pretrib Timing of the Rapture

[Psalms37:4]

23 hours ago, Diaste said:

What? Rome isn't mentioned in scripture as succeeding the Precious Metal Empires. The succession is as follows: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Diadochi. Obviously no kingdom is mentioned as succeeding Rome because Rome isn't mentioned in biblical prophecy.

The Diadochi is not the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 nor is it a new empire. The Diadochi is the Greek empire who were the successors to Alexander after his death. It's the same kingdom. The prophecy of Daniel 2 were about 4 different kingdoms, not the rulers of those kingdoms.

Alexander's successors: the Diadochi

http://www.livius.org/articles/concept/diadochi/

The Diadochi (/daɪˈædəkaɪ/; plural of Latin Diadochus, from Greek: Διάδοχοι, Diádokhoi, "successors") were the rival generals, families, and friends of Alexander the Great who fought for control over his empire after his death in 323 BC. The Wars of the Diadochi mark the beginning of the Hellenistic period from the Mediterranean to the Indus River Valley

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diadochi#Kingdoms_of_the_Diadochi_.28275.E2.80.9330_BC.29

 

Daniel 2:36-44 New King James Version (NKJV)

³⁶ “This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. ³⁷ You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; ³⁸ and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. ³⁹ But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. ⁴⁰ And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. ⁴¹ Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. ⁴² And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. ⁴³ As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. ⁴⁴ And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

 

If you make the Diadochi the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2, you'll have a problem conflicting scripture.

~From Daniel 2:41-43, the two groups of people that mingled were the Romans (Iron) and the Jews (Clay).

~In Daniel 2:44, God sets up a new kingdom, one that last forever and never be destroy. This is the kingdom of God, Jesus and the gospel. 

Under the rule of which empire did Jesus established God's kingdom, the Romans or the Diadochi? Who literally crucified Christ on the cross?

 

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And this is usually where they all go off the rails. There is no basis for concluding Rome here. The fourth kingdom is not named where the first three are specific. Rome did not directly succeed Greece, the Diadochi did as specifically stated in Dan 8, "21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power." When Greece falls it is not Rome that comes next but the 'four notable ones'. From history we know that when Alexander died the Grecian kingdom was divided. Before Antigonus, Cassander, Ptolemy and Seleucid consolidated the remnants the Grecian empire was fractured into hundreds of satrapies. Out of that mess came the four empires of the great generals. This is the succession after Alexander, not Rome.

Well, now I know where your confusion lies after reading this. You think the Diadochi is the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 because you think Daniel 8 is a prophecy of the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2. This is the cause of your error.

Only the dream from Nebuchadnezzar was a vision of kingdoms of the past, 4 ancient kingdoms. That's it, nothing else. This is also where a lot of people go off rails associating Daniel 7 & 8 with Daniel 2. Huge error! All other dreams and visions in his book are those of Daniel. And all others are prophecies of the distance future, the latter days during the time of God's wrath, our near future. 

Daniel 8:15-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁵ Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. ¹⁶ And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.” ¹⁷ So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

¹⁸ Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. ¹⁹ And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. ²⁰ The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. ²¹ And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. ²² As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

²³ “And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
²⁴ His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.

²⁵ “Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.

²⁶ “And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.”

 

You guys need to fully understand this and stop mixing Daniel's dream with that of  Nebuchadnezzar's dream as one in the same prophecy.

1a) In Daniel 2, it was Nebuchadnezzar who had the dream.

1b) In Daniel 7, it was Daniel who had the dream.

2a) In Daniel 2, Nebuchadnezzar was the one who didn't understood his dream.

2b) In Daniel 7, Daniel was the one who didn't understood his dream.

3a) In Daniel 2, Daniel revealed to Nebuchadnezzar his dream.

3b) In Daniel 7, it was the angel Gabriel who revealed to Daniel his dream.

Two different events, not the same thing. How can people continue to make the same error assuming the 4 beasts in Daniel's dream of Dan 7 with that of the 4 kingdoms in Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Dan 2? It's impossible they're the same dream as Daniel understood Nebuchadnezzar's dream but not his own. 

In Daniel 8, Daniel had the vision, not Nebuchadnezzar. Again this has nothing to do with the 4 kingdoms in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. And in chapter 8, Gabriel numerously told Daniel this is a vision of the distant future during a time of God's indignation.

Daniel 8:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a vision appeared to me—to me, Daniel—after the one that appeared to me the first time. ² I saw in the vision, and it so happened while I was looking, that I was in Shushan, the citadel, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in the vision that I was by the River Ulai.

