An unprecedented event: would you join this?

[listener24]

Hi @Retrobyter,

sorry for the late reply but you had a lot of great hints here. Let's dive into them:

On 12/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

Yes, of course I'm praying for our Lord's Return and His Kingdom to come!

 

awesome it's a pity that we are so few doing it  :/  

On 12/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

Yes, I would agree with you regarding God being the omnipotent Being; HOWEVER, you should have said, "WHOM WE CAN IMAGINE 

[...]

One of His other attributes is EFFICIENCY! He never does anything without PURPOSE! Therefore, one could keep himself in check by asking, "WHY would God 'create and destroy UNIVERSES with a blink of an eye'?" or "WHY would a totally efficient God 'mutate the laws of physics' He created in the first place or 'create new physics and new universes'?

 

I agree, and I completely agree that EFFICIENCY is one attribute to absolutely keep in mind. Keeping in mind efficiency should prevent us from inventing unnecessary steps that we think God will take for realizing His plan.

On 12/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

That means that He shall send out His messengers (Greek: aggeloi) with a loud trumpet blast, and they shall gather His chosen ones from the four compass directions, from the lowest point of the sky to the highest point of the sky! Sure, He COULD gather them instantaneously, but for His own purposes and in His own wisdom, HE WON'T!

Quote

You are right here. I can see a "purpose" in this case: I think He does that for us, cause an "instantaneous" thing may be shocking, but that's just a hypothesis. 

On 12/23/2017 at 11:30 PM, Retrobyter said:

I find it ironic that you can take certain portions of God's Word literally, but other portions you must relegate to symbolism. There's absolutely no need to change boats in the middle of the stream! If God can take over 400 prophecies about the First Coming of the Messiah and fulfill them literallly, then why not all the rest of the prophecies about His Second Coming? "Let God be true and every man a liar."

I have 2 points here:

1) As all know, the "Bible" is a collection of books, it hasn't been written altogether in one strike. Therefore, it makes sense that some books may have a different styles than others. The Gospel is an "historical" text, which has the purpose of reporting the Words Jesus have spoken, in the closest way possible. I repeat it, the Words that the Son of God Himself had spoken. Reported. It's a big deal. Words pronunced in front of hundreds people, and in fact the style of the Gospel is that of a very precise reconstruction of what happened and what has been said.

Revelation, on the other hands, is a private "vision", with no other testimonies but the author, and written in a language clearly symbolic: beasts, lions, lambs, dragons, people eating books, women, stars falling, horses, etc. That's why I think it's self-evident from the text that the Gospel should be read literally, and it's self-evident from the text that Revelation is at least for the majority symbolic. 

2) There are also many things in OT that were far from being "perfect". I don't think that every word in the OT is perfect or had a realization or will have a realization. I don't think I really need to report the many barbaric verses in the OT to demonstrate this.

That's because in addition to God's inspiration, men were prone to add a lot of things. This effect, luckily, is not present in the Gospel, because as stated above the Gospel is not a private interpretation of an inspiration, but is the testimony of what the GREATEST who came from above said, and He said ONLY what the Father has instructed Him to say (John 12:49). Not one prophet could claim this, not any human prophet could claim "I said only what the Father has instructed me to say" (John 12:49). There is always human imperfection in any other writings.

On 12/24/2017 at 1:29 AM, Retrobyter said:

Therefore, it will not be the Omnipotent God, the Father of Yeshua`, who will "make them [human beings] flying in the air before sending them to a battlefield, to fight a tribal battle"; that would be YESHUA` HIMSELF who sends His messengers throughout the earth to gather His elect!

The fact that would be Jesus and not the Father to "fight", doesn't make the scene less "creepy" in my opinion. If you don't think Jesus is omnipotent too, at least consider that by being His will aligned to the Father, He can leverage the Father omnipotence  (Matthew 26:53 ). So He could get rid of all His enemies in a blink of an eye exactly as the Father, without needed to fighting. Remember the EFFICIENCY principle you introduced.

The reason why Jesus became flesh, is definitely not to "fight" tribal battles. 

There are few things that Jesus abstained in flesh. For instance, He was celibate, He certainly didn't need to "procreate". In the same way, I don't think He'll need to "fight", let alone with a human "army".

This to answer your quotes about Jesus became flesh.

On 12/24/2017 at 1:29 AM, Retrobyter said:

So, the Son of God, Yeshua` the Messiah of God, was made an "ant" like we are! And, being a body like we are bodies, the things we do TAKE TIME TO ACCOMPLISH! This is seen in Matthew 24, as well:

 

again, I don't agree. 

