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An unprecedented event: would you join this?


listener24

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On 12/12/2017 at 12:49 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, all.

Now that it's settled down a little, I'd like to repeat this post and put an exclamation to it. How can you expect the Lord to return any time soon if we don't herald the good news about the Kingdom?!

 

On 12/13/2017 at 7:10 PM, MyLordsServant said:

Amen! Soldiers of Christ, go out and spread the good news of the Kingdom! That the way of the King is prepared in his Glorious return!

Wash your garments, polish your sword, and put on the Armor of God.

 

 

There is zeal when it comes to "guess" the right pre/post/a/anti/multi trib version. There is zeal when it comes to inventing new human prayers.

There is zeal when it comes to discussing whether Saturday is a more important than Sunday, or vice-versa. There is zeal when it comes to discuss if we are doing good deeds "because we are saved" or "to be saved". Isn't it? Countless threads, countless at the forefront.

But when it comes to follow Jesus command, to pray for actively hastening the coming of the Kingdom (Luke 18:1-8, Lord's prayer, 2Peter 3:12, last prayer in Revelation), we are few, aren't we? 

"At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, 'Come, for everything is now ready."But they all alike began to make excuses.""

It is funny that in the parable it is written "everything is now ready". Almost like the Kingdom of Heaven was ready, but none wanted to really enter. Almost none is actively asking, but we are accumulating human excuses to not ask for it, regardless how Scriptural it is this request. Excuses that we would never make about any other prayers :)

But I'm encouraged that at least some, like you, are keeping up this intention. There is still hope. 

 

 

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On 12/12/2017 at 12:40 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, listener24.

Sure. You had said on 11/26/17, 'Last, I'm not asking for "me", because the Lord's prayer is plural. I'm asking for us, as the prayer says, because Jesus' Return will be a collective event.'

Did you mean, "the Return of Jesus will be an event when He collects us (catches us away)," or
did you mean, "the Return of Jesus will be an all-inclusive event?"

Oh I understand now, didn't spot the ambiguity last time. :)

The meaning of the sentence was the latter, like "all-inclusive".

But I don't have any strong position on "how" it will happen, i.e. don't have a position on the pre/post/a/multi etc. trib topic. I've analyzed all of them, and all of them have interesting arguments and Scriptures in favor. 

I don't think is even needed to have a position on that for asking "thy Kingdom come", with the intention and responsibility of actively hastening His coming, because other events like tribulations are things that happens in CORRELATION with Jesus coming, not as CAUSATION.

But I think it is needed the intention and understanding and fully responsibility of what we ask, otherwise is vain repetition, it's just babbling.

We know from science and elementary logic that correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. So the fact that when He talks about the last days Jesus speak about a tribulation, doesn't mean that it will be tribulation to CAUSE his Coming, but just that there is a correlation of a tribulation happening in the last days, and the Second Coming.

What's your position on this? 

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There is a cry going forth from mainstream Christianity that the current disunity within Christendom needs to be addressed, and that uniting on those points upon which all can agree must be pursued with vigor in order to keep the Christian message alive and relevant to a post-modern society. And we are all fully aware as to who is leading the charge. Whilst it is indeed true that the number of Christian denominations, and independent churches,are many, and increasing exponentially, ‘unity’ at all costs, particularly at the cost of truth, must be avoided by any and all means.