 

By the way, without having to appear to be I'm boosting, I know the prophecy of Daniel 8 very well too. It's a huge clue revealing the 3rd and 4th beasts of Daniel 7. Many people have figured out the 4th beast but the 3rd is a mystery for most. The ram and goat are another figurative figure of the 3rd and 4th beasts during the second half of the tribulation when both clash with one another. It'll make a lot more senses to readers if I fully explain them with the videos I have. Let me just say it'll click for a lot of people. They're really right in front of our noses and can be easily solved if readers would follow only the bible and not cloud their decisions with other people's interpretation off the net.

 

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A dozen newspaper clippings does not make a good case for interpretation of biblical prophecy. If the article has some manner of alignment with prophecy, well and good. The above responses show the futility of such efforts. But let me give you an example of prophecy come true. Or at least a striking connection between prophecy and current events. You can read the article for yourself, the connection follows:

Graeme Wood reported in his article in New Republic: "...the Bahraini cleric Turki al-Bin’ali, cites a saying attributed to Muhammad that predicts a total of twelve caliphs before the end of the world. Bin’ali considers only seven of the caliphs of history legitimate. That makes Baghdadi the eighth out of twelve..." So the now deceased cleric Bin'ali has said Baghdadi is the 8th legitimate caliph. This is based on Bin'ali's research and the requirements for a legitimate caliph. One of the big factors is Qurayshi ancestry.  Islamic prophecy says 12 legitimate caliphs will appear before the end, all from the Quraysh tribe. But that isn't the interesting part. Rev 17:11, "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition." 

Do you see the parallel? Scripture says the beast is, "...the eighth, and is of the seven..." Baghdadi is the 8th and is of the seven, at least according to Baghdadi. Through history every world leader has been tagged as the AC. Every Pope, American presidents, English royalty, the list goes on. Never heard one described exactly as scripture describes the beast, "...the eighth, and is of the seven..."

 

Not how the beast comes to power. He's not coming to power through clever oration, expensive suits, deep insight into military, social, political, or economic issues. Not by military or financial power nor the backing of world governing bodies (as if). The beast rises by supernatural means through great spiritual power as stated in Rev 13.

Well no, you don't know the extent of my research. That was just one small portion. My primary source comes from the bible. And it does NOT point to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as the beast. Use something like this list. There's more additional info on the a/c in other parts of the bible.

http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/fereday/ANTICHRS.html

Characteristics of Anti-Christ in the words of Scripture.

W. W. Fereday.

1. His moral characteristics are these.
Isaiah 14:14 . . He shall say in his heart, I will be like the Most High.
Dan. 8:25 . . He shall stand up against the Prince of princes.
Dan. 11:36 . . He shall exalt himself above every god.
2 Thess. 2:4 . . He shall exalt himself " above all that is called God."
2 Thess. 2:4 . He shall show himself that he is God.
1 John 2:22 . . He shall deny both the Father and the Son.
Rev. 13:6 . . He shall open his mouth in blasphemy against God.
Rev. 17:3 . . He shall be full of names of blasphemy.

2. The extent of his power. 
Isaiah 14:16 . . He shall make the earth to tremble, and shall shake kingdoms.
Isaiah 14:17 . . He shall make the world as a wilderness.
Dan. 7:25 . . Times and laws shall be given into his hand.
Dan. 8:9 . . He shall wax exceeding great.
Dan. 8:24 . . His power shall be mighty. . . . He shall destroy wonderfully. 
Dan. 11:36 . . He shall do according to his will.
Dan. 11:40 . . He shall enter into the countries and overflow.
Dan. 11:42 . He shall stretch forth his hand upon the countries.
2 Thess. 2:9 . . His coming shall be with all power.
Rev. 13:7 . . Power shall be given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev. 17:13 . . The ten kings shall give their strength and power to him.

3. His power will be supported by miracles. 
2 Thess. 2:9 . . His coming shall be after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders.
Rev. 13:12 . . He that ministers in his presence shall do great wonders, so that he shall make fire come down from heaven on the earth, in the sight of men, and shall deceive them that dwell upon the earth by means of these miracles which he shall have power to do.
Rev. 13:15 . . He shall have power to give life to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

4. His reception on the earth
Rev 13:8 . . All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev. 13:15 . . Whosoever will not worship the image of the beast shall be killed
Rev. 17:8 . . All whose names are not written in the book of life shall wonder.
John 5:43 . . If another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

5. The place of his manifestation in blasphemy.
Isaiah 14:13 . . He will sit on the mount of the congregation, on the sides of the north.
Dan. 8:11 . . He will take away the daily sacrifice.
Dan. 11:45 . . He will plant the tabernacles of his palace on the glorious holy mountain.
2 Thess. 2:4 . . He will sit in the temple of God.