He blocked the wind, walked on water, broke the laws of physics by creating matter, resurrected people. He wasn't definitely an "ant" like we are.

 

And He could have done much greater things, but He didn't (Matthew 26:53), because He is not meant to be a warrior. Do you think that all the armies in the world would resist more than one instant against one who can break the laws of physics?  

On 12/24/2017 at 1:29 AM, Retrobyter said:

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (rescued; delivered). 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

All of this TAKES TIME TO ACCOMPLISH! Consider: With MANY false messiahs and many false prophets, they shall not all appear on the scene at once! They will come one at a time and usually after a population, once "burnt" by the deceit of such a false messiah and/or a false prophet, has had enough time that a new generation arises that is less suspicious and more gullible to accept another false messiah or a false prophet.

That is the Tribulation, of course the Tribulation takes time. Is going on since 2 millenniums. But the deliverance is istantaneous:

" As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."

"For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

"for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour"

Think about it, why Jesus specify that we don't know "the hour", if it's a millenary battle? And is it a millenary battle what an efficient God, or His son whose Will is aligned and therefore inherit the power, would do? No, that's why is never mentioned in the Gospel.

BTW:

I'm just answering you from another perspective, for the sake of conversation and reciprocal increasing in God's knowledge  And to give you more points on which add your considerations. BUT I think that all the themes we are discussing here are very hard, they aren't definitely the simplest part of the Gospel to understand. That's why eventually I still focus on what's clear beyond any doubt. Like the importance of prayer and spreading the Gospel, for preparing the way to the Lord again

Thanks for the very stimulating conversation, looking forward to your reply

Edited December 30, 2017 by listener24

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, listener24 said:

Hi @Retrobyter,

sorry for the late reply but you had a lot of great hints here. Let's dive into them:

awesome it's a pity that we are so few doing it  :/  

Shabbat shalom, listener24.

I would agree with you that it's a pity that more haven't joined us, but then, we might just be bemoaning a "loss" that really isn't there. Remember the words of Eliyahuw (Elijah or "Elias") recorded in Romans 11:

Romans 11:1-5 (KJV)

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 

From Eliyahuw's perspective, he was working alone. BUT, God corrected him and revealed that there were 7,000 who were on his side, even if he wasn't aware of them. That may be what we are seeing, too, because there are several on this forum that are reading but not posting. We may have many more partners in prayer than we can see. Only God knows who may have joined us. ("Wot," by the way, is the past tense of "to wit," meaning "to know." He was asking, "Don't you know what the Scripture says about Eliyahuw?")

1 hour ago, listener24 said:

I agree, and I completely agree that EFFICIENCY is one attribute to absolutely keep in mind. Keeping in mind efficiency should prevent us from inventing unnecessary steps that we think God will take for realizing His plan.

THIS is a problem. Yes, we shouldn't be "inventing unnecessary steps that we think God will take for realizing His plan," BUT (and this is a HUGE "BUT"), we should also NOT be inventing ways to CIRCUMVENT what the Scriptures say SHALL TAKE PLACE! You absolutely must NOT try to correct the Scriptures! That's the humanistic mistake of "hypercriticism," an attempt to CORRECT God's Word, rather than to just interpret what God has said! You may not like what is said, but that doesn't change the fact that it was said!

1 hour ago, listener24 said:

You are right here. I can see a "purpose" in this case: I think He does that for us, cause an "instantaneous" thing may be shocking, but that's just a hypothesis. 

I think you're right, though. I believe that, when we are resurrected, we will come back to life with the same mind and intelligence and emotion set that we had just before we died. It will take time to "catch us up to speed." There's no such thing as a promise of "instantaneous omniscience." We won't "know everything" when we come back to life. It may come as quite a shock, but I believe it will be a happy shock! A "pleasant surprise!" We will be waking up to His messengers and the sound of His "alarm clock," the blowing of the shofar.

1 hour ago, listener24 said:

I have 2 points here:

1) As all know, the "Bible" is a collection of books, it hasn't been written altogether in one strike. Therefore, it makes sense that some books may have different styles than others. The Gospel is an "historical" text, which has the purpose of reporting the Words Jesus have spoken, in the closest way possible. I repeat it, the Words that the Son of God Himself had spoken. Reported. It's a big deal. Words pronounced in front of hundreds of people, and in fact the style of the Gospel is that of a very precise reconstruction of what happened and what has been said.