The Bible tells us (for those who claim the name of Christ and still believe in the Bible) that the time is coming that the only denominations at the time of the end will be those who have accepted the mark of the beast and are worshiping according to the government dictates. They are the daughters of the Mother, Babylon the Great. Because they have left the truth, they have become harlots in the same character as their mother from whom they originally came. This will leave only a small minority, a united (in Christ) movement who resist the majority traditions and pressures of the NWO. If they were at any stage a denomination, it has long been annulled by government decree due to their practicing their religion according to the Bible, and the Bible only. Teaching the true gospel, they will be accused of hate speech, hated of all nations for Christ’s sake, (Matt.10:22; 24:9.) and be considered the execration of society. Accused of being the cause of God’s judgments falling upon the earth, they will in the end be sentenced to death. This is they who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.(Revel. 12:17; 14:12) They are the only ones patiently waiting for Christ’s coming. And the only ones to be translated when He appears in glory. The majority have long given up hope of the second coming; the Bible is no longer seen as relevant to modern society, its history shrouded even now in doubt and skepticism; and doctrine no longer viewed as necessary to salvation, because today there are as many roads that lead to heaven as there are that lead to Rome.
The minority believers are united in the cause for truth, in the preaching of truth in the power of the Holy Spirit, in the living of truth by their living faith in the grace of God. One with Jesus and the Father, empowered by the Spirit of God, they love one another and their chief priority in life is to see as many people as possible come out of Babylon into a saving relationship with Christ.
They have a Truth they know is not to be compromised, and with courage and selfless love for lost souls, they repudiate everything not in harmony with that Truth.
Soon “let us be united” will be the rallying cry of the majority. And unite they will, but under a banner of error and deception.
Beware of false calls to unity. Have a look at Matthew 24:4-9. Note that up to the first part of verse 7, the world is in utter disarray. Wars and rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom. This has been the state of this world since Cain slew Abel. Conflict has been the one constant thread that is woven throughout human history. But note that in verse 9 there is a major shift. A dramatic shift. We see the nations of the world united for the very first time…but for what cause?....they are united against the church!

But let us pause a little and also consider Revelation 13:3…all the world wondered after the beast…. 8: and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship.…14: and deceiveth them that dwell upon the earth…The whole world is going to be deceived into false worship. This will not be Islam. Babylon the Great is a symbol of the Roman Catholic Church, it is NOT Islam. Although there is a likelihood, short of a major miracle, that Islam will be joined to Babylon...as will all other non-Christian faiths. The world will be deceived into worshiping according to Roman tradition; or at least will be honoring those essential points that Rome will consider sufficient for acceptance; they will believe they are worshiping according to the truth, for they are deceived. Thus the final great conflict of the ages is not between atheism and theism, but will be between two brothers, one worshiping according to truth and revelation, the other according to tradition and occultist and demonic new age philosophy. An end time repeat of Cain and Abel. What evils and wickedness that permeated religious intolerance  during the 1ooo odd years of papal dominion in Europe during the dark ages will be repeated on a global scale with as much ardor, fanaticism, and violence as the worst of the inquisitions of the past.

Our allegiances in those days will not about denominations but about truth and obedience to the commandments of God as opposed to the commandments of men.

The coming separation of Christianity under the aegis of the false prophet is the separation we ought to be more concerned about. For then there will be only two sides. How do you know you wont be deceived along with the rest of the world? How do you know you aren’t already deceived and ripe picking for the coming NWO? What is it about your beliefs and faith that makes you different from the vast majority of Christianity who will take the side of the Antichrist and worship the beast and his image?

Jesus’ prayer in John 17 is a prayer for unity…unity of the same fashion as Jesus has with His Father…a unity of the church with Christ. It is as we unite with Jesus that we become united with one another. As two converging lines meet at the one point, so also will individual members of the church unite and converge as they meet with Jesus.
There is within Christendom a powerful belief that there will soon be a rise of a world dictator (the Antichrist) who outlaws the Christian religion and forces the world into idolatry with himself as the idol. I have come to a rather different conclusion. The world, currently divided by denominational, ethnic, racial, religious, political and secular beliefs, is forced, or rather deceived, to unite in a form of worship to the beast. This is taking place right now. So rather than religion being outlawed, it is in fact soon to be promoted but in a specific direction dictated by the powers of government in union with church authorities. This dictate will encompass the majority. The vast majority. It will be a remnant, a small minority that clings to true worship.
What divides the two parties, the true and the false, will be determined by the word of God. Both sides believe they have the truth. Both sides believe they are worshiping the true God, even Jesus. Both sides believe they are going to heaven, and the other hell. Both sides believe they are ‘Christian’.
What we all need to ask ourselves is what is it about your current faith that convinces you that it is Truth and not the anti-christ counterfeit that even today is flooding our churches, seminaries, and bible colleges?….and will soon be foisted upon an unsuspecting world and church and lead billions to hell?
Unity is in our relationship: as we focus on our relationship with Jesus, sharing His love and fostering relationships with others, non-essentials will fall away and all we will be left with are those vital truths that secure our salvation…the love of God as revealed at Calvary. Sadly, prophetic revelation informs us that the relationship the majority believe they have is in fact a sham, a deception based on false emotion and false doctrinal foundations.