6. He is named-
Isaiah 14:12 . . "Lucifer," as blasphemously assuming Christ's character of " the morning star."
Isaiah 14:4 . . "The King of Babylon."
Isaiah 10:5 . . "Asshur," or "Assyria," as being king over that country.
Dan. 7:20 . . "The Horn that has eyes," as denoting intelligence and strength.
Isaiah 30:33 . . "THE KING," for whom Tophet is prepared.

These are his principal names in the Old Testament, where he is always referred to in connection with the Jews. In the New Testament he is called, in contrast to the holiness which is the Church's character, the Man of Sin, or the Wicked One. In Isaiah also he is called the Wicked One."By the breath of his lips He (the Lord) shall slay the Wicked One." Isaiah 11 (quoted in 2 Thess. 2) In John he is called "the Antichrist," in his special character of opposition to Christ. In the Revelation he is called the Beast, as denoting his moral estimate in the sight of Heaven.

7. He will be destroyed by no mere human agency. 
Dan. 8:25 . . He shall be broken without hand.
Isaiah 11:4 . . . The Lord with the breath of his lips shall slay the wicked one.
2 Thess. 2:8 . . The Lord shall consume him with the breath of his lips, and with the brightness of his coming.
Rev. 19:15, 20. When He comes forth who shall tread the wine-press of wrath, the Beast is taken, and cast alive into the lake of fire.

The following connections may also be found useful:

1. Between Daniel 8. and 9. 
8:25 . . . By peace he shall destroy many.
9:27 . . . He (the Prince that shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many.
8:11 . . . He shall take away the daily sacrifice.
9:27 . . . He shall cause the sacrifice to cease.
8:19 . . . He shall prosper in the latter end of the indignation.
9:27 . . . . . . . . till that determined is poured on the desolator.

2. Between Dan. 8 and 11. 
8:9 . . . . He waxes great towards the pleasant land.
11:41 . . . He enters into the glorious land.
8:17 . . . At the time of the end shall be the vision.
9:40, 41 . . . At the time of the end shall he enter.
8:19, 24 . . . He prospers in the last end of the indignation.
11:36 . . . . . He shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished.

Between Dan. 7 and 11.
7:25 He shall speak great words against the Most High.
11:36. . . . He shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods.
7:25 He shall change times and laws.
11:37, 38 . . . He shall not regard the God of his fathers, but honour another.
7:22 He shall continue until the saints possess the kingdom.
11:36 . . . . . he shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished.

 

The bible mostly calls him the Assyrian in the old testament. The bible describes him as the invader from the north. The bible tells us he comes by peace and enters peacefully.

  

Revelation 6:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

6 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” ² And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

 

You see the bow in verse 2? That's not a weapon of war. It's a bow without arrows. It doesn't even say he held a bow, like a weapon. Look up other definitions of bow. It's an act of submission, yielding. When he comes by peace is what the bow means. When he establishes himself amongst the people, then he'll be given authority to reign (a crown given to him). That's how he approached his country and became president. He's now approaching the Middle East using the same tactic. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bow

1: to cease from competition or resistance :submit, yield

• refusing to bow to the inevitable
•  —John O'Hara

; also :to suffer defeat 

• bowed to the champion

2: to bend the head, body, or knee in reverence, submission, or shame 

• Bow before the king.

 

• bowed her head in shame

3: to incline the head or body in salutation or assentor to acknowledge applause 

• bowing to the audience

 

Don't use the prophecies in the Quran to find the biblical antichrist. They're backwards and think the a/c is our Jesus.

 

EDIT EDIT EDIT! Wow I've made a ton of writing errors, went back to correct them and still not sure I've gotten them all.

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Psalms37:4 said:

The Diadochi is not the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 nor is it a new empire. The Diadochi is the Greek empire who were the successors to Alexander after his death. It's the same kingdom. The prophecy of Daniel 2 were about 4 different kingdoms, not the rulers of those kingdoms.

Is that so? So when Daniel says Nebuchadnezzar is the head of Gold it's not about the rulers? Even the beast is an individual and is mentioned as 'a man' several times.

