Jump to content
IGNORED

7 Mountains = 7 fallen angels?


unworthydude

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Junior Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  105
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   61
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/24/2015
  • Status:  Offline

 

To continue my discussion with Last Daze, we started talking about Satan, the fallen angels, and the abyss so I wanted to start a discussion on that topic and share my thoughts and get feedback without derailing other thread subjects.

For any eschatology students, here are some possible insights that might be helpful as we all seek to learn together. I also highly recommend Michael Heiser’s book, “The Unseen Realm”, in your studies for a solid background to support the supernatural worldview I am promoting below.  I won’t ruin his book for you, but only to say that in it, he reveals how the sin of the angels in Gen 6 became important to the biblical story and a passage in Deut 32:8 teaches that the nations were given over to the “Sons of God” and he defends that translation as a Hebrew scholar. He does an excellent job uncovering the hidden plot playing out behind the biblical scene. Well, with that in mind, here are some points to consider as well that I have discovered by God’s grace.

In Rev 12:3 and other passages, we are told that Satan, the dragon, has seven heads and ten horns. It says later that the ten horns are kings who rule with the beast for an hour (Rev 17:12). I have always considered the seven mountains to be a succession of historical nations as I think most of you have until I came across several passages that led me to reconsider this position.

 I now propose that the seven heads are fallen arch-angels who are under their authority of a main fallen angel and that these angels will be temporarily loosed to come back as they did in Gen 6 to inflict specific judgments. Whereas the 10 horns are possibly just human kings who fight alongside the fallen angels (Ezek 38:9, 39:4 "you and all your hordes, and many peoples with you."). I am open to the 10 kings also being possible fallen angels too based on Daniel 7:20, "his companions".

Here is my evidence so far for this proposition:

*         First, the angel that comes out of the abyss is called a king, prince or ruler in the greek (Rev 9:11).

*         Second, in Rev 12:7, 9, it repeatedly describes Satan and “his angels”. It makes sense that these angel kings are also on his head. This is similar to the king and his locust army that comes out the abyss who also have crowns (Rev 9:7).

*         Third, fallen angels elsewhere in scripture are also called princes or rulers in Daniel 10:13, 20-21.

*          Fourth, we see in Rev 9:14, that there are four angels bound and then released at the Euphrates. Could these angelic hosts who return explain the verse in Rev 17:10 “five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come,”? Contextually they are the previous five fallen angels in John’s timeframe; the wormwood star (Rev 8:10-11), the star of the abyss (Rev 9:1), with the four of the Euphrates (Rev 9:14) already fallen?

*         Fifth, the seventh king beast in Rev 17:10-11 comes from the abyss (Rev 11:7 and Rev 17:8). Why not the other 6 kings as well?

*         Sixth, In the book of 1 Enoch, seven fallen angels in the abyss are called mountains. The Bible says Enoch prophesied truth in Jude 1:14-15. Does that make him a true prophet based on the Deut 18 test? At least consider its statements on this subject. Here is a free online version of 1 Enoch.

In Enoch chapter 56:1-15, he says that the angels return in v. 5, to instigate the Parthians and Medes (Iran). See also: Jer 51:11,28, Isa 13:17

1. And I saw there the hosts of the angels of punishment going, and they held scourges and chains of iron and bronze. 2. And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: 'To whom are these who hold the scourges going?' 3. And he said unto me: 'To their elect and beloved ones, that they may be cast into the chasm of the abyss of the valley. 4. And then that valley shall be filled with their elect and beloved, And the days of their lives shall be at an end, And the days of their leading astray shall not thenceforward be reckoned. 5. And in those days the angels shall return And hurl themselves to the east upon the Parthians and Medes: They shall stir up the kings, so that a spirit of unrest shall come upon them, And they shall rouse them from their thrones, That they may break forth as lions from their lairs, And as hungry wolves among their flocks. 6. And they shall go up and tread under foot the land of His elect ones, [And the land of His elect ones shall be before them a threshing-floor and a highway:] 7 But the city of my righteous shall be a hindrance to their horses. And they shall begin to fight among themselves, And their right hand shall be strong against themselves, And a man shall not know his brother, Nor a son his father or his mother, Till there be no number of the corpses through their slaughter, And their punishment be not in vain. 8 In those days Sheol shall open its jaws, And they shall be swallowed up therein And their destruction shall be at an end; Sheol shall devour the sinners in the presence of the elect.'

What is especially interesting is that 1 Enoch chapter 18:11-15 then describes the angels who are in the abyss. The fallen angels are described as "mountains."

11. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns ⌈⌈of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns⌉⌉ of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth. 12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. 13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.'

He discusses further details in 1 Enoch chapter 19:1-2, 20:1-2 and in chapter 21:1-10 he again repeats the seven angels of the abyss as mountains.

1. And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. 2. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. 3. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. 4. Then I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' 5. Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? 6. These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' 7. And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. 8. Then I said: 'How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' 9. Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' 10. And he said ⌈⌈unto me⌉⌉: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'

*         Seventh, the fallen angels seem to have corresponding holy angels over them that they contend with.

-       We can see this angelic contrast in Rev 12:7 Michael and his angels fight with the dragon and his angels.

 

-       We can see this angelic contrast in (Daniel 10:13, 20-21) with Gabriel and Michael contending with the princes of Persia and Greece.

-          We can see this angelic contrast with the four horns of the bronze or golden alter vs the four angels loosed at the Euphrates in (Rev 9:13-15).

-          We can see this angelic contrast in (Zech 1:19) with the four horns that scatter Judah vs. (Zech 1:20-21) the four craftsmen who come to cast down the horns.

-          We can see this angelic contrast in 1 Enoch chapters 18-21, there are 7 mountains describing the fallen angels in the abyss and then in 1 Enoch chapters 24-26, 31-32 we see seven heavenly mountains. Interestingly, Jerusalem is the mountain throne at the center of these mountains and in chapter 24:6, Michael is said to be “their leader”.

-          In Rev 5:6, Jesus the Lamb is said to have 7 horns and seven eyes of spirits throughout the earth. Are these the 7 arch-angels of heaven mentioned in 1 Enoch?

-          We can see this angelic contrast in the unholy antichrist who is called the “chief prince” in Ezek 39:1 and with the holy Archangel Michael also being called a "chief prince" in Dan 10:13 and in Rev 12:7 Michael has "his angels" and the dragon has "his angels". There seems to be a hierarchical reign within the two differing angelic camps.

I have further research to add but will just leave it here to start the discussion. I’m hoping for others to come along and help dig further into this possible interpretation.

 Thanks for reading

(This information posted has been my own research except for Heiser’s scriptural input of Deut 32:8)

 

 

 

 

Edited by unworthydude
  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  84
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  3,987
  • Content Per Day:  1.13
  • Reputation:   2,517
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  07/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

34 minutes ago, unworthydude said:

 

To continue my discussion with Last Daze, we started talking about Satan, the fallen angels, and the abyss so I wanted to start a discussion on that topic and share my thoughts and get feedback without derailing other thread subjects.

For any eschatology students, here are some possible insights that might be helpful as we all seek to learn together. I also highly recommend Michael Heiser’s book, “The Unseen Realm”, in your studies for a solid background to support even further my propositions below.  I won’t ruin his book for you, but only to say that in it, he reveals how the sin of the angels in Gen 6 became important to the biblical story and a passage in Deut 32:8 teaches that the nations were given over to the “Sons of God” and he defends that translation as a Hebrew scholar. He does an excellent job uncovering the hidden plot playing out behind the biblical scene. Well, with that in mind, here are some points to consider as well that I have discovered by God’s grace.

In Rev 12:3 and other passages, we are told that Satan, the dragon, has seven heads and ten horns. It says later that the ten horns are kings who rule with the beast for an hour (Rev 17:12). I have always considered the seven mountains to be a succession of historical nations as I think most of you have until I came across several passages that led me to reconsider this position.

 I now propose that the seven heads are fallen arch-angels who are under their authority of a main fallen angel and that these angels will be temporarily loosed to come back as they did in Gen 6 to inflict specific judgments. Whereas the 10 horns are possibly just human kings who fight alongside the fallen angels (Ezek 38:9, 39:4 "you and all your hordes, and many peoples with you."). I am open to the 10 kings also being possible fallen angels too based on Daniel 7:20, "his companions".

Here is my evidence so far for this proposition:

*         First, the angel that comes out of the abyss is called a king, prince or ruler in the greek (Rev 9:11).

*         Second, in Rev 12:7, 9, it repeatedly describes Satan and “his angels”. It makes sense that these angel kings are also on his head. This is similar to the king and his locust army that comes out the abyss who also have crowns (Rev 9:7).

*         Third, fallen angels elsewhere in scripture are also called princes or rulers in Daniel 10:13, 20-21.