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Thanks for sharing, its beautiful!

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19 hours ago, listener24 said:

Oh I understand now, didn't spot the ambiguity last time. :)

The meaning of the sentence was the latter, like "all-inclusive".

But I don't have any strong position on "how" it will happen, i.e. don't have a position on the pre/post/a/multi etc. trib topic. I've analyzed all of them, and all of them have interesting arguments and Scriptures in favor. 

I don't think is even needed to have a position on that for asking "thy Kingdom come", with the intention and responsibility of actively hastening His coming, because other events like tribulations are things that happens in CORRELATION with Jesus coming, not as CAUSATION.

But I think it is needed the intention and understanding and fully responsibility of what we ask, otherwise is vain repetition, it's just babbling.

We know from science that correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. So the fact that when He talks about the last days Jesus speak about a tribulation, doesn't mean that it will be tribulation to CAUSE his Coming, but just that there will be a correlation of tribulation happening in the last days.

What's your position on this? 

Shabbat shalom, listener24.

Actually, I believe that the only way to have a proper "position on the pre/post/a/multi etc. trib topic" is to understand our "Jewish roots" and the Hebrew nature of the Bible. Obviously, 39 of the 66 books in the accepted canon of Scripture were written by children of Israel to children of Israel and for children of Israel. IF they superabundantly apply to other nations and peoples, it is THROUGH the children of Israel that blessings to the other nations occur. The prophecy was that "in thee (Avraham) shall all the families of the earth be blessed."

When speaking about the B'rit Chadashah (the NT), although they come to us through Greek and Greek translated into Latin, there's some evidence that the original books, such as some of those books called the "Gospels," were originally written in Aramaic, a "kissing cousin" to Hebrew. Certainly, even when written in Greek, the Hebrew nuances of the phrases and word choice show us that they were written by children of Israel, and again, to the children of Israel and for the children of Israel. Again, the blessings spilled over to the Gentiles because the children of Israel were blinded in part.

HOWEVER, this "blindness in part" is TEMPORARY and shall be lifted in the near future. And, as Paul put it,

Romans 11:11-16 (KJV)

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall [i.e., never to get up]? God forbid: but rather through their fall [stumble] salvation is come unto the Gentiles [non-Israeli nations], for to provoke them [the children of Israel] to jealousy. 12Now if the fall [stumble] of them [the children of Israel] be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them [the children of Israel] the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them [the children of Israel] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them [the children of Israel] be, but life from the dead [RESURRECTION]? 16For if the firstfruit [the wave offering of challah or bread] be holy, the lump [of dough made from the flour] is also holy: and if the root [rootstock] be holy, so are the [individual] branches.

The first thing one needs to understand is that "holy" does NOT mean "righteous." It means "set apart" or "singled out" for some reason. All too often, we who call ourselves "Christians" think the word "holy" means "righteous" and can be used synonymously with it, because we read, "Be ye holy for I am holy." But, righteousness is not the focus of that statement. Think rather that it means "Be special for I am special." In other words, live up to the fact that you've been singled out, just as our God YHWH is unique! Furthermore, words that are related to the word "holy" are "saint" and "sanctify." A "saint" is a "holy one" or a "sanctified individual." And, all three terms mean "one who is set apart" or "one who is singled out." This is how a child of Israel, particularly a "Jew" or one of the tribe of Yhudah (Judah) can be considered "holy" even if he or she is unrighteous. God may not be happy with their lifestyle choices, but He will treat them as wayward children, not as foreigners. And, as Paul later said,

Romans 11:28-29 (KJV)

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [a change of GOD'S mind].

They are not elected (chosen) for anything they have done; they are beloved for their ancestors' sakes! They are treated special because they ARE grandchildren (however far removed) of Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov! For when God calls a nation and gives them gifts, He does not renege on those gifts and calling!

So,...