If you make the Diadochi the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2, you'll have a problem conflicting scripture.

I'm not making the Diadochi the 4th empire. The succession from Alexander is the Diadochi and the 4th kingdom is Islam. An organization that has existed for many centuries to today.

~From Daniel 2:41-43, the two groups of people that mingled were the Romans (Iron) and the Jews (Clay).

There is no evidence in scripture for this contention. It's made up. Daniel only says there is a mingling, not who mingled. You have proof for the identities of the mingled? Other than your personal belief, that is.

~In Daniel 2:44, God sets up a new kingdom, one that last forever and never be destroy. This is the kingdom of God, Jesus and the gospel. 

True.

Under the rule of which empire did Jesus established God's kingdom, the Romans or the Diadochi. Who literally crucified Christ on the cross?

This is just a rationalization and not proof. Biblical criteria for the identification of the Iron kingdom have nothing to do with an empire extant in Jesus time. You do realize the Jews demanded Jesus' death after the Roman governor found him innocent? 

 

Well, now I know where your confusion lies after reading this. You think the Diadochi is the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 because you think Daniel 8 is a prophecy of the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2. This is the cause of your error.

No. This simply proves succession after Alexander. The 4th empire rises from the Diadochi as the Lord says, "...and for it (the great horn) came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.  And out of one of them came forth a little horn (the beast) ..."

Only the dream from Nebuchadnezzar was a vision of kingdoms of the past, 4 ancient kingdoms. That's it, nothing else. This is also where a lot of people go off rails associating Daniel 7 & 8 with Daniel 2. Huge error! All other dreams and visions in his book are those of Daniel. And all others are prophecies of the distance future, the latter days during the time of God's wrath, our near future. 

You can say what you like but without proof it's nothing. Actually prove what you say by offering evidence that only Daniel 2 is a vision of the past kingdoms. Use biblical proof against associating Daniel 7 and 8 with Daniel 2. That should prove to be quite difficult as proving nonexistence is an impossibility. The opposite is true in this case. Daniel 8 is associated with Daniel 2 as Greece is the Bronze Kingdom and the rough goat in Daniel 8 is Alexander. This is a matter of history as we all know Greece defeated the Medo-Persian Empire and the Diadochi succeeded Alexander. The association is quite strong. In reality none of the visions belong to Daniel. They are visions of the Lord given to Daniel.

Daniel 8:15-26 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁵ Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. ¹⁶ And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.” ¹⁷ So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

¹⁸ Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. ¹⁹ And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. ²⁰ The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. ²¹ And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. ²² As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.

This part happened in the distant past. From ancient history we know this is true. The idea this vision refers to the end is to give us clues as to where the beast comes from. Only from the below, where scripture states, "And in the latter time..." is where the 4th kingdom is contemporary. The previous is our guide for discerning the identity of the 4th empire at the end of the age. Now its interesting that scripture says, "...of their kingdom..." because all four of these still exist and the beast, little horn (described below) comes from one of them. Don't you find it intriguing the Lord describes the  facial features of the beast? This is a clue to identification. The beast will not have soft, regular facial features.

 

²³ “And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
²⁴ His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.

²⁵ “Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.

²⁶ “And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.”

 

You guys need to fully understand this and stop confusing the Daniel's dream from Nebuchadnezzar dream as one in the same prophecy.

1a) In Daniel 2, it was Nebuchadnezzar who had the dream.

1b) In Daniel 7, it was Daniel who had the dream.

2a) In Daniel 2, Nebuchadnezzar was the one who didn't understood his dream.

2b) In Daniel 7, Daniel was the one who didn't understood his dream.

3a) In Daniel 2, Daniel revealed to Nebuchadnezzar his dream.

3b) In Daniel 7, it was the angel Gabriel who revealed to Daniel his dream.

Two different events, not the same thing. How can people continue to make the error assuming the 4 beasts in Daniel's dream as the 4 kingdoms in Nebuchadnezzar's dream? It's impossible they're the same dream as Daniel understood Nebuchadnezzar's dream but not his own? 

The above is not coherent in my opinion. The source of both the dreams and the interpretation is Almighty God, not mortal man. Neither the king nor the prophet had anything to do with the dreams or the interpretation except to act as vessels and a mouth piece. Not sure you have a good grasp of how prophecy works in origin, interpretation or fulfillment.

