Jump to content
IGNORED

Discontinuity of the flood boundary


dprprb

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Junior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  98
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   38
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  04/08/2015
  • Status:  Offline

There is temporal structure in the OT that prevents a rational relationship to be developed between the recording that Creation has in it (radioactive decay, geological straitfication, long times ) with Scripture. Scripture doesnt lie as given to us by God and Creation cant lie. The whole history of this debate can be closed by the divergence of truth in the form of wye structures that open around the Creation days and close after Noah and the animals are dispersed into the world after the Flood. These structures imped our rational being and we shake our heads to dispel the thoughts that try to compel us down both roads at once. But they are not lies and half truths! The scattering of hypothetical explanations for the various inconsistencies is symptomatic.

To highlight these con/divergences let me ask- why havent the YEC group used Gen6:13 to tell geologists to do what you want?  God destroys the earth in the Flood so ANY outcome is possible. It is not connected to Eden anymore.  What and how God does it is conjectural and anything is acceptable and unfalsifiable to Scripture. If you wanted to reconcile why not say that ? So I think it is because there is a divergence there that blocks it all and I dont blink. The clock on the ark is the one you have been carrying around all this time in your Bible...trying to count by Creation all the way back to Eden -and Scripture is Noah's clock. 

Scientists say Creation has a very different temporal reading- OK ! Yes we know or at least we should expect. But the stricter issue between clocks can only be resolved by what Scripture says and implies since e=mc^2 isnt scratched on the inside cover. The rub in the wye comes down to what Noah experiences from the words of God spoken over Creation "Be fruitful and fill the earth!" If Noah sees the world come alive again in a second Creation event and is 'teeming' instantly then he doesnt know that the people he eventually meets didnt get there by divine hand in any unusal way. He wouldnt question when he meets them whether God truly did flood the world. He doesnt question his own experience of all the drowning. These people are 'after' and invited in by God to the prime timeline But the people 'get there' by a separate route and God has to reconnect them in the time that He took off to play Yathzee with the continents and Noahs timeline. This a paradox of truth  when it converges!  These are the dopplegangers of the Gap theory- not pre Genesis 1 -but intra-flooding. You see an Act of God is a powerful thing. By going back to Gen 1 He infuses that Scripture with the purpose of His visit. There is no preamble to Gen 1:1 where Satan caused a flood and any Scripture you are using to justify that Gap theory is Scriptural support that I encapsulate here that is 'superimposed' on your readings of Scripture as it stands.  Your truth antenna are picking the signal up but backfilling a preamble to support that truth or rescue PreColumbian societies from the Flood is incorrect. The people who die at the time of the Flood drown but going back to Gen 1 'waters' is going back in time to undo what he did. A direct route (entropy conserved) would cause deadly paradoxes for the contents of the ark. So any other path is necessarily longer (make 0001000 'different') and even though exact reversal might be in His Almighty power I see that God chooses to save. And while He is destroying the land as known to Noah the forces unleashed would also kill the ark contents so by extending the force/time equation God also saves them from His wrath. I dont have an equation that outputs 13.7 /8 bya but there you have it and continents scrambled every which way.

This divergence in time is the key to Creation time and Biblical time. It is a wye structure, possibly at both ends, when God revisits Creation Gen1:1. The expansion of time during Gods wrathful enterprise explains SO MUCH about the history of fallen man and his pre-Christian relationship to that which is divine. The animals are bereft of providence and man sees only the wrathful side of God bent on destruction and not in His benevolent nature at all. During it all God is applying an anti-Creational, degenerative, devolutionary ,negative force to what He created and driving all of it back to the recesses of His brain (thus we perceive the vanishing point of all things that also answers the question of God How did you do it? that we have asked a bagazillion times.). The populations during this time however experiences it in a forward , expanding, evolving universe as per science and they still have the right genetic markers in a parallel divergency scenario.. Natural selection, death rule this timeline because overall God is in His Wrath. Here the ancestors of punished fallen men evolve in the open spaces of time. ..these are the doppelgangers of Gap theory and are they above the animal in their deconstruction? Hence the two bloodlines reconverge at the end of the flood in real terms and perhaps we can rationally make sense of the Canaanites massacre (Ham conjoins with them) and the vigorous lines drawn between Jew and Gentile. Christ changes that and by His Life and Blood and ministry on Earth and in hell those bloodlines can be united once again (part of His Kingdom). And we can withdraw a very symmetrical view of the beginning of Creation and the end with fireballs (meteors) and lakes of fire (molten earth). whew my brain is hurtin'

 