*          Fourth, we see in Rev 9:14, that there are four angels bound and then released at the Euphrates. Could these angelic hosts who return explain the verse in Rev 17:10 “five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come,”? Contextually they are the previous five fallen angels in John’s timeframe; the wormwood star (Rev 8:10-11), the star of the abyss (Rev 9:1), with the four of the Euphrates (Rev 9:14) already fallen?

*         Fifth, the seventh king beast in Rev 17:10-11 comes from the abyss (Rev 11:7 and Rev 17:8). Why not the other 6 kings as well?

*         Sixth, I have found some surprising information in the book of 1 Enoch. The Bible says he prophesied truth in Jude 1:14-15. Does that make him a true prophet based on the Duet 18 test? At least consider its statements on this subject. Here is a free online version of 1 Enoch.

In Enoch chapter 56:1-15, he says that the angels return in v. 5, to instigate the Parthians and Medes (Iran). See also: Jer 51:11,28, Isa 13:17

1. And I saw there the hosts of the angels of punishment going, and they held scourges and chains of iron and bronze. 2. And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: 'To whom are these who hold the scourges going?' 3. And he said unto me: 'To their elect and beloved ones, that they may be cast into the chasm of the abyss of the valley. 4. And then that valley shall be filled with their elect and beloved, And the days of their lives shall be at an end, And the days of their leading astray shall not thenceforward be reckoned. 5. And in those days the angels shall return And hurl themselves to the east upon the Parthians and Medes: They shall stir up the kings, so that a spirit of unrest shall come upon them, And they shall rouse them from their thrones, That they may break forth as lions from their lairs, And as hungry wolves among their flocks. 6. And they shall go up and tread under foot the land of His elect ones, [And the land of His elect ones shall be before them a threshing-floor and a highway:] 7 But the city of my righteous shall be a hindrance to their horses. And they shall begin to fight among themselves, And their right hand shall be strong against themselves, And a man shall not know his brother, Nor a son his father or his mother, Till there be no number of the corpses through their slaughter, And their punishment be not in vain. 8 In those days Sheol shall open its jaws, And they shall be swallowed up therein And their destruction shall be at an end; Sheol shall devour the sinners in the presence of the elect.'

What is especially interesting is that 1 Enoch chapter 18:11-15 then describes the angels who are in the abyss. The fallen angels are described as "mountains."

11. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns ⌈⌈of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns⌉⌉ of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards the height and towards the depth. 12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. 13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 15. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. 16. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guilt should be consummated (even) for ten thousand years.'

He discusses further details in 1 Enoch chapter 19:1-2, 20:1-2 and in chapter 21:1-10 he again repeats the seven angels of the abyss as mountains.

1. And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. 2. And I saw there something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. 3. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains and burning with fire. 4. Then I said: 'For what sin are they bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' 5. Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels, who was with me, and was chief over them, and said: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? 6. These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' 7. And from thence I went to another place, which was still more horrible than the former, and I saw a horrible thing: a great fire there which burnt and blazed, and the place was cleft as far as the abyss, being full of great descending columns of fire: neither its extent or magnitude could I see, nor could I conjecture. 8. Then I said: 'How fearful is the place and how terrible to look upon!' 9. Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'Enoch, why hast thou such fear and affright?' And I answered: 'Because of this fearful place, and because of the spectacle of the pain.' 10. And he said ⌈⌈unto me⌉⌉: 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'

*         Seventh, the fallen angels seem to have corresponding holy angels over them that they contend with.

-       We can see this angelic contrast in Rev 12:7 Michael and his angels fight with the dragon and his angels.

 

-       We can see this angelic contrast in (Daniel 10:13, 20-21) with Gabriel and Michael contending with the princes of Persia and Greece.

-          We can see this angelic contrast with the four horns of the bronze or golden alter vs the four angels of loosed at the Euphrates in (Rev 9:13-15).

-          We can see this angelic contrast in (Zach 1:19) with the four horns that scatter Judah vs. (Zach 1:20-21) the four craftsmen who come to cast down the horns.

-          We can see this angelic contrast in 1 Enoch chapters 18-21, there are 7 mountains describing the fallen angels in the abyss and then in 1 Enoch chapters 24-26, 31-32 we see seven heavenly mountains. Interestingly, Jerusalem is the mountain throne at the center of these mountains and in chapter 24:6, Michael is said to be “their leader”.

-          In Rev 5:6, Jesus the Lamb is said to have 7 horns and seven eyes of spirits throughout the earth. Are these the 7 arch-angels of heaven mentioned in 1 Enoch?

