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Mike Mclees

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If You are looking to politics why?

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It's not so much politics as it is concern for the direction of the country.  For me anyway. I believe that, if you're not art of the solution, you're part of the problem.

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The will of God supersedes politics. Our government can't save us. One of Satan's biggest deceptions is that we can rest our hope for cultural morality and godly living in politicians and governmental officials.

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12 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

If You are looking to politics why?

I'm not sure it would be possible for you to be any more non-specific as to what you mean by   " looking " .

But for me if the Word of God shows me that my Father is Divinely involved in any process then it is quite alright for his child to be  " looking " at what His father is doing in that process. 

So then the critical question to ponder here is , does the Word of God tell us that throughout man's history  God moves in the governmental affairs of men , or not ? 

That is a yes or a no by the way .

                                                                     " My Grace is sufficient for thee ."     ( 2 Corinthians 12 : 9 ) 

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YES.

To bury the head and to make our founding fathers' efforts of little substance is a parody and an insult of epic proportion.

So few have stepped up, believing that if it gets bad, that great-elevator-in-the-sky will come pick us up. Meanwhile the immoral majority have passed laws that are godless and defy true justice.

Christians it seems, have had an underwhelming impact!

All that is necessary for evil to abound is for good men to do nothing.

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Source: The Christian and Civil Government

Quote

Conclusion

This is not the only text in the Bible on the matter of “conscientious subjection.” Paul writes generally of this obligation to Titus (3:1). Peter speaks of submission to human government in the context of suffering (1 Peter 2:13-14). But when Paul speaks of submission to government in our text, he does so in the context of service. This is the main theme of Romans 12:1–13:7. We are challenged by Paul in 12:1-2 to present our bodies to God as living sacrifices, which is our reasonable service of worship. Paul then speaks of our sacrificial service in terms of the church, the body of Christ, and of the exercise of our spiritual gifts (12:3-8). In verses 9-21 Paul writes of our service in the context of love, whether we are serving our fellow-believers or our enemy. Subordination to civil government is discussed in Romans 13:1-7, only to find Paul returning to the theme of walking in love in verses 8 and following.

Paul’s teaching on subordination is no interruption of his theme or emphasis, but rather an extension of it. From verse 1 of chapter 12, Paul has been teaching the importance of subordination. We must subordinate our lives to God, presenting our bodies as living sacrifices to Him. We must subordinate our interests to the interests of others if we are to walk in love. We must also subordinate our lives to those in authority over us as civil servants.

There is a very important principle underlying all of Paul’s teaching on subordination, which we are now able to identify: SUBORDINATION IS A PREREQUISITE TO SERVICE AND A MINDSET WITHOUT WHICH SERVICE IS EITHER IMPOSSIBLE OR UNFRUITFUL.

Recently I watched a television program called “Over My Dead Body.” In this program, a long-time servant was arrested for murder—naturally, he was innocent. In the course of events, a famous author (turned detective) secretly took the servant’s job to try to uncover the truth and expose the real murderer. The true servant’s spirit, as well as his service, was vastly different from that of the short-term “servant.” The true servant saw himself as subordinate to those he served. The one disguised as a “servant” saw himself as better than the job and those whom he served. Without true subordination, loving service is impossible.

Self-interest must be set aside and replaced by a spirit of subordination if true service is rendered. We cannot seek our own interests as a priority and genuinely serve others at the same time. We cannot love ourselves first and love God and others next. It simply does not and cannot work. Subordination is prerequisite to service. This is precisely the point Paul makes concerning our Lord’s attitudes and actions, which should serve as our example:

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. (Philippians 2:5-8)

Subordination is the key to loving God and others. It is not the inclination of our flesh. It is not the spirit of our age. But it is what God requires and what the Spirit enables when we walk in Him.

As said earlier, Christians are rapidly moving in the direction of opposing government more than submitting to it and serving it with a pure heart and a clear conscience. We have lost our respect for those in authority and have come to disdain, en masse, those in public office. We have come to view government as God’s opponent rather than as God’s divinely ordained instrument. There may be reason for disobedience to certain laws, but there is no excuse for our spirit of insubordination and for an obedience which is more compliant than it is cooperative and supportive.

Christianity is, at the moment, much more intent upon producing Christian leaders than it is in producing Christian followers. While His disciples had their heads filled with thoughts of position, power, and prestige, Jesus constantly talked to them about subordination and service. While we think much about leaders, Jesus talked most about being followers, disciples. Ironically, the way men become good leaders is by learning to become good followers.

Contemporary Christianity is probably more purposeful and aggressive in seeking to influence government and legislation than ever before. And yet I fear that we are less effective than in previous times. How can this be? On the one hand, we seem to be relying on the “arm of the flesh,” on human mechanisms and motivations, rather than on those which are spiritual. We seem to think that we need large numbers to attract the attention of government officials, and that we will not be able to change men’s minds or voting habits unless we hold over their heads the threat of losing the next election.