Now it gets tricky bringing everything back together and Is there a cosmologist in the house? Here goes-- the evidence of the flood waters ,because it hides Gods actions from start to finish, is transposed in toto onto the temporal expanse created by the return to Gen 1. I can only explain by the  the fact that it can be quantized to the temporal spaces that arise in random amounts. Thus as I previously posted the waters of Gen 1 are the sum of all possible positions of water in the water cycle here on earth. That was overwritten 'information' on Gen 1 redubbed to me by an Act of God in Scripture. I deduced that God created from the well of potentials , not ex nihil becuase there is something there that is without form but devoid of attributes. God calls forth things in Creation like potatoes rising to the surface as you stir the soup. So some variable has to carrying this as the two histories are reconnected and well Ive done my level best. I expect crazy to be the first thing you say about me but try to imagine that wye structure coming back together and the things that are in it. It cant be causal but truth can carry forward in it. How can forces carry truth that isnt casual =information. The doppelgangers are like information neither created or destroyed being revealed and congealed when Noahs groups rejoins and the earth repopulates. FYI When the Flood waters recede it is actually evaporating quantum mechanically and I hope that there is an observable fizz just like when the waves in the ocean wash up the beach! (Salinity is a function of time so watch out on your computations there)

Only a God that has revealed His Immortal path through our time and His work, Creation, and Scriptural account in a correct cosmology is THE ONLY REAL GOD.  The correct description of a temporal excursion at the time of the Flood is ridiculously beyond the call of men to invent circa 2000BC. And look Im just some average joe that is mentally STRUGGLING past the wye structure in the modern era to connect the truths that I sense in various forms with a reconciliation structure using the modern knowledge of nature.  Someone here said that the gap between YEC and OEC was 'unfordable' despite the fact that we all know An act of God will do because here as Ive said the YEC stands but is unfalsifiable, The OEC is given an excursion,  the Gap gets a ..well gaps, and the flood waters are quantized locally to all the accounts in time from cultures around the world but acting globally...'weather' you believe it or not. ..

I believe the WHY structure is causing our confusion but ultimately  -should my words fail -I hope you see that what God did is what gives meaning to some interpreting 'was' and some interpreting 'becomes' and nothing else. This is really the best I can do   -the message of salvation in Christ is untouched-I hope it helps you.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Mars Hill
  • Followers:  12
  • Topic Count:  12
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  7,689
  • Content Per Day:  2.41
  • Reputation:   2
  • Days Won:  20
  • Joined:  06/30/2015
  • Status:  Offline

What ?

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  2,326
  • Content Per Day:  0.63
  • Reputation:   1,303
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  01/26/2014
  • Status:  Offline

You lost me as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  29
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  5,240
  • Content Per Day:  2.13
  • Reputation:   1,356
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  07/03/2017
  • Status:  Offline

Yep, me too... Maybe start with explaining what a "wye structure" is?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Junior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  98
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   38
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  04/08/2015
  • Status:  Offline

12 hours ago, simplejeff said:

What ?

A Y in the road looking back. One temporal line goes to the YEC position the other into the OEC position. Trying to trace the lines of feedback we rely on as truisms will automatically result in a fuzziness. It cant go both directions. Stepping back we try to follow lines of evidence that we have from separate accounts and it s a mess becuase we cant see the structure and the fuzziness of information recombing. Fuzziness is a good indicator to toss it all out whether it is math science or interpretation of Scripture. But quantum mechanics says to expect it! No rational being says these two things are true. The switch is not on and off but to explain it we invoke another dimensionality to hold the uncertanity of the 'state ' of the switch at a given measure. See fuzziness!  But more so here in this wye structure there is informational paradoxes that must overlap and both be true. It helps me to think 'there is a paradox nearby and it's going to influence what I can say' if I try to relate x to ys to form internally consistent reality. There is a limit You cant transpose it all 1:1 it wont work  and that real experience of what quantum mechanics say is true about the world causes you to toss out these results.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  26
  • Topic Count:  61
  • Topics Per Day:  0.03
  • Content Count:  9,602
  • Content Per Day:  4.02
  • Reputation:   7,795
  • Days Won:  21
  • Joined:  09/11/2017
  • Status:  Offline

Not surprised your head hurts... mine does now!

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Junior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  98
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   38
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  04/08/2015
  • Status:  Offline

22 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Not surprised your head hurts... mine does now!

