Guest shiloh357 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 Just now, Robert William said: You are rejecting scripture, it teaches the opposite. Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. No, I am rejecting your sloppy handling of Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert William Posted October 27, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 612 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 93 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 27, 2017 Just now, shiloh357 said: No, I am rejecting your sloppy handling of Scripture. Total Depravity is the doctrine that fallen man is completely touched by sin and that he is completely a sinner. He is not as bad as he could be, but in all areas of his being, body, soul, spirit, mind, emotions, etc., he is touched by sin. In that sense he is totally depraved. Because man is depraved, nothing good can come out of him (Rom. 3:10-12), and God must account the righteousness of Christ to him. This righteousness is obtainable only through faith in Christ and what He did on the cross. Total depravity is generally believed by the Calvinist groups and rejected by the Arminian groups. Verses used in support of total depravity are as following. Please examined them to see if you think the doctrine is Biblical or not. It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness (John 3:19), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20). The unbeliever CAN respond to God. His response will be in accordance to Scripture that says that he cannot do good, is a hater of God, is full of evil, etc. Therefore, we conclude that his free will response will be to reject God, according to the limits described by Scripture itself. How is it possible that an unbeliever who cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), who does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), and who is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:14-20), simply "chooses" God? It is God who appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26). It is God who causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), draws people to Himself (John 6:44, 65), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30) and adoption (Eph. 1:5) according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13), and works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29). Man Apart from God Jer. 13:23, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil." Rom. 5:10, "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Rom. 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so." Total Depravity Verses Gen. 6:5, "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen. 8:21, "And the Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth." Ecc. 7:29, “Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.” Micah 7:4, "The best of them is like a briar, The most upright like a thorn hedge. The day when you post a watchman, Your punishment will come. Then their confusion will occur." John 3:27, "John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven." Verses against free will choice of sinners: John 1:13, "who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Rom. 9:16, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." "the man" is singular Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert William Posted October 27, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 612 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 93 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: Romans 9 isn't about salvation, but about how God uses us for His purposes. Making a choice is not a work of the flesh. The Bible is very clear about what constitutes a "work" from the vantage point of salvation. We are not saved by "works" in terms of personal merit or self-righteousness. By your logic, repentance would be a "work." Or, believing would be "work." Simply saying yes to Jesus is not a "work" according to how "work" is theologically defined in Scripture. Because you are rejecting scripture we are going around in circles, scripture says the natural man considers the gospel to be foolishness, but YOU say man can make a free will choice. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Robert William said: Total Depravity is the doctrine that fallen man is completely touched by sin and that he is completely a sinner. He is not as bad as he could be, but in all areas of his being, body, soul, spirit, mind, emotions, etc., he is touched by sin. In that sense he is totally depraved. Because man is depraved, nothing good can come out of him (Rom. 3:10-12), and God must account the righteousness of Christ to him. This righteousness is obtainable only through faith in Christ and what He did on the cross. Total depravity is generally believed by the Calvinist groups and rejected by the Arminian groups. The reason we reject total depravity as taught by Calvinists, is that Calvinism teaches that man must first be regenerated in order to be able to respond to the Gospel. A person is "totally depraved" until he is "regenerated" so that He can respond to the Gospel and be saved. The Bible NEVER uses "regeneration" in that manner. "Regeneration" is what happens when a person is saved and believes the Gospel. It is not a prerequisite to salvation. Furthermore, according to Calvinism, God only regenerates the ones He chose to be elect. Again, the Bible knows no such doctrine. Calvinism is a theological teaching, not a biblical teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Robert William said: Because you are rejecting scripture we are going around in circles, scripture says the natural man considers the gospel to be foolishness, but YOU say man can make a free will choice. 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. I am not rejecting Scripture at all. I am rejecting your false teachings about the Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert William Posted October 27, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 612 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 93 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 27, 2017 1 minute ago, shiloh357 said: I am not rejecting Scripture at all. I am rejecting your false teachings about the Scripture. Scripture says the natural man considers the gospel to be foolishness, but YOU say man can make a free will choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 Just now, Robert William said: Scripture says the natural man considers the gospel to be foolishness, but YOU say man can make a free will choice. I said that Paul is speaking in a general sense. I know people who thought it was foolishness, but over time, still got saved. So just because a person thinks it is foolishness today, doesn't mean that over time, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, that his mind won't change, later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert William Posted October 27, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 612 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 93 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 27, 2017 1 minute ago, shiloh357 said: I said that Paul is speaking in a general sense. I know people who thought it was foolishness, but over time, still got saved. So just because a person thinks it is foolishness today, doesn't mean that over time, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, that his mind won't change, later on. I think you need to study about the depravity of man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert William Posted October 27, 2017 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 612 Content Per Day: 0.25 Reputation: 93 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: I said that Paul is speaking in a general sense. I know people who thought it was foolishness, but over time, still got saved. So just because a person thinks it is foolishness today, doesn't mean that over time, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, that his mind won't change, later on. Total Depravity is the doctrine that fallen man is completely touched by sin and that he is completely a sinner. He is not as bad as he could be, but in all areas of his being, body, soul, spirit, mind, emotions, etc., he is touched by sin. In that sense he is totally depraved. Because man is depraved, nothing good can come out of him (Rom. 3:10-12), and God must account the righteousness of Christ to him. This righteousness is obtainable only through faith in Christ and what He did on the cross. Total depravity is generally believed by the Calvinist groups and rejected by the Arminian groups. Verses used in support of total depravity are as following. Please examined them to see if you think the doctrine is Biblical or not. It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness (John 3:19), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20). The unbeliever CAN respond to God. His response will be in accordance to Scripture that says that he cannot do good, is a hater of God, is full of evil, etc. Therefore, we conclude that his free will response will be to reject God, according to the limits described by Scripture itself. How is it possible that an unbeliever who cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), who does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), and who is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:14-20), simply "chooses" God? It is God who appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Eph. 1:4), calls according to His purpose (2 Tim. 1:9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thess. 2:13-14), grants the act of believing (Phil. 1:29), grants repentance (2 Tim. 2:24-26). It is God who causes us to be born again (1 Pet. 1:3), draws people to Himself (John 6:44, 65), predestines us to salvation (Rom. 8:29-30) and adoption (Eph. 1:5) according to His purpose (Eph. 1:11), makes us born again not by our will but by His will (John 1:12-13), and works faith in the believer (John 6:28-29). Man Apart from God Jer. 13:23, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil." Rom. 5:10, "For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Rom. 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so." Total Depravity Verses Gen. 6:5, "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Gen. 8:21, "And the Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth." Ecc. 7:29, “Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices.” Micah 7:4, "The best of them is like a briar, The most upright like a thorn hedge. The day when you post a watchman, Your punishment will come. Then their confusion will occur." John 3:27, "John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven." Verses against free will choice of sinners: John 1:13, "who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." Rom. 9:16, "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." "the man" is singular Rom. 9:18, "So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 27, 2017 Share Posted October 27, 2017 Just now, Robert William said: I think you need to study about the depravity of man. I understand that man is depraved. I am addressing the Calvinistic false teaching on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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