Daniel illustrates the truth of Romans 13:1-7 and exposes the folly of our fleshly efforts to affect change in government. Daniel was a young political hostage. He had no credentials or political clout to impress his Babylonian captors. And yet Daniel had tremendous political influence on several kings and administrations over a long period of time. What was it that made Daniel the E. F. Hutten of his day? What made kings listen when he spoke?

I believe the answer is that Daniel subordinated himself to the heathen, human government of Babylon as God’s divinely ordained institution. In the first chapter of Daniel, and again in chapter 6, Daniel had to say “no” to his government, even though it might have meant death. He had to disobey two specific orders because his obedience to government would have been disobedience to God. He refused to eat from the king’s table, because it would defile him and deprive him of a clear conscience. He would not cease praying for the same reason. He disobeyed his government when his faith and his conscience required it.

But our text in Romans explains the positive way in which Daniel maintained a clear conscience. Daniel maintained a clear conscience not only in what he refused to do but also in what he did. While Daniel would not defile himself by eating food from the king’s table, he did submit to the king and his government by showing those in power his respect and by cooperating and supporting that government in every way possible. He was educated in the ways of the Babylonians. He worked hard and was at the top of his class in his studies. He aggressively sought not only to interpret the king’s dream, but also to spare the lives of his heathen counterparts.

Daniel was but a single man, living in a godless society and in a heathen culture. But Daniel was a man who was respected and sought by the political leaders of his day. Why? I believe it was because Daniel was practicing what Paul later preached. Daniel was serving God by his subordination to civil government. As he sought to serve God with a clear conscience, he refused to do only that which was disobedient to God and defiling to his conscience. As he served God, he eagerly cooperated and supported the governmental system under which God had placed him.

Down through history, men like Daniel have had a profound impact on kings and government officials—even though they served God and even though they were in the minority. John the Baptist was a man who stood for what was right and who did not shrink back from pointing out Herod’s sin. And yet, Herod found himself strangely drawn to John and his teaching. He listened intently to him. He would not have put him to death except for his drunkenness, his foolish offer, and his foolish pride (see Mark 6:14-29).

Jesus had the attention of the governmental leaders of His day. They were eager to see Him face to face. It was only reluctantly that they played a part in Jesus’ death. Paul too had a spiritual impact on some of the political leaders of his day. Even today, men like Billy Graham are sought out by presidents and powerful political figures. Why? Not, I think, because they control votes, but because they are subject to God, to His Word, and to the government under which He has placed them.

We do not need to muster more votes or more political clout. We need more “moral clout,” gained by simple obedience to God, to His Word, and to the institutions He has ordained. May God grant that we will present ourselves to Him as living sacrifices, as we subordinate ourselves to others and to the government He has ordained.


70 This system of values differed significantly from the value structure of society, however. For example, an inmate who was serving time for killing a police officer would normally be very highly respected by his peers. This was a “status offense.”

71 Strange as it might seem, this authority structure included both inmates and prison staff, as well as guards. A guard might be lower in this structure than an inmate. Because of this, certain inmates could issue commands to certain guards and expect to be obeyed.

72 One of the joys I have had in working with prisoners down through the years is to see newly saved Christian inmates begin to manifest genuine obedience from the heart, because of the work of the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit in their lives.

73 Submission to civil authority is but one facet of the much broader issue of authority. Authority has been one of man’s prominent problems down through the ages. Satan rebelled against God’s authority and then tempted Adam and Eve to do likewise (see Genesis 2 and 3). Jacob was always seeking to resist or manipulate authority. Joseph had to learn what authority meant, and especially how he was to use it. David struggled with his authority as the promised king of Israel and with Saul’s authority as king until the time of David’s coronation. Israel’s kings, priests, and prophets all struggled with the proper use of their authority. Often those in positions of power misused their authority.

When Jesus came to the earth, He rebuked the scribes and Pharisees for their misuse of authority (see Matthew 21:23-46; 23:1-39). His disciples were preoccupied with acquiring positions of authority. Jesus had to continually contrast the servanthood which was to characterize the Christian in power to the self-seeking of the unbeliever who abused his power (see Mark 10:35-45).

74 Paul speaks of “rulers” (verse 3), of “taxes” and of “custom” (verse 6).

75 Thus, a law which permits abortion is viewed little differently from a law which requires it. In protest against abortion, some Christians feel compelled to trespass and to commit other violations of the law in order to make their point. It becomes very difficult to define where civil disobedience must stop. Is it right, in order to save the unborn from the murderous and mercenary hand of the abortionist, to burn down an abortion clinic? These are now issues Christians are debating among themselves. All the while, civil government is looking at us as its opponent.

76 For this same expression, see also Acts 2:43; 3:23; Romans 2:9. All of these expressions seem to imply “all without exception.”

77 See Isaiah 30:30; Jeremiah 5:31; John 19:11; 1 Corinthians 15:24; Ephesians 1:21; Colossians 2:10.

78 The rendering “condemnation” in the NASB and “damnation” in the KJV strongly suggest divine retribution. The more neutral “judgment” of the NIV leaves the interpretation somewhat undefined. When Paul uses this same term in Romans 2:2, 3, he adds the expression, “of God” in both instances. Elsewhere in Romans the term is used in 3:8; 5:16; and 11:33. The context seems to require us to take “judgment” here as divine judgment. Government will also penalize men for their wrong-doings, but this is a more indirect form of divine chastening. What government fails to judge properly in this life, God will make right in the final judgment.

79 One can safely imply that government’s authority to judge the evil-doer extends to the degree of capital punishment. I believe that the reader of Paul’s day understood “the sword” in verse 4 to include capital punishment. Having said this, let us not lose sight of the many offenses for which capital punishment was the penalty in the Old Testament. If we were to follow the Old Testament in the matter of capital punishment, we would all live in dread fear. Capital punishment is not the focus of Paul’s teaching here, and so we should be careful not to overlook the “camels” in this text because we are straining at the “gnat” of capital punishment (see Matthew 23:24).

80 In the context of church “ministers,” both honor and financial means are also to be a token of our submission and of our support (see 1 Corinthians 9:3-14; Galatians 6:6; 1 Timothy 5:17-19; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13; Hebrews 13:17). It is interesting that in 1 Timothy 5:17 the word “honor” itself has this two-fold sense of honor and remuneration.

Related Topics: Cultural Issues

The quoted section is just the conclusion summary.  Use the above link at the top of this post for the full article from Bible.org.

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On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 5:22 AM, Unfailing Presence said:

I'm not sure it would be possible for you to be any more non-specific as to what you mean by   " looking " .

But for me if the Word of God shows me that my Father is Divinely involved in any process then it is quite alright for his child to be  " looking " at what His father is doing in that process. 

So then the critical question to ponder here is , does the Word of God tell us that throughout man's history  God moves in the governmental affairs of men , or not ? 

That is a yes or a no by the way .

                                                                     " My Grace is sufficient for thee ."     ( 2 Corinthians 12 : 9 ) 

No !   Where did Jesus tell the decuples that they were to involve themselves in the politics of this world  that is Babylon. No he did not.  The instruction was we as Believers obey, or to honor the laws those who are of authority over us. Christians today think we have to be politically minded or depending on it for anything.  

Another question to ponder is John 17: Jesus says  ( I pray for them being the disciples

I pray not for the world.   Now the is a point blank statement.  The question is why did He say that. You have to study the word about separation from the world and all its enticement and ambitions.  

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2 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:
On 11/4/2017 at 7:22 AM, Unfailing Presence said:

So then the critical question to ponder here is , does the Word of God tell us that throughout man's history  God moves in the governmental affairs of men , or not ? 

That is a yes or a no by the way .

                                                                     " My Grace is sufficient for thee ."     ( 2 Corinthians 12 : 9 ) 

No !   Where did Jesus tell the decuples that they were to involve themselves in the politics of this world  that is Babylon. No he did not.  The instruction was we as Believers obey, or to honor the laws those who are of authority over us. Christians today think we have to be politically minded or depending on it for anything.  

Y'all crossed each other with different meanings. 

Yahweh set the boundaries FOR ALL THE GOVERNMENTS, yes.

The disciples were CALLED by the world: "you simpletons" largely BECAUSE they WOULD NOT GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS ANY MORE

(after being born again of Yahweh,  they had NO INTEREST IN POLITICS NOR RELIGION NOR FINANCE NOR SOCIETY OF THE WORLD)  < shrugs > so they were called SIMPLETONS,

and they continues the same today.   (and worse)

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37 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Y'all crossed each other with different meanings. 

Yahweh set the boundaries FOR ALL THE GOVERNMENTS, yes.

The disciples were CALLED by the world: "you simpletons" largely BECAUSE they WOULD NOT GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS ANY MORE

(after being born again of Yahweh,  they had NO INTEREST IN POLITICS NOR RELIGION NOR FINANCE NOR SOCIETY OF THE WORLD)  < shrugs > so they were called SIMPLETONS,

and they continues the same today.   (and worse)

Could you tell me what you mean " The disciples were called by the world?

Also who called who simpletons.    

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The disciples were called by the [the garbage dump] [world] :   SIMPLETONS!  Society rejects the TRUTH, always has except for 2 times in the history of the world.

i.e. the world in all of its extensive sin, sinfulness, full of wickedness and abominations, 

called the disciples simpletons, even "idiots",  because they were NEW CREATIONS not concerned with politics, not any longer under the power of the world,   not any longer under the power of the flesh,  or of the devil.  Not any longer under GREED. No longer deceived by all the deceptions of all society under the prince of the power of the air (the devil), 

all the deceptions of the sons of disobedience (in banks, schools, finance, medicine, pharmacy, politics, corporations, etc etc etc ) .

SIMPLETONS !  SWEET JOY IN CHRIST !  Only He has the WORD of ETERNAL LIFE!

(HIS WAY)

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