-          We can see this angelic contrast in the unholy antichrist is called the “chief prince” in Ezek 39:1 and with the holy Archangel Michael  also  being called a "chief prince" in Dan 10:13 and in Rev 12:7 Michael has "his angels" and the dragon has "his angels". There seems to be a hierarchical reign within the two differing angelic camps.

I have further research to add but will just leave it here to start the discussion. I’m hoping for others to come along and help dig further into this possible interpretation.

 Thanks for reading

(This information posted has been my own research except for Heiser’s scriptural input of Duet 32:8)

Very interesting subject matter . . . to me anyway.  I have recently listened to some interviews of Michael Heiser and will soon be reading "The Unseen Realm". 

I largely agree with what you've put forth.  I'm not terribly familiar with 1 Enoch so I can't comment there, but I'll give it a read.

There are a lot of directions this could go but I think I'll start with an overview so you'll know where I'm coming from..  I agree that Satan is the leader in the hierarchy of evil angels.  I see an inseparable connection between the activity of evil angels and what happens on earth.  The seven heads of Satan I see as  earthly kingdoms that are the direct result of evil angel influence as is revealed in Daniel 10.  Revelation 17 says that the seven heads are seven mountains and they are seven kings.  This, to me, confirms the supernatural / natural connection.  The seven mountains are seven "risings" of supernatural influence resulting in a "kingship" in the natural realm.

Where I differ is that I think there are only six evil angels that bring about the seven heads.  The same angel that spawned the sixth head, is well into the process of spawning the seventh head as we type.  The difference is that this time, the other five angels are involved.  This can be seen in the difference of imagery used of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 compared to when he comes up out of the sea in Revelation 13.  In Revelation 13, he not only takes on the imagery of the seven heads of Satan, he also has characteristics of the other beasts of Daniel 7.  He basically runs the show while Satan enters the false prophet and deceives the world.  He is the one to whom Satan gives his power, his throne, and great authority.

I'll leave it at that for now and go see what 1 Enoch has to offer.  Thanks for starting this thread and I look forward to the "gems" that come out of it.

 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Junior Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  105
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   61
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/24/2015
  • Status:  Offline

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

The seven heads of Satan I see as  earthly kingdoms that are the direct result of evil angel influence as is revealed in Daniel 10.

I agree and I'm not opposed to this idea. I do think the fallen angels have kingdoms connected with them because in Daniel 10 we see them directly called the "the prince of Persia" or the "prince of Greece" who Gabriel and Michael fight with. These underworld agents are working behind the scenes but I wonder if they will take on a more physical form on earth. When I read things like, "the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast." in Rev 3:3 or “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?” in Rev 13:4 it makes me think this king is beyond earthly like the pre-flood angels are described in extra-biblical sources. Every description of the anti-christ has him as more than just a human king. I think it's at least possible that this agent of the abyss is more than just a human.

Isaiah 14:12  “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

If that is true then is it not also possible that his 7 heads and 10 horns are also part of the league of underworld angels?

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

The same angel that spawned the sixth head, is well into the process of spawning the seventh head as we type.

I'm not sure it's all the same angel since we see. I also wonder, in Rev 17:10-11 the term "fallen" has been regarded as kingdoms that have passed on in history but could it mean fallen in the Rev 9:1 sense? There does seem to be a succession of fallen angels in Rev 17:10 considering that the 7th and the 8th is from the abyss and going back to perdition. Also, if we connect these fallen angels to kingdoms, do they have to be historical or can they be angelic beast kingdoms that are combined at that latter time suggested in Rev 13:2 by the leading fallen arch-angel? Could John simply be referring to the progressive falling of these angels according to their judgment timeline throughout the tribulation?

It's good to think out loud you might say and try these ideas on for size. I appreciate your feedback and ideas.

Look at how closely Rev 12:3-4 texts aligns the 7 heads and 10 horns to his fallen angels..

Revelation 12:3-4  And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems.  (4)  His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.

 

Edited by unworthydude
  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  84
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  3,987
  • Content Per Day:  1.13
  • Reputation:   2,517
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  07/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

7 minutes ago, unworthydude said:

I am not opposed to this idea. I do think the fallen angels have kingdoms connected with them because in Daniel 10 we see them directly called the "the prince of Persia" or the "prince of Greece" who Gabriel and Michael fight with. These underworld agents are working behind the scenes but I wonder if they will take on a more physical form on earth. When I read things like, "the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast." in Rev 3:3 or “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?” in Rev 13:4 it makes me think this king is beyond earthly like the pre-flood angels are described in extra-biblical sources. Every description of the anti-christ has him as more than just a human king. I think it's at least possible that this agent of the abyss is more than just a human.

