Intellectual faith? HELP

[JohnD]

See, I think this is the part that humans have trouble with.

Believe in Jesus and you are saved.

That's it???

Well I feel like I should do more...

And then out comes the long list of additions to the Gospel (which God says nullifies the Gospel).

This was the trouble the Jews had with the Gospel of Grace after so long living by the 613 commandments.

Child-like faith is accepting the Gospel faith in Jesus Christ plus nothing.

[appy]

Faith is simply believing. It is hearing what God has said and believing and trusting him. It isn't rocket science. A person either does or does not believe the gospel ( good news ) Little children believe and trust their parents, when parents tell them things because they know that without question a loving mommy and daddy will keep them safe. They never have to wonder. That is what it means to have child like faith. God has used something the world considers foolish because it doesn't agree with their own philosophies and ideals. God has chosen faith (believing what he says ) as the way to him so that none of us could ever brag in his presence that we got to heaven by our own strength and ideas no matter how brilliant those ideas may be.

When we believe the gospel with sincerity we are assured eternal life, because God's word says that all who come to him through his son, is promised eternal life. He paid the entire cost. The finished work on the cross. He is the perfect and complete sacrifice. Being saved isn't a feeling; it is the knowledge that he has paid the cost for you. God is faithful so we never have to wonder.

1 John 5: 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

When we sincerely believe the gospel in our hearts, the holy spirit assures us with his presence in us. He reminds us of our assurance that we indeed have eternal life. God will never lie to us. We have assurance through a changed life. When we were unbelieving, we didn't care if we were doing the wrong thing. Sinful actions didn't bother us; But after faith, we begin to care more and more about what God thinks of sin and how we might please him instead of pleasing ourselves.

Blaming unbelief on being intellectual is a cop out; an excuse to continue in certain sins that people want to hold onto. God is dealing with man's sins and working on restoring us to himself. That is what the whole bible is about. But if we are set on holding onto any sin, we can not feel at ease on whether we have eternal life because it keeps us from fellowshipping with God. As we fellowship with him, his presence in our changed hearts and minds, assures us we have eternal life. When we come to the cross we must be willing to give up ALL sins, not just some.

[Guest shiloh357]

5 hours ago, AscendedMasters333 said:

Read through everything please:

How can intellectuals have faith like children?

What's the practical process? How do we bypass having faith intellectually, and believe genuinely? 

How is having a childlike faith not also intellectual? 

 

Quote

I know if I had even the slightest sign that I'm saved. My faith would be forever secured in an immovable rock foundation. How do we know we're saved? The only evidence is a changed heart and works thereof/conviction. But if we intellectually believe the commandments, it's our natural inclination to do good works, and resent sin.

Is the testimony of God's word insufficient?  I mean if I gave Scriptures about assurance of salvation, what would you do with that?

 

Quote

I'm genuinely trying(desperately) to find answers. I pray and am immersed in scriptures without ceasing. My heart has been opened like never before. But I hit a wall. We know God is all powerful. Why doesn't he use this power and communicate directly. Through sound or some recognizable way. A way that wouldn't make someone question if it really was God. Why can't he talk to us now, how he talked to those in the Bible? 

Jesus walked on water, raised the dead, fed 5,000 with two crackers three small fish, healed the blind, the lepers, and cast out demons right in front of His enemies and they still rejected Him.

God spoke to Israel directly at Mt. Sinai, and they still made a golden calf.

Peter saw Jesus talking with Moses and Elijah and heard the very voice of God on the Mountain of Transfiguration and he STILL denied even knowing Jesus when the chips were down.

We have so much more than those in the Bible times had.   God gave us His word and He indwells us in the Person of the Holy Spirit.  That is more than anyone in the OT had and more than anyone had while Jesus was the earth. 

It wasn't miracles or any supernatural event that changed the disciples from cowards into mighty men of God.  It was a personal encounter with the resurrected Jesus that made the difference.  And that is what makes the difference in our day. 

[lastofall]

[for me anyway] faith is not believing in regard to defining it, rather it a common knowledge (sense) matter of telling the difference between the two, yet the two are as one in unity of purpose: it is easily known by the example of marriage: we BELIEVE in marriage, but are we FAITHful to the marriage; and we know on the Lord's side, He is faithful to the marriage of His bride; but what about us (the bride)? are we faithful to the marriage?