 

By the way, without having to appear to be I'm boosting, I know the prophecy of Daniel 8 very well too. It's a huge clue revealing the 3rd and 4th beasts of Daniel 7. Many people have figured out the 4th beast but the 3rd is a mystery for most. The ram and goat are another figurative figure of the 3rd and 4th beasts during the second half of the tribulation when both clash with one another. It'll make a lot more senses to readers if I fully explain them with the videos I have. Let me just say it'll click for a lot of people. They're really right in front of our noses and can be easily solved if readers would follow only the bible and not cloud their decisions with other people's interpretation off the net.

 

Well no, you don't know the extent of my research. That was just one small portion. My primary source comes from the bible.

And it point to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as the beast.

Use something like this list. There's more additional info on the a/c in other parts of the bible.

http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/fereday/ANTICHRS.html

Characteristics of Anti-Christ in the words of Scripture.

W. W. Fereday.

1. His moral characteristics are these.
Isaiah 14:14 . . He shall say in his heart, I will be like the Most High.
Dan. 8:25 . . He shall stand up against the Prince of princes.
Dan. 11:36 . . He shall exalt himself above every god.
2 Thess. 2:4 . . He shall exalt himself " above all that is called God."
2 Thess. 2:4 . He shall show himself that he is God.
1 John 2:22 . . He shall deny both the Father and the Son.
Rev. 13:6 . . He shall open his mouth in blasphemy against God.
Rev. 17:3 . . He shall be full of names of blasphemy.

2. The extent of his power. 
Isaiah 14:16 . . He shall make the earth to tremble, and shall shake kingdoms.
Isaiah 14:17 . . He shall make the world as a wilderness.
Dan. 7:25 . . Times and laws shall be given into his hand.
Dan. 8:9 . . He shall wax exceeding great.
Dan. 8:24 . . His power shall be mighty. . . . He shall destroy wonderfully. 
Dan. 11:36 . . He shall do according to his will.
Dan. 11:40 . . He shall enter into the countries and overflow.
Dan. 11:42 . He shall stretch forth his hand upon the countries.
2 Thess. 2:9 . . His coming shall be with all power.
Rev. 13:7 . . Power shall be given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev. 17:13 . . The ten kings shall give their strength and power to him.

3. His power will be supported by miracles. 
2 Thess. 2:9 . . His coming shall be after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders.
Rev. 13:12 . . He that ministers in his presence shall do great wonders, so that he shall make fire come down from heaven on the earth, in the sight of men, and shall deceive them that dwell upon the earth by means of these miracles which he shall have power to do.
Rev. 13:15 . . He shall have power to give life to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

4. His reception on the earth
Rev 13:8 . . All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev. 13:15 . . Whosoever will not worship the image of the beast shall be killed
Rev. 17:8 . . All whose names are not written in the book of life shall wonder.
John 5:43 . . If another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

5. The place of his manifestation in blasphemy.
Isaiah 14:13 . . He will sit on the mount of the congregation, on the sides of the north.
Dan. 8:11 . . He will take away the daily sacrifice.
Dan. 11:45 . . He will plant the tabernacles of his palace on the glorious holy mountain.
2 Thess. 2:4 . . He will sit in the temple of God.

6. He is named-
Isaiah 14:12 . . "Lucifer," as blasphemously assuming Christ's character of " the morning star."
Isaiah 14:4 . . "The King of Babylon."
Isaiah 10:5 . . "Asshur," or "Assyria," as being king over that country.
Dan. 7:20 . . "The Horn that has eyes," as denoting intelligence and strength.
Isaiah 30:33 . . "THE KING," for whom Tophet is prepared.

These are his principal names in the Old Testament, where he is always referred to in connection with the Jews. In the New Testament he is called, in contrast to the holiness which is the Church's character, the Man of Sin, or the Wicked One. In Isaiah also he is called the Wicked One."By the breath of his lips He (the Lord) shall slay the Wicked One." Isaiah 11 (quoted in 2 Thess. 2) In John he is called "the Antichrist," in his special character of opposition to Christ. In the Revelation he is called the Beast, as denoting his moral estimate in the sight of Heaven.

7. He will be destroyed by no mere human agency. 
Dan. 8:25 . . He shall be broken without hand.
Isaiah 11:4 . . . The Lord with the breath of his lips shall slay the wicked one.
2 Thess. 2:8 . . The Lord shall consume him with the breath of his lips, and with the brightness of his coming.
Rev. 19:15, 20. When He comes forth who shall tread the wine-press of wrath, the Beast is taken, and cast alive into the lake of fire.