What does that mean is a controlling factor in Yeshua`s return? Well, Yeshua` said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

And, again, this is a quotation from Psalm 118:26 which in context reads:

Psalm 118:22-26 (KJV)

22The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone [the capstone] of the corner [the pinnacle].
23This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The Hebrew of 26a is "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH," and it translates to "Welcome, Comer on-[the]-authority of-YHWH." So, when the Jews of Jerusalem can say, "Welcome, Yeshua`, Messiah of YHWH," then Yeshua` will return. Furthermore, 26b tells us that they will welcome Him from the Temple! To do that, the Temple must first be rebuilt.

Now, WHY would they be so ready to welcome Him, when they are so adamant against Him today? Well, I believe that when one's back is against the wall, ANY help would be welcome! The old saying is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." When the children of Israel are facing annihilation, they will be ready to welcome Him back. We read,

 

Zechariah 12:2-14

2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces [shall herniate themselves], though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf [of grain]; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Mourning the One they Pierced

(John 19:31-37)

10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

The Complete Jewish Bible says it this way:

Zechariah 12:9-14 (CJB)

9 "When that day comes, I will seek to destroy all nations attacking Yerushalayim
10 and I will pour out on the house of David and on those living in Yerushalayim a spirit of grace and prayer; and they will look to me, whom they pierced." They will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son; they will be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be great mourning in Yerushalayim, mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon in the Megiddo Valley. 
12 Then the land will mourn, each family by itself - the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Natan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shim'i by itself, and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself, and their wives by themselves.

Because the CJB was written by one translator, we find the correlation between this passage and Luke's lineage of Yeshua`:

Luke 3:21-38

21 While all the people were being immersed, Yeshua too was immersed. As he was praying, heaven was opened; 
22 the Ruach HaKodesh came down on him in physical form like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my Son, whom I love; I am well pleased with you." 
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli, 
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef, 
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai, 
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim`i, of Yosef, of Yodah, 
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z'rubavel, of Sh'altiel, of Neri, 
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er, 
29 of Yeshua, of Eli`ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi
30 of Shim`on, of Y'hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim, 
31 of Mal'ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David
32 of Yishai, of `Oved, of Bo`az, of Salmon, of Nachshon, 
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y'hudah, 
34 of Ya`akov, of Yitz'chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor, 
35 of S'rug, of Re`u, of Peleg, of `Ever, of Shelah, 
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh, 
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal'el, of Keinan, 
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.

Therefore, Zechariah 12:12-14 talk about four of the families that are in Yeshua`s lineage! This tells me that Zechariah 12 will take place AFTER the Resurrection when Yeshua` returns because all of these families will be alive once more! Yeshua`, of course, is the One "whom they pierced." These families of the children of Israel will mourn for the Messiah Yeshua` when He returns because He was like their only son if they only had one son or because He was like their firstborn son if they had more than one son because Yeshua` was "in the loins" of His fathers! He was their GRANDSON! And, yet,...

Isaiah 53:3-8 (KJV)

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

NO WONDER they will mourn and grieve for Him!

The bottom line is this: Yeshua` shall return to rescue His people - His FAMILY - His MISHPACHAH, and His desire shall be "to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." There's no proof nor requirement that Yeshua` needs to return 7 years earlier, or even 3.5 years earlier, to rapture out Christians before His wrath falls. Why should He favor THEM more than His own flesh and blood?! No, God's Wrath, administered by His Son, Yeshua` the Messiah, shall not fall on those whom He loves! We shall be His ARMY to HELP Him administer God's Wrath and free His people, the children of Israel!

No one "goes to Heaven when they die," and no one is "raptured to Heaven" prior to His Second Coming! We ARE "snatched away" (Greek: harpazoo, translated as "caught up" in 1 Thes. 4:17) THROUGH the "heavens" (the "skies") to arrive in the Middle East as quickly as possible to assemble as His army and begin to help Him, but that shall happen as PART of His Second Coming! Frankly, He won't wait on us, either; He'll begin without us, starting in Botsrah (Bozrah) of Edowm (Isa. 34; Isa. 63).

Regarding the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure"), we're already IN it, and it's been going on since the First Century A.D! It's the equivalent to "the time of Ya`aqov's Trouble" (Jer. 30:7), which many call the "Church Age." It is that which is "poured upon the desolate (those whom were pronounced "desolate" by Yeshua`)" (Dan. 9:27 cf. Matt. 23:38). Those days will be cut short such that there will be fewer days of actual pressure during the past 2,000 years and into the future. That will provide periods of rest in which the children of Israel can have a reprieve and a short time to breathe to rebuild and propagate, but the pressure will endure until the Messiah returns (Matt. 24:9-31).