[GandalfTheWise]

4 hours ago, AscendedMasters333 said:

Read through everything please:

How can intellectuals have faith like children?

What's the practical process? How do we bypass having faith intellectually, and believe genuinely? 

Please give a practical example. Not "read the bible" or "pray". I think the people who believe that works, are conditioning themselves with a mantra. -Read and pray long enough, and eventually you'll believe. 

I've been reading the Bible and praying non stop, with an open heart, genuinely. But I feel I only believe with my mind. Not to the extent of a child. I trust in Jesus with all the heart that is in my mind. I know if he spoke to me with commands, I would do them with no question.

Is this how it should be for adults? "thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes"

I know if I had even the slightest sign that I'm saved. My faith would be forever secured in an immovable rock foundation. How do we know we're saved? The only evidence is a changed heart and works thereof/conviction. But if we intellectually believe the commandments, it's our natural inclination to do good works, and resent sin.

I'm genuinely trying(desperately) to find answers. I pray and am immersed in scriptures without ceasing. My heart has been opened like never before. But I hit a wall. We know God is all powerful. Why doesn't he use this power and communicate directly. Through sound or some recognizable way. A way that wouldn't make someone question if it really was God. Why can't he talk to us now, how he talked to those in the Bible? 

Rather than giving a series of theological propositions, here's my story.

I grew up in a family that regularly attended church.  As a kid, I believed God existed, mostly because I just sort of took it for granted.  When I was 12, our church was having a series of Wednesday night Lent services before Easter.  One night, we had a guest speaker.  I really don't recall much of what he said.  All I remember is that I was sitting with the rest of the youth group fidgeting like a typical middle schooler.  At the end of his message, he asked a couple questions that completely captured my attention.  I don't recall them word for word, but the gist was this.  How do you know God is there?  What's going to happen when you die?  I remember immediately having a sudden realization that my "belief" in God was really just hoping that everything I'd been told was true about Him being loving and going to heaven when we die.  I was faced immediately with an uncertainty that I was hoping this stuff was true but I had no way to know if it was true.  I vaguely remember some sort  of altar call and going up to talk with him after the service.

I cannot recall exactly what he told me.  I only remember that he led me in a simple prayer, something like "God please forgive me and come into my heart."  As a practical matter, I'd done many responsive prayers as part of congregational response readings, I'd read some prayers here and there.  I had probably said and prayed words similar to these many times in church already.  There was really nothing special about that prayer he led me in.  As far as I know, there wasn't anything very special about my state of mind and emotions.  I really wasn't expecting anything.  I just had a sense I was supposed to be talking to him and I just did what he said.  But as I said that prayer (not really expecting anything), I suddenly felt a warm presence inside me.  It's hard to put into words.  It was just suddenly a sense that yes God was there.  I went from hoping God was there to feeling Him in my heart.  This was not some wild emotional manipulation, it was a quiet environment and I wasn't expecting anything to happen.

As I've gone through life, I've seen some things that I simply cannot explain rationally.  In my late 30s or early 40s, I was in a Sunday morning church service with a guest speaker.  At the end of the message, he issued an invitation for people who wanted prayer to come up.  I didn't have anything in mind, but simply felt that I was supposed to go up for prayer.  He prayed some short generic prayer over me and in that instant a couple of phobias and a long-term addiction went away.  From everything I've read and know about phobias and addictions, they do not typically just go away like that.  In one short time of private prayer, lasting perhaps 10 or 15 minutes at most, God performed a huge change in my life.  I had been bound by a couple lies from the enemy that had been affecting my entire life (though I was not aware of it).  During that time of meditation and prayer, God let me see a part of my life through His eyes, and I was instantly set free from a bondage I didn't even realize was there.  Within the next month, my wife and teenage daughters were all commenting on how different I was.  I once had a shoulder injury where I could not lift my arm any higher than about level with my shoulder before it hurt badly.  This went on for a few months and at an annual physical my doctor thought it might be a torn rotator cuff since it happened suddenly.  I had a couple people pray for healing at church; nothing happened and it felt the same.  However, after that, over a period of a couple of months, it simply got better and I now have full motion with no discomfort and full strength.  Was it actually a torn rotator cuff and healing or just something else?  I'm not sure, but I know people who've ended up in surgery with similar symptoms.  I was once driving a car that lost control on ice headed toward a drop off by an entrance ramp to a highway.  I prayed a quick "God Help!!!" prayer, felt a stiff bump as if I had hit something, and had the car change direction straight to where I wanted to go.  I sort of dismissed it as having hit a curb or some type of physical obstruction.  The next time I went past that location in the day light where I could see clearly, I realized that there was nothing there to stop a car or even slow down a car.  The pavement smoothly transitioned to a dirt shoulder to grass and on down the hill.  I have no physical explanation for the bump I felt or why I didn't go sliding off the road and down the hill.  (I have a PhD in physics so I know how to analyze that type of event.)  I've had other things happen that I simply cannot explain except as divine intervention or revelation.