This is good. The good news according to Luke in particular is a summary and a synopsis of what a NUMBER of witnesses reported to that point in history:

Luke 1:1-4 (KJV)

1Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus [God-lover], 4That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

So, yes, all of the writers of the accounts of Yeshua`s life not only agree in the finer points, but harmonize together to form a more perfect whole of what happened in His life. This is why that what seems to be contradictions between the accounts told by any two of the four recorded are not contradictions at all. They are just evidences of problems that the translators had in putting those accounts into English. It just means that one must dig deeper into the "original" language of Greek to find how the two accounts dovetail without any true contradictions. Even translators have certain presuppositions that slant the translation a direction that may not have been intended by the original authors or the controlling Author. While we have internal certification that the original manuscripts in the original languages were completely and perfectly inspired by God, we have NO such assurance that translations of those original manuscripts are so inspired. We can only know that an all-powerful God would PRESERVE His Word - His Message - within the contents of the translations.

1 hour ago, listener24 said:

Revelation, on the other hands, is a private "vision", with no other testimonies but the author, and written in a language clearly symbolic: beasts, lions, lambs, dragons, people eating books, women, stars falling, horses, etc. That's why I think it's self-evident from the text that the Gospel should be read literally, and it's self-evident from the text that Revelation is at least for the majority symbolic. 

This is not so good. See, Revelation, like all the prophetic books, is NOT of private interpretation! Kefa (Peter) said,

2 Peter 1:16-21 (KJV)

16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables [cleverly contrived stories], when we made known unto you the power [authority] and [second] coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses [in the vision] of his majesty. 17For he received from God the Father honour [high respect] and glory [brightness], when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory [the brightness of His presence in the cloud], This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven [the sky] we heard, when we were with him in the holy [singled-out] mount.

19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Verses 16 through 18 are a reference to the Transfiguration:

Matthew 16:24-17:13 (KJV)

24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul [air-breathing body]? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul [air-breathing body]? 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory [brightness] of his Father with his angels [messengers]; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. 10And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias [Eliyahuw or Elijah] must first come? 11And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

This is important to understand about inspiration! God CONTROLLED what went into His Word! It was GOD who was the Author of the Bible, not just the men who wrote it! While there were symbolic elements within the book of Revelation, that doesn't mean that the symbols weren't to be taken literally! Consider this: Yeshua` was called "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev. 13:8.) But, He was already called this in the Gospels:

John 1:29-34 (KJV)

29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God [Hebrew: haKeves Elohiym], which taketh away the sin of the world. 30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

And, Yeshua` was sacrificed as a lamb brought to the slaughter:

Isaiah 53:1-12 (KJV)

The Suffering Servant

(Matthew 26:57-68; Mark 14:53-65; John 18:19-24; 1 Peter 2:21-25)

1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

A Grave Assigned

(Matthew 27:57-61; Mark 15:42-47; Luke 23:50-56; John 19:38-42)

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Furthermore, the author of the book of Hebrews tells us...

Hebrews 10:1-18 (KJV)

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Therefore, Yeshua` was INDEED a Lamb of God sacrificed for our sin; His actual BODY was killed, just like the Passover lambs were slain close by Him that day! So, that's not a mere "symbol"; He was LITERALLY a Lamb sacrificed in the offering of His body! A "Keves" (Hebrew for "Lamb") is a YEARLING lamb; that is, it's a lamb that is one year old, just beginning its adulthood. Yeshua`, too, was just beginning His adulthood, being about 33 years old at the time of His death.

THIS is the kind of "symbolism" that is used in the book of Revelation. There's more truth and literalness in such "symbolism" than many understand.

1 hour ago, listener24 said:

2) There are also many things in OT that were far from being "perfect". I don't think that every word in the OT is perfect or had a realization or will have a realization. I don't think I really need to report the many barbaric verses in the OT to demonstrate this.

That's because in addition to God's inspiration, men were prone to add a lot of things. This effect, luckily, is not present in the Gospel, because as stated above the Gospel is not a private interpretation of an inspiration, but is the testimony of what the GREATEST who came from above said, and He said ONLY what the Father has instructed Him to say (John 12:49). Not one prophet could claim this, not any human prophet could claim "I said only what the Father has instructed me to say" (John 12:49). There is always human imperfection in any other writings.