Isaiah 14:12  “How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

If that is true then is it not also possible that his 7 heads and 10 horns are also part of the league of underworld angels?

I think in Rev 17:10-11 the term "fallen" has been regarded as kingdoms that have passed on in history. Could it mean fallen in the Rev 9:1 sense? There does seem to be a succession of fallen angels in Rev 17:10 considering that the 7th and the 8th is from the abyss and going back to perdition. Also, if we connect these fallen angels to kingdoms, do they have to be historical or can they be as I suggested, angelic beast kingdoms that are combined at that latter time suggested in Rev 13:2 by the leading fallen arch-angel? Could John simply be referring to the progressive falling of these angels according to their judgment timeline throughout the tribulation?

It's good to think out loud you might say and try these ideas on for size. I appreciate your feedback and ideas.

I guess it's possible that such could be the case.  We know that there have been other "world" kingdoms so what's so special about those seven heads?  I think it has to do with the sons of Israel.

The beast I see as an evil angel, not a man, since he comes up out of the abyss.  Do you know of anything in scripture that suggests that anything other than evil spirit beings inhabit the abyss?  I haven't found anything.  I understand that people say "who is like the beast" so you might be inclined to think that they actually see him, but it is also said that they worshiped the dragon.  I see it as a proxy situation having to do with the interplay between the evil trio (Satan, the beast, the false prophet).  Worship of one is worship of all.

I think the question needs to be asked, "Why would Satan give his power, throne, and great authority to anyone else?"  I think he does so for the purpose of entering the false prophet and deceiving the world by tapping into that power he just gave to the beast, hence the phrase "in the presence of the beast".  Being confined to the fleshly shell of the false prophet must limit his power so he temporarily gives it to the beast so he can access it.  I see the Satan possessed false prophet as the only human in the evil trio.

2 hours ago, unworthydude said:

I am open to the 10 kings also being possible fallen angels too based on Daniel 7:20, "his companions".

And I agree with your earlier thought on the 10 horns.  I see them as evil angels who also have human counterparts. I think this is born in the fact that three of them (human) are torn out by the roots (destroyed, dead Daniel 7:8), while all ten (angelic) wage war against the Lamb (Rev 17:14).

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  55
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  1,678
  • Content Per Day:  0.63
  • Reputation:   300
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/31/2016
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  08/07/1941

            Long ago, God, who has existed forever, formed the angelic beings, in order to serve Him in the Heavenly realms. There are a great number of angels and they have varying degrees of powers. The most powerful of these is Lucifer [light bearer].  It was a sad day for God when Lucifer began to aspire to take over God’s kingship. Lucifer said; “I will be like the Most High.” Isaiah 14:12-14. Then he convinced a third of the other angels to go with him in rebellion against God.

 

God had a dilemma. He couldn’t simply wipe out those beings that He had created, because as a perfect and righteous God, to arbitrarily destroy them would not prove His just sentence against them.

What was required were witnesses – intelligent, unbiased and independent jurors to sit at this trial of Lucifer and his followers, so that the defendants could not say to God- you are unjust. Job 34:10-12

So God thought about that universe that He had created in another dimension and tidied up a suitable planet in it. He prepared a beautiful garden, and then formed a man and a woman in His likeness. They were given free will over their actions.

I am sure that God would have been quite happy had Adam and Eve continued in obedience to Him. However, I guess God knew that they wouldn’t and sin came into this world.

And so, the first civilization gradually fell into worse and worse sin, until God wiped them out with a great flood, saving only one family.

Once again, the population increased and God decided that one righteous man would father a nation that would become “a light to all nations” in order to show the world His ways and be a people who would become His jurors and His friends. Isaiah 43:10-11

God showed His love for these people by rescuing them from bondage in Egypt, giving them His laws and settling them into the Promised Land. According to His plan, they divided into two Kingdoms - the House of Judah and the House of Israel. 1 Kings 12:24

Sadly, even these peoples backslid into apostasy and idolatry.  So, ‘God flung them out of His presence.’ Jeremiah 23:39 They went into exile among the nations of the world. The House of Judah remains a visible entity, but the House of Israel is lost to our knowledge – only to be identified when all twelve tribes are gathered into the Land.