I have many friends who are Christians who've told similar stories of what God has done in their life.  These are not every day occurrences that happen on demand.  Frequently, they are events where God just showed up in His timing and did something (which was often unexpected) where there was a need.  None of us are really anything special spiritually speaking from the standpoint of having amazing faith or piety or righteousness.  It's just that this seems to be what God does.  He's active in the lives of His children.

Over the years, my faith has moved from primarily "convincing myself particular things I am supposed to believe are true" to being primarily trust and confidence in God Who has been active in my life.  Often, God does stuff in ways I did not expect and at times I did not expect it.  But over the course of over 40 years, that warm presence inside me that I first felt as a kid has been with me.  I have seen His hand of guidance and protection at various times.  I have felt His presence and comfort in rough times.  My trust and confidence now rests on God and Who He is.  Trust and confidence in someone is something that grows over time.  We simply do not "trust" someone when we first meet them because we don't have a track record to know them.  I think it is similar with faith in God.  Faith is not simply a binary thing we either have perfectly or do not have at all;  faith (or trust and confidence) is something that changes and grows over time.

When I was first a Christian, I used to want to see some huge miracles or divine signs to "boost" my faith, thinking that if only I could see something miraculous that it would somehow make me into a better person and be able to have stronger faith and that that would somehow sustain me spiritually for the rest of my life.  What I've come to learn over the years is that being a Christian is about being transformed.  It is about having God's Spirit living inside of us (which is what I sort of describe as that warm sense of God inside me) and changing us.  It is about that daily walk where I simply became more and more use to and comfortable with God's presence in my life.  It's perhaps ironic, but I've seen things that I can only describe as miracles occur in my life and in the lives of others, and and they did not have the effect on me that I expected.  They did not boost my faith so much as they made me aware of God's love.  I now see them more simply as part of God's gifts to His children, not as a means to "believe more". 

The key I see is that it is all about our relationship with God and getting to know Him.  We often try to come closer to God through our own strength and efforts.  We try to learn the right facts to intellectually agree with.  We try to see something miraculous so that we will have evidence that God exists.  We try to change our behavior on our own (as if being a Christian is the ultimate in new year's resolutions).  We basically make a religion out of trying to find God.  However, God wants something different.  God wants to draw us in so that He can live inside of us, change us into the person He created us to be, and so that we can walk with Him and know Him.   Instead of walking beside us physically, He has chosen to live inside of us spiritually.  When Jesus was talking to His disciples at the last Supper, He said that it was better that He was leaving the disciples because the Holy Spirit would then come.  (See John 16)  At the time, I'm sure that the disciples thought having Jesus right there at the table physically with them was better.  But Jesus said it was better than He physically left and the Holy Spirit come spiritually.

In my opinion, this is the most important thing about Christianity.  God wants to live inside of us and change us into new creations in the image of Christ.  It is not about stoking up our belief so we have no doubts; it is not about figuring out what rules to follow and doing so to the best of our ability;  it is about God coming into our hearts, taking up residence, being present in our lives, and transforming us.  This is not something we do in our own efforts.  This is something God does.  From our standpoint, we need to recognize that we cannot do it on our own and that we must depend on Jesus Christ as the only way God has appointed for us to eternal life as His children.

Anyway, this is a summary of what I've seen God do in my life.  I've heard similar things from other people but each of our stories is different to some extent.  God has made us unique individuals and the specific way He comes into our lives and draws us to Himself is often unique to us.  Some people respond to God at church during an altar call, a good friend of mine was given a gospel tract walking across a university campus, sat down before class and read it and surrendered his life to Christ, some people hear the gospel from a friend or over the radio, some people respond the first time they hear the gospel message, others resist it for decades, some people seem to find God the first time they become aware of their need for Him, others seem to strive and struggle for awhile and have something unique to them that God wants them to give up or deal with.  I have no answers for why except that God wants to walk with us as the individuals that He created us to be.