Wow. This is just WRONG. Do you have any idea how humanistically hypercritical this is? This whole argument is just self-serving, humanistic philosophy! Imagine! Thinking that one knows better than God what will happen in the future! You said, "I don't think that every word in the OT (the TANAKH - that is, the Torah, the Navi'iym, and the Ketuviym - the Instruction, the Prophets, and the Writings) is perfect or had a realization or will have a realization." Well, you may THINK that, but you would be wrong. Read 2 Peter 1:16-21 (shown above) again. What "prophecy of the Scripture" did Kefa (Peter) have at that time?! It wasn't the NT writings! It was the TANAKH, the OT, which includes the Navi'iym - the PROPHETS! Please understand that I have a high respect for you as a person, and I believe that you are a brother, but this is serious. You have shown a VERY low opinion of God's prophets! Does God control what His prophets say or doesn't He? Look at the evidence:

Numbers 22:4-6; 23:1-24:19

4And Moab said unto the elders of Midian, Now shall this company lick up all that areround about us, as the ox licketh up the grass of the field. And Balak the son of Zippor was king of the Moabites at that time. 5He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there is a people come out from Egypt: behold, they cover the face of the earth, and they abide over against me: 6Come now therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people; for they are too mighty for me: peradventure I shall prevail, that we may smite them, and that I may drive them out of the land: for I wot that he whom thou blessest is blessed, and he whom thou cursest is cursed. ...

Balaam's First Oracle

1And Balaam said unto Balak, Build me here seven altars, and prepare me here seven oxen and seven rams. 2And Balak did as Balaam had spoken; and Balak and Balaam offered on every altar a bullock and a ram. 3And Balaam said unto Balak, Stand by thy burnt offering, and I will go: peradventure the LORD will come to meet me: and whatsoever he sheweth me I will tell thee. And he went to an high place.

4And God met Balaam: and he said unto him, I have prepared seven altars, and I have offered upon every altar a bullock and a ram. 5And the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth, and said, Return unto Balak, and thus thou shalt speak. 6And he returned unto him, and, lo, he stood by his burnt sacrifice, he, and all the princes of Moab.

7And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel.

8How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?

9For from the top of the rocks I see him, and from the hills I behold him: lo, the people shall dwell alone, and shall not be reckoned among the nations.

10Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!

11And Balak said unto Balaam, What hast thou done unto me? I took thee to curse mine enemies, and, behold, thou hast blessed them altogether. 12And he answered and said, Must I not take heed to speak that which the LORD hath put in my mouth?

Balaam's Second Oracle

13And Balak said unto him, Come, I pray thee, with me unto another place, from whence thou mayest see them: thou shalt see but the utmost part of them, and shalt not see them all: and curse me them from thence. 14And he brought him into the field of Zophim, to the top of Pisgah, and built seven altars, and offered a bullock and a ram on every altar. 15And he said unto Balak, Stand here by thy burnt offering, while I meet the LORD yonder. 16And the LORD met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and said, Go again unto Balak, and say thus. 17And when he came to him, behold, he stood by his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab with him. And Balak said unto him, What hath the LORD spoken?

18And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor:

19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

20Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.

21He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

22God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.

23Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!

24Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.

25And Balak said unto Balaam, Neither curse them at all, nor bless them at all. 26But Balaam answered and said unto Balak, Told not I thee, saying, All that the LORD speaketh, that I must do?

27And Balak said unto Balaam, Come, I pray thee, I will bring thee unto another place; peradventure it will please God that thou mayest curse me them from thence. 28And Balak brought Balaam unto the top of Peor, that looketh toward Jeshimon. 29And Balaam said unto Balak, Build me here seven altars, and prepare me here seven bullocks and seven rams. 30And Balak did as Balaam had said, and offered a bullock and a ram on every altar.

Balaam's Third Oracle

1And when Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he went not, as at other times, to seek for enchantments, but he set his face toward the wilderness. 2And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.

3And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:

4He hath said, which heard the words of God, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:

5How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel!

6As the valleys are they spread forth, as gardens by the river's side, as the trees of lign aloes which the LORD hath planted, and as cedar trees beside the waters.

7He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted.

8God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.

9He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee.

Balak Dismisses Balaam

10And Balak's anger was kindled against Balaam, and he smote his hands together: and Balak said unto Balaam, I called thee to curse mine enemies, and, behold, thou hast altogether blessed them these three times. 11Therefore now flee thou to thy place: I thought to promote thee unto great honour; but, lo, the LORD hath kept thee back from honour. 12And Balaam said unto Balak, Spake I not also to thy messengers which thou sentest unto me, saying, 13If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the commandment of the LORD, to do eithergood or bad of mine own mind; but what the LORD saith, that will I speak? 14And now, behold, I go unto my people: come therefore, and I will advertise thee what this people shall do to thy people in the latter days.