Sorry this is so long, but this is the way these verses dovetail for me, and you DID ask.

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11 hours ago, mel85 said:

Thanks for sharing, its beautiful!

Thank you brother! Are you praying like the widow in Luke 18:1-8 our Lord to come? :)

I am!

Maranatha

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Thank you @Retrobyter for your detailed explanation of your position!

I find it very interesting, I definitely see some truths in it, and I have to recognize that you used many Scriptures.

There are also few things I find weird in my opinion.

For instance:

On 12/23/2017 at 2:50 AM, Retrobyter said:

We ARE "snatched away" (Greek: harpazoo, translated as "caught up" in 1 Thes. 4:17) THROUGH the "heavens" (the "skies") to arrive in the Middle East as quickly as possible to assemble as His army and begin to help Him

Let's remember that we are talking about an omnipotent being, who can create and destroy UNIVERSES with a blink of an eye, who can mutate the laws of physics without any effort and create new physics and new universes with the same effort that it takes us to breathe. We are talking about a pre-existent being that can look at universe as we look at a grain of sand, who "saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."(Luke 10:18). 

And now we are saying that Him, the almighty, needs to "grab" some human beings to make them flying in the air before sending them to a battlefield, to fight a tribal battle like a cavemen idol against other insignificant creatures?

I find it exactly like saying that to fight against few ants, the biggest army you can ever imagine needs to "grab" other ants, throw them into the air, then grab them again and put them on the battlefield in this ants' spectacule

Do we remember just how huge is this galaxy? How much power is there in a single star? So much power to make all nuclear arsenals look like a candle? And that is nothing compared to God's power. Would such God need to "fight" with human armies, and maybe horses? 

I think that we'll laugh that day when we'll see our literal interpretation of Revelation fading at the feet of an omnipotent being who doesn't fight like a cavemen idol, but in a blink of an eye, like an instantaneous thunder, can cast satan an his followers to the Hell. 

But that's my opinion, I respect yours. I based this opinion on the simplicity of Matthew 24, by thinking that that Day will come like a thunder, and God in a blink of an eye will cast the evil in the eternal hell without needing to put on Bollywood spectacules.

As you can imagine, like many respected scholars I take most of Revelation symbolically, as it really seems to be, while I take the Gospel absolutely literallyBut I know there are also respected Christians who take Revelation literally, and I respect that.

But we'll see that Day, I'm ready to admit that I was wrong if the spectacle you described will happen. :)

And as said before, we don't need to agree on this to pray together "Maranatha". Cause we ask for the end result, not the intermediate events on which we may disagree and that we can't know with certainty.

God bless you

 

 

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On 12/22/2017 at 8:53 AM, brakelite said:

Unity is in our relationship: as we focus on our relationship with Jesus, sharing His love and fostering relationships with others, non-essentials will fall away and all we will be left with are those vital truths that secure our salvation…the love of God as revealed at Calvary. Sadly, prophetic revelation informs us that the relationship the majority believe they have is in fact a sham, a deception based on false emotion and false doctrinal foundations.

Hi brakelite!

I agree with a lot of things you have written, especially this conclusion.

I agree that "unity" is not a goal in itself, and I'm not interested at all in "union of denominations". 

I think as you said that the union each true Christian should seek is the one with Jesus.

I also believe like you that many are and will be deceived in their denominations, if they don't put Christ above all and obey His words, instead of doctrines of men. 

Let me know if it's not clear that this thread is not about "unity" of denominations at all, it's not even about unity of Christians.

Instead, it is about focusing on the most important prayer taught us by Jesus, the Lord's prayer, and understand the clear intention expressed: hastening the Return of Jesus, the Coming of the Kingdom, the Delivery from evil.

Few are now aware that we can hasten it, as Peter said in 2Peter 3:12. But some are, indeed if you read the sources in my starting thread there is plenty of articles and Scriptures.

If we are not aware of this intention, as millions of Christians today, the Lord's prayer become "vain repetition". If we don't take responsibility of what we ask, if our heart is not pure about the intention, the prayer is just "babbling".