Hmmm ok maybe:

Anyone who adopts an OEC type theology or accepts (pseudo)scientific evidence of long times must engage in some kind of temporal joinery to the YEC Scriptural standard. Most use a hot doggin’ technique in that YEC Scripture spacetime =1 hotdog and they chop it up to insert the other lengths in between to achieve some final product length. It is messy and ‘bad handling’ because both YEC and OEC spacetimes contain mile markers. But they (including me ) generally glom it on one end or try to formulaic divide it into equal parts here +there...The worst technique is to regrind everything and cast it into new skins and step back and say “Well it’s in there!” without specifically counting the markers out in a sensible way and the YEC community rightfully shakes it head at that type of joinery technique.

Wye spacetime joinery is a whole separate category because people have ‘hot dogs fit in hotbuns’ mentality (truth mechanism and measuring schemes) and generally aren’t prepared for information paradoxes at the convergences. If we bring together two hotdogs it automatically doubles in size (inflation) jumbo dog but if the spacetime size remains the same then information has to superimpose and it is easy enough to invoke quantum mechanical ideas here to the narrative.  Holding to those same ideas in retrospective analysis however is an ugly mess. Lets say Wye- L the left path  is YEC history as written  and Wye-R is right hand path OEC of 13.7 bya as recorded or extrapolated recording. For our sake the cross-sectional area is always equal along any path spacetime you chose to be looking at. Between Scriptural truth and Creation (pseudo)‘data’  a P shaped spacetime (graph of the letter P with time as the vertical axis) best resolves the observables and extrapolated ‘knowledge’ with the Scriptural account. Anyone in YEC position can always just say ‘Hey forget all that blubbering!’ because the Scriptural path remains (is given) despite the fact that the physical path no longer exists (to Eden I mean physically seeing the flaming sword) Now, there should be paradoxical statements in Scripture at the pivotal moments to indicate that something like this is happening.  They would be paradoxical to things said in Scripture elsewhere. I think they have been commonly pointed out already that: Cain and Seth would only have sisters to marry (strong case) and God ‘remembers’ Noah during the Flood (weak case). “Remembers” can be just a segway. But the lack of non-sisters could be a problem given a law against it later. Neither is very convincing but there nonetheless.

So what about the chiastic structure of the narrative? Does that help?

1.God rests after Creation days:: God takes away time from man’s years just prior to the Flood.

2.God creates ‘mankind’(hypothetical reading) :: God destroys all of mankind (literally reading),

2a. God specifically creates Adam as a representative:: God specifically saves Noah as a representative.

3.God makes the land creatures and the earth:: God unmakes the land creatures and the earth

4.God has to re-create earth for saved Noah to have something to land on and is in “Creation” mode

5. God fills the earth with life just as in the days of Creation. “And it was so.”

The chiastic structure supports a Re-Creation conjecture. Informational structures inside it contain nonsensical paradoxes when the spacetime doesnt automatically double in size.

 An Act of God explains it including the Big Bang expansion as ‘recoupling’ (hot dog +hot dog=  doublehotdog instantaneously)  of the divine spacetime path from The Flood to Gen 1:1. No one has really argued that the YEC and OEC beginnings are not similar.

Therefore an inflaton is ‘unphysical’. God is real.

A temporal miracle here a the Flood is consistent with my posts about naturalization.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  26
  • Topic Count:  61
  • Topics Per Day:  0.03
  • Content Count:  9,602
  • Content Per Day:  4.02
  • Reputation:   7,795
  • Days Won:  21
  • Joined:  09/11/2017
  • Status:  Offline

Chances are it was an ice canopy too. This would explain the mammoths, a warm bloodied animal, frozen whilst standing or running.

After all this cataclysm, there was also far more water on the planet, and though some of it 'receded' into the caverns from whence it came, more was left on the surface than before the flood, overflowing land bridges that were there previously. Whole cities were submerged hundreds of feet. Their remains are still being found.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  269
  • Content Per Day:  0.12
  • Reputation:   74
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  11/05/2017
  • Status:  Offline

On 11/8/2017 at 11:43 PM, dprprb said:

There is temporal structure in the OT that prevents a rational relationship to be developed between the recording that Creation has in it (radioactive decay, geological straitfication, long times ) with Scripture.

The genealogies were not given by God for the intention of dating the earth. 
It is wrong to use them that way. End of story.  

Scripture states that the hills are ancient. 