The following connections may also be found useful:

1. Between Daniel 8. and 9. 
8:25 . . . By peace he shall destroy many.
9:27 . . . He (the Prince that shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many.
8:11 . . . He shall take away the daily sacrifice.
9:27 . . . He shall cause the sacrifice to cease.
8:19 . . . He shall prosper in the latter end of the indignation.
9:27 . . . . . . . . till that determined is poured on the desolator.

2. Between Dan. 8 and 11. 
8:9 . . . . He waxes great towards the pleasant land.
11:41 . . . He enters into the glorious land.
8:17 . . . At the time of the end shall be the vision.
9:40, 41 . . . At the time of the end shall he enter.
8:19, 24 . . . He prospers in the last end of the indignation.
11:36 . . . . . He shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished.

Between Dan. 7 and 11.
7:25 He shall speak great words against the Most High.
11:36. . . . He shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods.
7:25 He shall change times and laws.
11:37, 38 . . . He shall not regard the God of his fathers, but honour another.
7:22 He shall continue until the saints possess the kingdom.
11:36 . . . . . he shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished.

 

The bible mostly calls him the Assyrian in the old testament. The bible describes him as the invader from the north. The bible tells us he comes by peace and enters peacefully.

What in the above list proves your point? Any person that fulfills the above is the beast. How does the list bolster your contention? It really seems that you provide a ton of info hoping to overwhelm your audience while offering little in the way of cogent argument and sound conclusion. My sense is that you want us to believe you on your say so. Not going to happen here.

  

Revelation 6:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

6 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” ² And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

 

You see the bow in verse 2? That's not a weapon of war. It's a bow without arrows. It doesn't even say he held a bow, like a weapon. Look up other definitions of bow. It's an act of submission, yielding. When he comes by peace is what the bow means. When he establishes himself amongst the people, then he'll be given authority to reign (a crown given to him). That's how he approached his country and became president. He's now approaching the Middle East using the same tactic. 

I think your research is scant and I don't believe your primary source is the bible. Here's the straight dope on the 'bow' in Rev 6. First, 'toxon' appears only once in the NT, in Rev 6:2. Second, it's a noun sans gender. Third, it's either a bow (that propels arrows) or an arrow. Fourth, 'to bow' as in submission, in the Greek NT is 'kampto' and means 'to bend' notably appearing here; Romans 14:11, "For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." depicting the act of submission to the Lord Most High. You are trying to promote some twisted, personal dogma; and failing.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bow

1: to cease from competition or resistance :submit, yield

• refusing to bow to the inevitable
•  —John O'Hara

; also :to suffer defeat 

• bowed to the champion

2: to bend the head, body, or knee in reverence, submission, or shame 

• Bow before the king.

 

• bowed her head in shame

3: to incline the head or body in salutation or assentor to acknowledge applause 

• bowing to the audience

 

Don't use the prophecies in the Quran to find the biblical antichrist. They're backwards and think the a/c is our Jesus.

What are you talking about? Show me where I used the Quran to find the beast.

 

 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

" An open minded reading of this verse will immediately reveal there are three actors in this theater of battle"

 

There are only two .... the king of the north and the king of the south

The king of the north is the human little horn Daniel's visions

It's impossible for there to be only two actors in this portion of the narrative. I'll demonstrate. Red text is mine.

Daniel 11

³⁶ And the king shall do according to his will;(The subject, the one called the 'willful king')

and he shall exalt himself,(The subject is now examined in detail through his actions beginning here)

and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. (The subject is certainly blasphemous)

³⁷ Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. (The subject, the willful king, places himself on a pedestal above all things)

³⁸ But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.(The subject has not changed and it's seems he's an avid idolater)

³⁹ Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. (The subject has still not changed. Still the same willful king from verse 36.)

⁴⁰ And (This conjunction means, 'in addition to'. Ergo, in addition to all of the above the following) at the time of the end (happens to the willful king) shall the king of the south push at him(The 'him' here is the same subject from v 36. The willful king.): and (This conjunction means, 'in addition to'. Ergo, in addition to all of the above the following happens to the willful king) the king of the north shall come against him (willful king) like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he (willful king) shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. (Meaning the willful king will win and invade the countries of the North and the South that attacked him. If this were not the case the KOTN would overflow his own country which would not make much sense.)

In fact every time 'he' or 'him' is mentioned from v 36-45 it's the same willful king. In verse 40 who would the KOTS push at? Well, he's pushing at the willful king described from v 36-39, the 'he' in those verses. It's a sentence too early for it to be the KOTN. The only actor from verse 36-39 is the willful king and so is the only king the KOTS could push at, the 'he' from the above verses.

It's okay if you don't want to believe this. You'll see soon enough the powerful actor arise from Mesopotamia.

[WilliamL]

Just now, Diaste said:

Just now, Daniel 11:36 said:

" An open minded reading of this verse will immediately reveal there are three actors in this theater of battle"

 

There are only two .... the king of the north and the king of the south

The king of the north is the human little horn Daniel's visions

It's impossible for there to be only two actors in this portion of the narrative. I'll demonstrate. Red text is mine.

Daniel 11

³⁶ And the king shall do according to his will;(The subject, the one called the 'willful king')

And who is "the King?"  The same king of the north spoken of throughout Daniel 11 -- THE king of the north, the spiritual ruler over the earthly realm. There is no new personage suddenly being proclaimed here in verse 36, or else the definite article "the" would not be used.

[Daniel 11:36]

Only two kings are subject matter .... the king of the north and the king of the south

The king of the north is the human little horn of Daniel

Edited November 13, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[Psalms37:4]

On 11/12/2017 at 3:36 AM, Diaste said:

The Diadochi is not the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 nor is it a new empire. The Diadochi is the Greek empire who were the successors to Alexander after his death. It's the same kingdom. The prophecy of Daniel 2 were about 4 different kingdoms, not the rulers of those kingdoms.

Is that so? So when Daniel says Nebuchadnezzar is the head of Gold it's not about the rulers? Even the beast is an individual and is mentioned as 'a man' several times.

You gotta be kidding me if you need to turn this into a debate. Of course Daniel had to tell Nebuchadnezzar as the head because he was talking directly to him. Did Daniel mentioned the heads of the other 3 succeeding empires? No. Shows a level of desperation if you have to turn this into an argument. 

 

Quote

If you make the Diadochi the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2, you'll have a problem conflicting scripture.

I'm not making the Diadochi the 4th empire. The succession from Alexander is the Diadochi and the 4th kingdom is Islam. An organization that has existed for many centuries to today.

So what was this that you wrote in your previous post? Trying to confuse people?

On 11/11/2017 at 3:34 AM, Diaste said:

What? Rome isn't mentioned in scripture as succeeding the Precious Metal Empires. The succession is as follows: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Diadochi.

 

Quote

Well, now I know where your confusion lies after reading this. You think the Diadochi is the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 because you think Daniel 8 is a prophecy of the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2. This is the cause of your error.

No. This simply proves succession after Alexander. The 4th empire rises from the Diadochi as the Lord says, "...and for it (the great horn) came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.  And out of one of them came forth a little horn (the beast) ..."

Here's more evidence why you're wrong. You're doing the same thing again combining the prophecies of Daniel 8:8 into the prophecies of Daniel 2. 

Daniel 8:8 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁸ Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven.

The entire chapter of Daniel 8 has nothing to do with Daniel 2. Daniel 2 was about past ancient empires. Daniel 8 is a prophecy about the future, way into the future at the time of the tribulation, Daniel's 70th week.

Daniel 8:17 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁷ So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

 

Daniel 8:19 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁹ And he said, “Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.

 

Daniel 8:26 New King James Version (NKJV)

²⁶ “And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.”

Now what part of these verses don't you understand? The angel Gabriel told Daniel three time what he was about to tell him applies to the distance future at the time of the end during God's indignation.

Secondly, the Diadochi was the Greek empire under a different leadership after the death of Alexander. The Diadochi was part of the 3rd kingdom. The 4th kingdom that rose to power after the Greek were the Roman empire.

Roman Empire schema 

The following interpretation represents a traditional view of Jewish and Christian Historicists, Futurists, Dispensationalists, Partial Preterists, and other futuristic Jewish and Christian hybrids, as well as certain Messianic Jews, who typically identify the kingdoms in Daniel (with variations) as:

1. the Babylonian Empire
2. the Medo-Persian Empire
3. the Greek Empire
4. the Roman Empire, with other implications to come later

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_kingdoms_of_Daniel

 

Grecian Empire A Preparation For Rome

The precise fulfillment of prophecy in the Grecian Empire sets the stage for the fourth and final Gentile world power, that of Rome, which dominated the scene at the time Christ was born in Bethlehem. It is this empire which figures largely in the history of the church as well as in prophecy of things to come and constitutes the framework of prophecy related to the nations in the end of the age.

https://bible.org/seriespage/7-kingdom-greece

 

 

 

The statue of the 4th kingdom has two legs. Rome was so big at it's height, it was divided into two halves (2 legs). Is this a mere coincidence? During Rome's decline, the kingdom broke off into 10 kingdoms (10 toes). Is this another mere coincidence?