 

Into Judah, God sent His Son, Jesus, to clearly tell all who would listen how to live righteously in God’s sight.  In order to atone for men’s sins, there has to be a sacrifice.   Jesus made that sacrifice for all those who accept Him as saviour, by His death on the Cross.  He also demonstrated God’s power over death and Lucifer by rising to life again.

 

Now, nearly two thousand years later, most of Judah still refuse to recognise the Messiah, but Righteous Israelites – those who love God and follow in His ways – await their redemption. Soon the Promised Land will be cleared of all the ungodly peoples, Jeremiah 12:14, Ezekiel 30:1-5, and His faithful Christian people, Romans 9:24-26,  will gather in it with great joy and gladness. Isaiah 35:10, Ezekiel 34:1-16, Revelation 7:9

 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  10
  • Topic Count:  97
  • Topics Per Day:  0.03
  • Content Count:  5,039
  • Content Per Day:  1.47
  • Reputation:   2,541
  • Days Won:  4
  • Joined:  11/06/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  09/01/1950

On 11/17/2017 at 9:11 AM, unworthydude said:

In Rev 12:3 and other passages, we are told that Satan, the dragon, has seven heads and ten horns. It says later that the ten horns are kings who rule with the beast for an hour (Rev 17:12). I have always considered the seven mountains to be a succession of historical nations as I think most of you have until I came across several passages that led me to reconsider this position.

 I now propose that the seven heads are fallen arch-angels who are under their authority of a main fallen angel and that these angels will be temporarily loosed to come back as they did in Gen 6 to inflict specific judgments.

Rev. 17:10 ...Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

I don't have time to adequately get into this, so I'll just opine that you need to combine your two views: these seven were/are the spiritual rulers over the seven nations that oppressed/will oppress God's people. The one "that is" in John's day was the heavenly principality over Rome. The five previously "fallen" were the principalities over Egypt, Assyria, Chaldeo-Babylon, Persia, and Greece-Macedonia, the first five oppressors of Israel.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  10
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,957
  • Content Per Day:  0.57
  • Reputation:   295
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

WilliamL

 

I would suggest that 5 have fallen and 2 remain for the time of the end .... the 5th fallen was that of Antiochus IV [Daniel 11:21-35]

The 6th and 7th will come into play during the 70th week decreed for Israel [Daniel 11:36-45]

First the smaller kingdom, and then the larger one during the coming tribulation period

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/17/2017 at 11:11 AM, unworthydude said:

In Rev 12:3 and other passages, we are told that Satan, the dragon, has seven heads and ten horns. It says later that the ten horns are kings who rule with the beast for an hour (Rev 17:12). I have always considered the seven mountains to be a succession of historical nations as I think most of you have until I came across several passages that led me to reconsider this position.

 I now propose that the seven heads are fallen arch-angels

Awesome connection! I’d always heard the 7 mountains were a reference to Rome (Vatican), but I recall while  perusing 1 Enoch about the angels and the mountains image. I’ll check that out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Junior Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  105
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   61
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/24/2015
  • Status:  Offline

What's further interesting and supportive of this idea that I'm proposing is that in Michael Heiser's books, he points out that in the ancient Mesopotamian writings, there were seven antediluvian or preflood angelic/demi-god like beings called "Apkallus" who produced human/divine offspring. After the flood, the seven Apkallu were sent to a place called Abzu or the underworld.  Also, in 1 Enoch these fallen angels similarly teach and corrupt mankind as the Apkallu are also said to have taught mankind knowledge. The Mesopotamian world revered them but in the Bible and in 1 Enoch these fallen angels were condemned.

Here are some links to further read on them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apkallu

http://www.livius.org/articles/concept/apkallu/

Edited by unworthydude
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Junior Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  105
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   61
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  12/24/2015
  • Status:  Offline

On 11/17/2017 at 1:00 PM, Last Daze said:

And I agree with your earlier thought on the 10 horns.  I see them as evil angels who also have human counterparts. I think this is born in the fact that three of them (human) are torn out by the roots (destroyed, dead Daniel 7:8), while all ten (angelic) wage war against the Lamb (Rev 17:14).

I found this passage in 1 Enoch 6:7-8 that's talking about the "lawless ones" or fallen angels and says, "These are their chiefs of tens."...

And these are the names of their leaders: Samiazaz, their leader, Arakiba, Rameel, Kokabiel, Tamiel, Ramiel, Danel, ezeqeel, Baraqijal, Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. 8These are their chiefs of tens.

I wonder if the seven angels in the abyss will also rule over a ten of lower angels? Just a thought.

 

Edited by unworthydude
Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...