 

[Heleadethme]

Friend, I believe intellectual faith can be a place to start and then hungering for more of God and seeking Him, and seeking to live pleasing to Him.......and that can attract His favour.  Thinking of the Gentile centurion who humbly feared the Lord and gave alms to the poor....and then the Lord revealed the gospel of salvation to Him.  Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the fear the Lord is to hate sin.  Young Samuel served in the temple for a time before he knew the Lord, and then the word of the Lord was revealed to him.

The Lord is God and we are not, there was never a God before Him nor will be there be after Him, and we are to have no other gods because no man can serve two masters........ and if we come to Him humbly acknowledging His Lordship and sovereignty, then we can receive what we humbly ask of Him.  What prepares the way for the Lord is a repentant heart and making our crooked ways straight......we all went our own way in some ways or other, and I have found that sincerely asking the Lord, like David did, to search me and know me and see if there be any wicked way in me is a prayer that He will answer.  This is a life long journey of pilgrimage as much as it is a one-time experience, so we just keep following Him, sincerely and humbly asking, seeking, knocking and the door will be opened.  And behold HE stands at the door and knocks and if any man open the door unto Him He will come in and sup with you.  And where its says, who may ascend the hill of the Lord, he who has clean hands and a pure heart.  Be not conformed to the pattern of the world but be transformed by the renewing of the mind through the washing of the water of His word.  There are so many lovely scriptures......and I will just end by encouraging us all to read the bible not with an intellectual approach, but prayerfully, and wish you well on the way.

[Neighbor]

The very twelve the Apostles failed to comprehend God before them in the flesh. They failed again and again in their own faith. So why will any of us be superior to them? It was not until Jesus conducted his famous forty day Bible school that any of them  began to understand what it means to be Jesus and to be of His flock shepherded by Him, secure in eternal life because of  Him, secured in the works of fully God fully man the first fruit of many to come.  It is not the faith of any man that saves any man, it is the faith of Jesus. His mercy upon failing and flailing mankind is the anchor that never ever has failed to hold firm to God the Father's command. No man has done that save perhaps two that God has found perfect in his sight.

God is not irrational, Jesus' faith is not misplaced, no matter how weak the faith of any person Jesus is fully sufficient in his grace and mercy to carry the day eternally for all that have been given Him by his Father. It is His faith and love of His Father that  I cling to, and not any work  or any sense of faith in myself. For I am truly flawed, a deliberate sinner against God, saved only by Jesus and found cleansed, white as snow, washed in the sacrifice that is Jesus.

Jesus is more than sufficient to get me through my weakest days of sadly limited or doubting moments and many lapses of character unbecoming a saint in Christ. He just never leaves me exposed to my shame as the sinnner that I  am. He bares wounds of my failures so that I may have eternal life with God the Father, with God the Son, and with God the Holy Spirit. He loses not a one! So I have no fear that even my weakest day will defeat His grace and God's mercy upon me. The Holy Spirit indwells me that I may be turned about again and again  to further sanctification that matches better my complete justification that came from Jesus entirely in a moment of awareness brought about by the Holy Spirit as He made that specific call to me- repent an dturn about from sin against God. The Spirit suffers me greatly but he too is faithful to His mission his service to God the Father's  command to Jesus.

Just as the triune nature of God is a bit above my paygrade of responsibility and capacity to understand, so is the awesome power of God to wash me white as snow so that He may abide me, and me in Him. That  does not make the triune nature of God irrational, it just makes it beyond my full comprehension.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Neighbor

[JAG**]

4 hours ago, Yowm said:

I just love it when arguing against the necessity of intellectualism

of faith we bring in the intellectual heavyweights LOL.

///big grin here

That's the best and most interesting way to argue against the

necessity of intellectualism --- bring in the Academic Philosophical

Intellectual Talking Heads to "play the game" with aspiring 

Academic Philosophical Intellectual Talking Heads, so that

eventually we can dispense with the bafflegab and intellectualized

gobbly-gook and embrace what I call "Little Child Christianity."
 

Quote

 

“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children,

you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."__The Lord Jesus.