Daniel 2:33 New King James Version (NKJV)

³³ its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

Daniel 2:42 New King James Version (NKJV)

⁴² And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile.

The Roman Empire grew to be huge.  It covered most of Europe, North Africa, and parts of Asia.  Just getting messages from Rome to the outer parts of the Empire took weeks.  The Empire had become too large to rule effectively.  The outer provinces were pretty much doing whatever they wanted.

Emperor Diocletian was looking for a way to fix this and other problems.  He decided that the only thing to do was to actually break the empire into two pieces. One piece would be the western empire, based in Rome. The other would be the eastern empire, based in Byzantium.  There would be two emperors, one in charge of each piece, working together against outside enemies, but each ruling their half separately.

http://rome.mrdonn.org/twoempires.html

 

The Western Roman Empire was the western part of the Roman Empire which, later, became known as The Holy Roman Empire. By 285 CE the Roman Empire had grown so vast that it was no longer feasible to govern all the provinces from the central seat of Rome. The Emperor Diocletian divided the empire into halves with the Eastern Empire governed out of Byzantium (later Constantinople) and the Western Empire governed from Rome. Both sections were known equally as `The Roman Empire’ although, in time, the Eastern Empire would adopt Greek instead of Latin and would lose much of the character of the traditional Roman Empire.

https://www.ancient.eu/Western_Roman_Empire/

 

Division of Western Rome

The Western Roman Empire was divided into ten parts by 351 to 476 AD where it is located on the Bible Timeline Poster with World History. This era in the history of the Roman Empire lasted for about 125 years, which was from the middle part of the 4th century and up to the last quarter of the 5th century.

https://amazingbibletimeline.com/blog/division-of-west-rome-into-10-parts/

 

After the collapse of Rome in 476 AD, its empire was divided into ten kingdoms, just as Nebuchadnezzar's dream foretold.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/557

 

Quote

I'm not making the Diadochi the 4th empire. The succession from Alexander is the Diadochi and the 4th kingdom is Islam. An organization that has existed for many centuries to today.

No, the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 is not Islam. You should be more upfront and let readers know you're implying ISIS as the 4th kingdom when you say Islam because Islam has numerous references. You should also let readers know you've been telling us Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS is the beast.

A completely false and erroneous interpretation of scripture. ISIS is NOT the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is NOT the beast. 

 

I've figured out your little scheme. You're trying to discredit and eliminated Rome as the 4th kingdom of Daniel 2 with your Diadochi argument and replace Rome with ISIS using a misleading interpretation of Daniel 8 in what you call as evidence.  

History is not on your side, neither is the bible. Evidences from both support Rome where the Jewish people have a great history living under the rule and authority of the Roman Empire during the first coming, not ISIS and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

 

 

 

 

[Psalms37:4]

On 11/12/2017 at 4:17 AM, Diaste said:

It's okay if you don't want to believe this. You'll see soon enough the powerful actor arise from Mesopotamia.

You mean this area of the world is where you think the beast will come from? If so, that's not according to the bible.

 

Hmm? On second thought, that area is probably correct since you're pushing ISIS and Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi as the beast and his empire, and ISIS only conquered Iraq and Syria in the last 3 years.

No wonder you refuse to accept the fact that ISIS is nearing it's elimination after losing all those cities and towns they conquered in Iraq and Syria.

 

 

 

[simplejeff]

20 minutes ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Of course Daniel had to tell Nebuchadnezzar as the head because he was talking directly to him.

Nonsense.  Daniel had no trouble at all telling it as it is, straight to whoever.

Daniel trusting in YAHWEH is one of who is called one of the three great men of faith BY YAHWEH.

 

[Psalms37:4]

2 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Nonsense.  Daniel had no trouble at all telling it as it is, straight to whoever.

Daniel trusting in YAHWEH is one of who is called one of the three great men of faith BY YAHWEH.

Daniel was only talking to Nebuchadnezzar. Why would Daniel need to name the rulers of the other kingdoms?

 

 

 

 

[simplejeff]

28 minutes ago, Psalms37:4 said:

Of course Daniel had to tell Nebuchadnezzar as the head because he was talking directly to him.

Daniel spoke the testimony , the word, of Yahweh.   He did not change it due to any circumstance, including who he was talking to.