Edited by SkyWriting
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Junior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  98
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   38
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  04/08/2015
  • Status:  Offline

On 11/10/2017 at 1:47 PM, Abdicate said:

I get where you're coming from, but the average person has a high-school level reading (if even that much) and you're using university style writing that the average Joe can't comprehend without having the same level of education. Words like 'chiastic', and using "Wye-L" when simply saying "taking a left at the fork in the road" would be easier to understand. Know your audience and KISS - Keep it Simple Silly. The following sentence is completely lost even on me and I have science degrees... "Informational structures inside it contain nonsensical paradoxes when the spacetime doesnt automatically double in size." Furthermore, it is imperative that you use proper punctuation and spelling. 

So, from what you're saying, the argument between Young Earth Creationists (YEC) and Old Earth Creationists (OEC) (another rule: spell out acronyms with first use) is that they're using different points in time, sort of like before/after images of an event without recognizing the event that made the difference, i.e. the Flood. I fully agree with that. Two factors prove this: the average lifespan before and after the flood had a dramatic change, e.g. 900 years vs. 80 years; the second is that it never rained before the flood since a mist came up out of the ground to water it. In other words, the ecosystem of the planet changed dramatically. The YEC use the word of God literally, and the OEC apply the events of Noah to Creation as prove of a very OLD earth - the fork in the road...

With the information given by the word of God, we can see and understand today based on yesterday's events. To explain the change in lifespan, one could see how our sun's radiation shortens our lives. Since we (at least those of us who believe a literal reading of the word of God) know that in the flood, it rained 40 days and 40 nights. This begs the questions: where did all that water come from? Why didn't it rain before? So the understanding of Genesis 1:7 is there was an expanse created between the two bodies of water. Today people assume it was referring to the humid air we breath with the saturation of hydrogen and oxygen floating in outer space. To me, because of the flood narrative, the water "above the expanse" is where the rain came from. The fountains of the deep also broke apart shooting water up into the stratosphere, freezing and gravity pulling it back down. This is why we have polar caps today and rivers frozen while fish were still swimming in it at the time of the event. The physical evidence of an instant freeze is well documented, but hard to understand without including the flood as the cause.

Backing out of that rabbit hole, if the waters above the expanse collapsed and fell to the earth, what would have been its affects on the planet before its collapse? A greenhouse effect which would have blocked the UV rays from the sun. The heat that escapes today into space would have been trapped by this water barrier. What else would the flood have caused? The breakup of the Pangaea (a super-continent, i.e. one land mass instead of the continents we have today) and the creation of the mountains with the movement of the tectonic plates moving about today creating earthquakes, volcanoes and higher mountains and lower valleys. In other words, the flood broke up the land, ruptured the water canopy surrounding the earth, and created the oceans. Remember, the waters were gathered together to allow the land to appear, Genesis 1:9. That gathering of the water were the fountains of the great deep which shot up, broke the land and the water barrier causing all the water to accumulate in what we now call oceans. Am I right? Who knows. It's one possible understanding with the information given by the word of God.

If we look at the information written in the word of God, analyse the conditions now with what happened at the flood, we can explain many many things. The truth is right there once you get past a biased opinion.

 

 

Thank you for the KISS reminder.  As time goes it is getting easier and easier to process and relate and Im finding more and more interesting effects to mull over but it really needs to be structurally evaluated and dealt with outside of the theological implications first.  Im just using the tool kit that God has available to Him. I believe that for the most part we are on the same page with 'the waters' being Noahs Flood and Gen1:1 and the consequence of having two separate timelines eclipses most positions that people take regarding assembling events in sequences. It is very difficult to think of long sequences happening relative to another short sequence as relativity suggests can occur. Getting both to meet together makes a pretty good mess of things. For clarification: So the Scripture based timeline for the sequence of time is the straight part of the P  as imagined inside of a 3D letter.  The old earth -longtime scenario is the shape of a question mark - sharing the short straight lower section branching off at the Flood and rejoining at the top (beginning)......

 

(A simple doubling in size at the point of inflation is not enough to account for the actual amount needed/predicted as part of the work of Alan Guth et al. after him. -I accept that recombinations of separate timelines conjecture can predict a instant change of size but Im not defining an amount of exponential expansion....)

I just recognize Creation as being created by God having truth to it as well.(I take Scripture about this being a fallen world or Satans world to be indicative of the choices between good and evil that must be made in contrast to heaven where they are not)  And I think it of interest that 'in paradise' and 'in paradox' may be opposite states. 

I was thinking about paradoxes today in that how quickly we generate that type of situation in our minds. If I say God caused the first thing and created everything then "God created and allows evil to exist" is paradoxical. It is not a true statement because God didnt choose evil. I dont even think it is a consequence of His choice.  In Christ an innocent man dies for evil- another paradox and even under the Roman law is traded for a known murderer by rational people! Who trades like that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...