their shoulders the very heavy yoke of the JEWISH TRADITIONS. Later, however, the preaching became more dominant, that means the preaching was multiplied, through the gospel of the apostle Paul who was the last of all the apostles. And the gospel of Christ shone to the most distant tribes and the way of the whole sea. Finally the whole world, which earlier walked or sat in darkness and was imprisoned in the bonds of idolatry and death, has seen the clear light of the gospel" (p.64).

In this passage, we find that the Nazarene Christians -- like Jesus the Messiah, Peter, James, John and especially Paul -- rejected Jewish traditionalism, invention, and additions to the Torah or Old Testament. They referred to them as the "very heavy yoke of the Jewish traditions."

The Nazarenes existed well into the third century, and were actively engaged in a dialogue -- "heated, no doubt," says Ray Pritz -- with rabbinic Judaism. Pritz adds that the Nazarene Jewish Church was "familiar with the developments within Judaism and rejected the authority of the pharisaic scholars to interpret scripture definitively."

Pritz goes on: "...Nor did they accept as binding on themselves (or on any Jews) the Oral Law as embodied in the Mishnah. These Jewish Christians view Paul and his mission favorably and evidently even accepted -- in theory at least -- the unity of the Church as composed of both Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ...And finally, this group had not lost hope that the Jewish people might yet turn to accept Jesus as the Messiah" (see Ray A. Pritz, Nazarene Jewish Christianity: From the end of the New Testament Period until its disappearance in the Fourth Century, The Magnes Press, Hebrew University, Jerusalem, c.1992, p. 70).

The ancient churches held this belief for a long time of not Judaizing the church, "The ancient Christians were very careful in the observation of Saturday, or the seventh day...It is plain that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the Sabbath as a festival...Athanasius (A.D. 297-373, Bishop of Alexandria) likewise tells us that they held religious assemblies on the Sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. Epiphanius says the same." (Antiquities of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Bk.xx, Ch.3, Sec 1, 66. 1136,1137).  

Ignatius was teaching that the godly prophets, who lived in ancient times, lived in accordance to the ways of Jesus Christ, and not after improper Judaic concepts

There is no doubt that the ancient prophets (such as Isaiah) kept the Sabbath on what we today call Saturday. 

The Bible records that these prophets knew how to keep the Sabbath (and not Barnabas’ eighth day) properly, as a delight for them to be in the LORD (e.g. Isaiah 58:13-14).  Since the ancient prophets did that, Ignatius may be saying that Christians need to keep the Sabbath in accordance with Jesus’ example of doing good on the Sabbath and not be unduly focused on non-biblical restrictions—for, Ignatius says, we are to not live apart from Jesus.  Jesus, of course kept the Sabbath, as part of His way of life.

It is also possible that all Ignatius was doing was the same type of thing that Paul warned about in Colossians 2:16—he was telling Christians to let the “body of Christ” and not others (like those advocating  extra-biblical Jewish practices) tell them how to keep the Sabbath.  He may have simply written this section to help differentiate Christians from Jews in the eyes of both the Christians and the Gentile governments that they tended to be under (distancing Christians from Jews would have been physically advantageous for many Christians at that time).  But regardless of the intended point, Ignatius' Letter to the Magnesians does not advocate doing away with the biblical Sabbath, nor does it show that the Sabbath was being replaced by Sunday nor is a resurrection day implied whatsoever.

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WHO apparently changed it and when?

 

Name, date, proof?

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On 10/26/2017 at 5:34 PM, simplejeff said:

RIGHT ! :)

The Jewish 7th Day Sabbath is Yahweh's 7th Day Sabbath described all through His Word from Genesis 1 THrough Revelation and tne life to come.

The Lord's Day 's**day' was introduced a few hundred years or so after Jesus ascended,  not from God nor from Scripture,

as an alternative and as a way to bring crowds/ multitudes/ under control of one central ruling government (secular and religious) ...

again, the LORDS day is different from the SABBATH

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