 

But we still can use the intellectualized goobly-gook to help

us weaken the prestige of the intellectualized gobbly-gook.

For example we can incorporate Alvin Plantinga into the

discussion:

Quote

"Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological rationalism.
Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the central doctrines of
Christianity is both rational and warranted wholly apart from any evidential
foundations for belief."__William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith, page 39

I think a lot of Plantinga. He is a Christian philosopher and a true brain,

and he is one of the good Academic Philosophical Intellectual Talking Heads

that can pour forth with the "expanded cerebrum" with the best of 'em

and help us . . . lol . .  denigrate Mr. Spock and his Vulcan-induced addiction

to what he called "logic."

Thought For Today:

"Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the

philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"

1 Corinthians 1:20

 

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by JAG**

[JAG**]

15 hours ago, AscendedMasters333 said:

 

Read through everything please:

How can intellectuals have faith like children?

What's the practical process? How do we bypass having faith intellectually, and believe genuinely? 

Please give a practical example. Not "read the bible" or "pray". I think the people who believe that

works, are conditioning themselves with a mantra. -Read and pray long enough, and eventually

you'll believe. 

I've been reading the Bible and praying non stop, with an open heart, genuinely. But I feel I only

believe with my mind. Not to the extent of a child. I trust in Jesus with all the heart that is in my

mind. I know if he spoke to me with commands, I would do them with no question.

Is this how it should be for adults? "thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,

and hast revealed them unto babes"

I know if I had even the slightest sign that I'm saved. My faith would be forever secured in an

immovable rock foundation. How do we know we're saved? The only evidence is a changed heart

and works thereof/conviction. But if we intellectually believe the commandments, it's our natural

inclination to do good works, and resent sin.

I'm genuinely trying(desperately) to find answers. I pray and am immersed in scriptures without

ceasing. My heart has been opened like never before. But I hit a wall. We know God is all powerful.

Why doesn't he use this power and communicate directly. Through sound or some recognizable

way. A way that wouldn't make someone question if it really was God. Why can't he talk to us now,

how he talked to those in the Bible? 

The following may sound "child-like", anyway I sure hope it does (Matthew 18:3).

Either God tells lies or He does not tell lies.

He does not tell lies.

Therefore when God says, "If we confess our sins, He will forgive us our sins and

cleanse us from all unrighteousness, He is either lying or telling the truth.

When God says, "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"

He is either lying or telling the truth.

He is telling the truth.

And if we (you and me) do not believe Him, then we are FOR ALL PRACTICAL

PURPOSES calling God a liar.

You might say , "Aw I'm not really calling God a liar."

Yeah you are. 

You are if you don't believe what He said.

1 John 1:9

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse  

us from all unrighteousness."__God through the Apostle John

So is God lying up there, or is He telling you the truth?

Which one?

 

_______

What God Does With Our Sins: (See the Opening Post.)

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/214222-being-forgiven/?tab=comments#comment-2696065

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by JAG**

[Willa]

When our great grandson was told that my husband had just expired that morning he replied:  " I guess Jesus wanted him to come live with Him!"   

There is no questioning why, no doubting, no "I hope so" or anger.  

Joh 20:24  But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, wasn’t with them when Jesus came.  Joh 20:25  The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

Joh 20:26  After eight days again his disciples were inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors being locked, and stood in the middle, and said, “Peace be to you.” Joh 20:27  Then he said to Thomas, “Reach here your finger, and see my hands. Reach here your hand, and put it into my side. Don’t be unbelieving, but believing.”

Joh 20:28  Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Joh 20:29  Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed.”

 

The Bible doesn't even tell us that Thomas actually felt the holes.  He saw and believed.  But he stood in the place of many of us who have been incredulous of the message.  He witnessed to having seen, and he believed.  And having believed he responded by confessing Christ as his Lord and his God.   So if you confess that the Word our Creator came to earth in the form of human flesh, Jesus; that He died for your sins and arose from the dead; that he was seen and confessed by Thomas and as many as 500 people, then you are a believer.  1 Cor. 15: 1-8

1Co 15:1  WEB  Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand,

1Co 15:2  by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

1Co 15:3  For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

1Co 15:4  that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

1Co 15:5  and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

1Co 15:6  Then he appeared to over five hundred brothers at once, most of whom remain until now, but some have also fallen asleep.

1Co 15:7  Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles,