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Science and Bible proves man made of the dust of the ground.


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Kevinb

"A philosopher ... really? Let me guess a creationist? How about an Christian Francis Collins whilst head of the genome project said dna evidence alone proves common ancestry. How do you prove an intelligent agent designed? Just looking isn't enough... how do you test that? A car looks designed right but we could investigate an agent there ...a factory... manufacture of alloys.. watching robots rivet panels together. We haven't seen cars form in nature... they don't reproduce. We have no evidence a god created life.. in this design way... you admit you animals change from one form to another over time. How are you leveraging in God did or guided? How do we test that?"

.

Cars did not design themselves or build themselves, neither do the robots who riveted them together. An intelligent being designed, and built them. Man, is an intelligent being because God created us in His image and in His likeness, we can think, feel, have emotions, fall in love and we have free moral agency.

Are you truly a seeker? If so, then check these Scriptures out.

Genesis 1: 26-27, And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
V. 27, So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

We have a soul, and a spirit; The soul is that invisible part of all living beings that feels, the seat of his affections, emotions, passions, and desires, and which gives him self consciousness and makes him a sentient being (Lev. 23:43; 1 Sam. 22:2; 30:6; 2 Sam. 13:39; 2 Kings 4:27; 23:3; Ps. 107:5, 9, 18, 26; Mark 12:33; Matt. 26:38; John 12:27; Heb. 10:38; Heb. 4:12).

The spirit is that invisible part of all living beings that knows, the seat of his intellect, mind, and will, and that which gives him self-determination and makes him a free moral agent and a rational being (1 Cor. 2:11; Matt. 26:41; Exodus 35:21; Job 38:8, 18; Prov. 20:27; Phil. 4:12; Jas. 2:26; 1 Thess. 5:23).

Animals do not have all these faculties. We are the only species on Earth that can design, and build cities, cars planes, hospitals, write music and make instruments to play music, compose opera's and we are advancing at a rapid rate. One hundred years ago it took months to travel around the world, now it only takes hours. What other living being on earth has these abilities and faculties?

I was sceptical for many years weather God existed or not until I did a personal 10 year study of the Bible from cover to cover and realised that it is a divinely inspired book. I have had many discussions with many men about God and His plan for mankind and some have said, "Where did you get this information?" I tell them from the Word of God, the Bible. Some have laughed, some ridiculed, and some stated that the Bible is a book of fairy tales, made up by men, childish stories and anyone who believe them to be true is an idiot?

Do you know how the Word of God was given to man? Here is how the Word of God was given to man and it was given in such a way, only a Divine author could have done this!

Over forty different authors wrote the sixty six books of the Bible during a period of 1,800 years; and they all had one theme. The creation and redemption of the human race by God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

These books of the Bible were written by men from all walks of life such as Kings, Priests, Judges, lawyers, Princes, Shepherds, Soldiers, Courtiers, Statesmen, Musicians, Inventors, Singers, Poets, Preachers, Prophets, Fishermen, Farmers, Tentmakers, Publicans, Physicians, Rich men and Poor men.

They were written in various lands of three continents, Europe, Asia, and Africa.

They were written in different ages and by many men, some who never ever saw each other, knew each other, or had the slightest idea of what the others wrote on the same subjects, yet when all their writings were assembled into one book, there is not one contradiction among them.
Lets suppose forty medical men, each in a different land and age, would write just forty books on how to cure any disease, what kind of cure would such a collection make? How much unity would one find among their writings?
Collect together forty books of any men on any subject and one will find many contradictions and controversies among the authors.

Who but a divine author could produce such a work, the Word of God, the Bible, through mere men? Only God!

Many say the Bible is hard to understand, some say it cannot be understood without interpretation of expert Bible scholars. This is not true. Here is a post I made some time ago, I believe it was on these boards, regarding the simplicity of the Bible.

The Bible is God's inspired revelation of the origin and destiny of all things. It is the power of God unto eternal salvation and it is the source of present help for the body, soul, and spirit (Rom. 1:16; John 15:7). It is God's will and testament to men in all ages, revealing the plan of God for man here and now and in the next life. It is the record of God's dealings with man; past, present, and future. It contains God's message of eternal salvation to all people who believe in Christ and of eternal damnation to those who knowingly and willingly rebel against the gospel.

 

The Bible is a simple book to understand because it was given by God to be understood by the simple. Following the commonly accepted argument that a perfect God cannot make anything imperfect, we can scripturally say that God did not fail in His purpose of giving man a simple revelation that could be easily understood by all men alike, even by the simple (Deut. 29:29; Ps. 119:104, 140; Proverbs 1:1-4; 2 Timothy 3:15-17).

 

Paul speaks of "the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Cor. 11:3). Jesus thanked God that the truths of the Bible were hidden from the worldly wise who refused to believe, and stated that God has "revealed them unto babes" (Matt. 11:25-27). He gives the reason truths are hidden from anyone. It is because they refuse to humble themselves to believe and conform to the Bible (Matt.13:10-17). Jesus speaks of the devil taking the Word from the hearts of men lest it should bring forth fruit (Matt. 13:19-23. Paul also speaks of the devil blinding the minds of men lest they should believe, and he also speaks of men wilfully handling the Word of God dishonestly and deceitfully (2 Cor. 4:1-6).

 

The most simple beginners can understand the Bible one line at a time, for this is the way it was given, and it is the best way to understand it (Isa. 28:9-13). No man can get the vastness of the Bible at once. It is the infinite scope of the Bible truth that causes some men to think the Bible is hard to understand. Its like someone saying they cannot understand water because they cannot drink the whole ocean dry in one drink.

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7 hours ago, enoob57 said:

interesting .... everything you claim to know from your own self came from books...  what of your premis now?

Claims need to be demonstrated not just asserted is the point. You could just believe on faith people lived to 100s of years old.. who has the record... enoch was 800 plus right? 

The quran says Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse.. happy to just believe that on faith? I'll wager not. 

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So you believe everything came about by evolutionary process ... everything can be explained by the senses?

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2 hours ago, enoob57 said:

So you believe everything came about by evolutionary process ... everything can be explained by the senses?

Kinda... the diversity of life by evolutionary process yes. When you say our senses.. if you just look at things in a superficial wow look how complicated life is..i don't know how this could possibly be natural and therefore intelligent agent did it is a fallacy. We are not required or justified in saying don't know yet therefore Gods ...or aliens did it etc. Still gotta have some evidence for hypothesis. You've heard of the God of the gaps right?  I.e. don't know this therefore God..we discover naturalistic explanations... then well okay don't know this other thing therefore God and so on. Seen many do this shifting whatever their God is into some other remaining gap. If we don't have explanation we can't just say well no explanation but I'll accept one anyway on faith coz I don't have evidence. 

Edited by Kevinb
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Romans 1:20-21, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

They simply refuse to believe in God because they are not willing to give up their lifestyles which transgress many of Gods commandments.

Psalm 14:1, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." 
 
Psalm 53:1,"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good."

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5 hours ago, Kevinb said:

Kinda... the diversity of life by evolutionary process yes. When you say our senses.. if you just look at things in a superficial wow look how complicated life is..i don't know how this could possibly be natural and therefore intelligent agent did it is a fallacy. We are not required or justified in saying don't know yet therefore Gods ...or aliens did it etc. Still gotta have some evidence for hypothesis. You've heard of the God of the gaps right?  I.e. don't know this therefore God..we discover naturalistic explanations... then well okay don't know this other thing therefore God and so on. Seen many do this shifting whatever their God is into some other remaining gap. If we don't have explanation we can't just say well no explanation but I'll accept one anyway on faith coz I don't have evidence. 

Hi Kevin,

if you just look at things in a superficial wow look how complicated life is..i don't know how this could possibly be natural and therefore intelligent agent did it is a fallacy. We are not required or justified in saying don't know yet therefore Gods ...or aliens did it etc.”

I think this somewhat oversimplifies, and therefore misrepresents, our position. If we look at abiotic nature, and compare it to things of known design (i.e. human design), we find that the designed things have a complexity of form, order, and function not found in abiotic nature. That is, there are elements of complexity that readily distinguish design from abiotic nature. That unique complexity is reflected (if not amplified) in biotic nature (life). Therefore, the complexity of life is indicative of design. We therefore interpret the high complexity of life as evidence of the Designer proposed by our presupposed model of reality.

The paragon of complexity is information. The effective communication of information requires a writer, a reader, and an interpreter – and all independent of the medium on which the information is contained. Life as we understand it requires an efficient information system. The presence of information in all living organisms strongly implies the involvement of an intelligent agent. The information system of life also incorporates copying processes, error-correcting processes, Transcription processes, information flow controls, metadata etc.

In addition, we have only ever observed life to come from life (i.e. the natural law of Biogenesis). Therefore we conclude that life had an initial source beyond abiotic nature – which is also consistent with the Biblical model.

 

Still gotta have some evidence for hypothesis.”

Depends what you mean by “evidence”. If you mean natural observations of the supernatural, you are requiring an irrational standard.

We can only naturally observe current, natural phenomena. We can neither observe the past nor the supernatural. The best we can do is look at current facts, and determine if they can be interpreted to be consistent with our existing faith presuppositions.

If by “evidence” you mean natural observations which can be interpreted to be consistent with a supernatural claim – then we have that in abundance. However, interpretation is subjective – so you would never be obligated to our interpretation if it conflicts with your existing faith. Even though it technically qualifies as “evidence” of our position, if you don’t like the implication, you could dismiss our interpretation as equivocal, in the same way I contest many secular interpretations (But I don’t claim they have “no evidence”).

 

You've heard of the God of the gaps right?  I.e. don't know this therefore God..we discover naturalistic explanations... then well okay don't know this other thing therefore God and so on.

If the Bible tells us that God did something, it is not a “God of the gaps” claim. When examining an argument, objectivity requires that it be considered in the context in which it was formulated. Requiring an argument to stand against a contrary premise would also be irrational.

Whilst actual “God of the gaps” arguments are logically weak (and I generally prefer to avoid them), they are not irrational. Naturalistic faith limits what can be considered truth. But theistic faith makes explicit provision for supernatural claims. Therefore a claim of supernatural intervention, whether directly supported by the Bible or not, is logically consistent with the theistic faith premise.

 

What do you mean by “we discover naturalistic explanations”? If you mean historical claims, then we don’t “discover” anything. We look at the current facts, then make up a story to account for the facts; given our preferred faith presupposition. If you adhere to a naturalistic faith, you make up a story that is consistent with a reality absent of God’s involvement. If you are a Biblical Christian, you make up a story that is consistent with the Bible; unless the story is already in the Bible.

 

If we don't have explanation we can't just say well no explanation but I'll accept one anyway on faith coz I don't have evidence. 

I don’t think anyone does this. We all start from a position of faith in a certain version of reality. That faith presupposition influences which “explanation” we ultimately prefer.

There are claims in our model that cannot be directly observed. We have evidence that our model is reliable (where it can be compared to observations). Therefore we extend that reliability to those non-observable claims as well. Consistency between the current facts and the model is the same logical standard used by secularists to support their claims.

 

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5 hours ago, Kevinb said:

When you say our senses.. if you just look at things in a superficial wow look how complicated life is..i don't know how this could possibly be natural and therefore intelligent agent did it is a fallacy.

:groan:  Ahhh, "NEWSFLASH" mr. Straw Man Fallacy:  You're 'Whistl'n Past the Graveyard' trainwreck appeal here has already been taken out back to the Woodshed and given "What For" on this very page.

 

Quote

Still gotta have some evidence for hypothesis.

What in the World?  You don't get "Evidence" for a Scientific Hypothesis, professor; all you do is "Observe Phenomenon" (The First Step of The Scientific Method).  THEN, the Hypothesis (Step 3 of The Scientific Method) when Validated or Invalidated... gives you "EVIDENCE"!! :rolleyes:

i.e., "Evidence" is The Consequent, the Hypothesis is the Necessary Antecedent.

Your appeal here is tantamount claiming you gotta have Water before you can have Hydrogen Bonds!!

 

Quote

You've heard of the God of the gaps right?

Yea smh, it's a Mindlessly PARROTED "meme" used in Right in the Face of the evidence to the CONTRARY !!! :rolleyes: (Like... ON THIS PAGE!!)

The purveyors just "Whistle Past the Graveyard' and "B-gAAK" this meme because they can't tear themselves away from their Stage 5 Clinger Kung Fu Death Grip on the Trainwreck Narrative.  THEN...for a Cherry-On-Top to their 'Hammer meet c4 Fire' Clown Show, they unwittingly Fall... Face-Plant Style over and over again, directly into the very trap as to what they're charging others with:

'evolution of the GAPS' !!  Here's a Classic:

Ernst Mayr PhD Professor Emeritus, Museum of Comparative Zoology at Harvard University (“Ernst Mayr, the world’s greatest living evolutionary biologist" -- Stephen Jay Gould)...

"Given the fact of evolution, one would expect the fossils to document a gradual steady change from ancestral forms to the descendants. But this is not what the paleontologist finds. Instead, he or she finds gaps in just about every phyletic series."
Ernst Mayr; What Evolution Is, 2001, p.14.

So the "GAPS" are plugged with...you guessed it: 'evolution' (Whatever that is (??), they can't even DEFINE THE TERM !!!)

 

oy vey

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20 hours ago, Kevinb said:

Kinda... the diversity of life by evolutionary process yes. When you say our senses.. if you just look at things in a superficial wow look how complicated life is..i don't know how this could possibly be natural and therefore intelligent agent did it is a fallacy. We are not required or justified in saying don't know yet therefore Gods ...or aliens did it etc. Still gotta have some evidence for hypothesis. You've heard of the God of the gaps right?  I.e. don't know this therefore God..we discover naturalistic explanations... then well okay don't know this other thing therefore God and so on. Seen many do this shifting whatever their God is into some other remaining gap. If we don't have explanation we can't just say well no explanation but I'll accept one anyway on faith coz I don't have evidence. 

Everything you believe is faith based because you began into something...

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16 hours ago, Tristen said:

In addition, we have only ever observed life to come from life (i.e. the natural law of Biogenesis). Therefore we conclude that life had an initial source beyond abiotic nature – which is also consistent with the Biblical model.

@Kevinb, you and I tend to agree with our views of science, but I'd like to follow up on Tristen's great post from earlier. The origin of the first life forms may seem like a "God of the gaps" argument, but there has been astonishingly little advance in the scientific explanation of abiogenesis since Miller and Urey, 60-70 years ago. Understanding of molecular biology has grown by leaps and bounds, but a reasonable explanation of the development of the first cells is completely lacking. Nobel Laureate Jack Szostak has been working on abiogenesis research for about a decade, with very little to show for it. He published a paper in 2016 that was considered another important piece of the puzzle, but recently had to make a retraction, after a critical experiment was determined to not be reproducible (yes, the peer review process does work!). At some point, a giant gap that just won't close may really be a physical gap.

In my opinion, the incredible complexity of the simplest of cells is strong evidence for the existence of God, the Creator. The scientific evidence I see suggests that God set the amazing process of evolution in motion, but started with single cells, "dust of the earth".

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3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Everything you believe is faith based because you began into something.

began? Not sure what you mean. I'll address everything i believe is faith. 

I'd define faith as the belief in a position without evidence. Or Hebrews 11 defines faith as the confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. Does this sound like a good pathway to what's true? Do you honestly think that's the same as scientific understanding? 

Faith as defined is what you need when you don't have good evidence. Faith gets us to 100s of gods and religions.

I've a level of confidence that's proportional to evidence. 

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