This is the topic of the thread.

But thanks for your digression on unity, it was still helpful :) And let me know if I can make the thread starter more clear by improving something.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, listener24 said:

Thank you @Retrobyter for your detailed explanation of your position!

I find it very interesting, I definitely see some truths in it, and I have to recognize that you used many Scriptures.

There are also few things I find weird in my opinion.

For instance:

Let's remember that we are talking about an omnipotent being, who can create and destroy UNIVERSES with a blink of an eye, who can mutate the laws of physics without any effort and create new physics and new universes with the same effort that it takes us to breathe. We are talking about a pre-existent being that can look at universe as we look at a grain of sand, who "saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."(Luke 10:18). 

And now we are saying that Him, the almighty, needs to "grab" some human beings to make them flying in the air before sending them to a battlefield, to fight a tribal battle like a cavemen idol against other insignificant creatures?

I find it exactly like saying that to fight against few ants, the biggest army you can ever imagine needs to "grab" other ants, throw them into the air, then grab them again and put them on the battlefield in this ants' spectacle. 

Shabbat shalom, listener24.

Yes, of course I'm praying for our Lord's Return and His Kingdom to come!

Yes, I would agree with you regarding God being the omnipotent Being; HOWEVER, you should have said, "WHOM WE CAN IMAGINE creating and destroying UNIVERSES with a blink of an eye, who can mutate the laws of physics without any effort and create new physics and new universes with the same effort it takes us to breathe." See, ONE of His attributes is omnipotence, but He also has many other such attributes; that is, traits that are ATTRIBUTED to Him, although He is not CHARACTERIZED by any of them as we are. We, therefore, have "characteristics," traits by which we are defined. He has "attributes," traits that are attributed to Him and HE defines the traits!

One of His other attributes is EFFICIENCY! He never does anything without PURPOSE! Therefore, one could keep himself in check by asking, "WHY would God 'create and destroy UNIVERSES with a blink of an eye'?" or "WHY would a totally efficient God 'mutate the laws of physics' He created in the first place or 'create new physics and new universes'?" God gave us wonderful imaginations that can be used to invent and innovate new machines and devices, but our imaginations are also our greatest "Achilles' heal!" The imaginations and story-telling abilities of men and women like Stephen Spielburg have given us wonderful books and movies that we can enjoy and learn from, but they also give us horrible, ghastly tales that I wouldn't want anyone to see or experience!

We ABSOLUTELY MUST keep our imaginations in check by paying close attention to the Scriptures themselves! If God says something is going to be done a particular way, then it will happen in that way, regardless how our imaginations could envision it another way! He gives us this information:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That means that He shall send out His messengers (Greek: aggeloi) with a loud trumpet blast, and they shall gather His chosen ones from the four compass directions, from the lowest point of the sky to the highest point of the sky! Sure, He COULD gather them instantaneously, but for His own purposes and in His own wisdom, HE WON'T!

2 hours ago, listener24 said:

I think that we'll laugh that day when we'll see our literal interpretation of Revelation fading at the feet of an omnipotent being who doesn't fight like a cavemen idol, but in a blink of an eye, like an instantaneous thunder, can cast satan an his followers to the Hell. 

But that's my opinion, I respect yours. I based this opinion on the simplicity of Matthew 24, by thinking that that Day we'll come like a thunder, and God in a blink of an eye will cast the evil in the eternal hell without needing to put on Bollywood spectacles.

As you can imagine, like many respected scholars I take most of Revelation symbolically, as it really seems to be, while I take the Gospel absolutely literallyBut I know there are also respected Christians who take Revelation literally, and I respect that.

But we'll see that Day, I'm ready to admit that I was wrong if the spectacle you described will happen. :)

And as said before, we don't need to agree on this to pray together "Maranatha". Cause we ask for the end result, not the intermediate events on which we may disagree and that we can't know with certainty.

God bless you

I find it ironic that you can take certain portions of God's Word literally, but other portions you must relegate to symbolism. There's absolutely no need to change boats in the middle of the stream! If God can take over 400 prophecies about the First Coming of the Messiah and fulfill them literallly, then why not all the rest of the prophecies about His Second Coming? "Let God be true and every man a liar."

Still, I would agree: Maaraanaa' ataah (Aramaic for "our-Master shall-arrive"), although frankly, I believe one CAN know with certainty if one is willing to master the original languages. Thank you for the wish for my happiness from God. May God give you bliss, as well.

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13 hours ago, listener24 said:

...

Let's remember that we are talking about an omnipotent being, who can create and destroy UNIVERSES with a blink of an eye, who can mutate the laws of physics without any effort and create new physics and new universes with the same effort that it takes us to breathe. We are talking about a pre-existent being that can look at universe as we look at a grain of sand, who "saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."(Luke 10:18). 

And now we are saying that Him, the almighty, needs to "grab" some human beings to make them flying in the air before sending them to a battlefield, to fight a tribal battle like a cavemen idol against other insignificant creatures?

I find it exactly like saying that to fight against few ants, the biggest army you can ever imagine needs to "grab" other ants, throw them into the air, then grab them again and put them on the battlefield in this ants' spectacule

Do we remember just how huge is this galaxy? How much power is there in a single star? So much power to make all nuclear arsenals look like a candle? And that is nothing compared to God's power. Would such God need to "fight" with human armies, and maybe horses? 

I think that we'll laugh that day when we'll see our literal interpretation of Revelation fading at the feet of an omnipotent being who doesn't fight like a cavemen idol, but in a blink of an eye, like an instantaneous thunder, can cast satan an his followers to the Hell. 

...

Shalom, listener24.

Sorry, you had made some changes to your original post that I had quoted; so, just a few thoughts on those changes:

While God Himself is the Omnipotent Being, I think you've missed the point: God Himself is NOT the One who will be fighting with human armies and horses. The Scriptures (Yeshua`s own words) say:

John 5:19-30

19Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

People - good, well-meaning people who call themselves "Christians" - will often make the mistake of saying the Yeshua` the Messiah of God (called "Jesus Christ") is God Himself or even use the phrase that He is "God the Son." However, the Bible NEVER makes use of this as a title for Yeshua`. To the contrary, He is called "the Son of God," a NOTABLE difference! Yeshua`, in this passage of Yochanan's (John's) account of Yeshua`s life, made a CLEAR distinction between Himself and His Father and said, "the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son." Therefore, it will not be the Omnipotent God, the Father of Yeshua`, who will "make them [human beings] flying in the air before sending them to a battlefield, to fight a tribal battle"; that would be YESHUA` HIMSELF who sends His messengers throughout the earth to gather His elect!

You called human beings "ants" compared to God the Father, and you would be right; however, ...

Romans 8:3 (KJV)

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient, even unto death.

Later, we read this about Yeshua`,

Hebrews 1:1-9 (KJV)

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

And, Paul said,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

The Order of Resurrection

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (the Messiah) shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So, the Son of God, Yeshua` the Messiah of God, is NOT the same as the God the Father, and ultimately, the Son of God shall be subject unto God the Father, that God, the Father, may be all in all.

So, the Son of God, Yeshua` the Messiah of God, was made an "ant" like we are! And, being a body like we are bodies, the things we do TAKE TIME TO ACCOMPLISH! This is seen in Matthew 24, as well:

Matthew 24:5-14 (KJV)

False Christs

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (the Messiah of God); and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Witnessing to All Nations

(Mark 13:10-13; Luke 21:10-19)

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (rescued; delivered). 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

All of this TAKES TIME TO ACCOMPLISH! Consider: With MANY false messiahs and many false prophets, they shall not all appear on the scene at once! They will come one at a time and usually after a population, once "burnt" by the deceit of such a false messiah and/or a false prophet, has had enough time that a new generation arises that is less suspicious and more gullible to accept another false messiah or a false prophet.

Wars between nations and kingdoms also TAKE TIME TO WAGE, and there will be victims and victors who may go on to fight other wars, but seldom is it just chaos as everyone is fighting everyone else! People fight ONE war at a time, siding with those who have the same grievances. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Thus, while there may be several fronts, there's only one war.

And, all the words, "famines, pestilences, and earthquakes" do NOT all happen at the same time, either! They pop up at random times and in random places, based on wars, crop failures, weather conditions, etc.

So, Matthew 24 is NOT instantaneous!

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