Balaam's Fourth Oracle

15And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:

16He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:

17I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

18And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.

19Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.

And, Balaam wasn't even a prophet of Israel! He was from Aram or Syria! It's important that you understand the SHEER POWER that God has over His prophets!

1 hour ago, listener24 said:

The fact that it would be Jesus and not the Father to "fight", doesn't make the scene less "creepy" in my opinion. If you don't think Jesus is omnipotent too, at least consider that by having His will aligned to the Father, He can leverage the Father's omnipotence  (Matthew 26:53 ). So He could get rid of all His enemies in a blink of an eye exactly as the Father, without needing to fight. Remember the EFFICIENCY principle you introduced.

The reason why Jesus became flesh, is definitely not to "fight" tribal battles. 

There are few things that Jesus abstained in flesh. For instance, He was celibate, He certainly didn't need to "procreate". In the same way, I don't think He'll need to "fight", let alone with a human "army".

This to answer your quotes about Jesus became flesh.

"Creepy?" That is your opinion. HOWEVER, God's Word is still true! Let GOD be true, and EVERY MAN a LIAR! (Romans 3:4.)

You put a high value on the Gospels; what do you say about Yeshua`s OWN WORDS in Luke 19?

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. 14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. 15And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. 17And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. 18And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. 19And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. 20And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. 22And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? 24And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. 25(And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) 26For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Does that sound like your "lovey-dovey" Jesus the Meek?

And, what do you do with 1 Corinthians 15?

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Consider this prophecy of David: (And, yes, David was one of God's prophets.)

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (Hebrew: YHWH), and against his anointed (Hebrew: maashiyach = "Messiah"), saying,
3"Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."
4He that sitteth in the heavens (in the skies) shall laugh: the Lord (Hebrew: Adonai) shall have them in derision (He shall mock them).
5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6"Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <<Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>>'
10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

There are nested quotes in this passage, and NO, not all of this passage was fulfilled in Acts 4:23-31. In fact, all that Peter was saying in Acts is that the kings of the earth and the rulers coming together to resist YHWH and His Messiah was just in the beginning stages.

1 hour ago, listener24 said:

again, I don't agree. 

He blocked the wind, walked on water, broke the laws of physics by creating matter, resurrected people. He wasn't definitely an "ant" like we are.

There's no doubt that Yeshua` was the "Word" spoken about in John 1; however, He was "made flesh and dwelt among us." He WAS the Word; He BECAME the man Yeshua`. That entails the fact that He is now limited in certain ways. For instance, He, being a body of flesh and bones, is now subject to the space-mass-time continuum. (Luke 24:36-43.) That is, He is now limited in His size; He is a man as we are. He is now limited in His movements, just as it took time for Him to rise into the sky until they could no longer see Him behind a cloud. (Acts 1:9-11.) He was limited in His knowledge, not knowing something that His Father knew. (Mark 13:32.) And, He shall ALWAYS be a man of flesh and bones! (Hebrews 13:8.)

1 hour ago, listener24 said:

And He could have done much greater things, but He didn't (Matthew 26:53), because He is not meant to be a warrior. Do you think that all the armies in the world would resist more than one instant against one who can break the laws of physics?  

That is the Tribulation, of course the Tribulation takes time. Is going on since 2 millenniums. But the deliverance is instantaneous:

" As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."

"For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

"for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour"

Think about it, why Jesus specify that we don't know "the hour", if it's a millenary battle? And is it a millenary battle what an efficient God, or His son whose Will is aligned and therefore inherit the power, would do? No, that's why is never mentioned in the Gospel.

BTW:

I'm just answering you from another perspective, for the sake of conversation and reciprocal increasing in God's knowledge  And to give you more points on which add your considerations. BUT I think that all the themes we are discussing here are very hard, they aren't definitely the simplest part of the Gospel to understand. That's why eventually I still focus on what's clear beyond any doubt. Like the importance of prayer and spreading the Gospel, for preparing the way to the Lord again

Thanks for the very stimulating conversation, looking forward to your reply

No, the deliverance will NOT be instantaneous! And, don't think for a moment that His deliverance to come "is never mentioned in the Gospel!" Besides the passages mentioned above in Luke 19 and Matthew 16-17, we have SEVERAL places that are just frankly misunderstood, like the parables about the Kingdom of heaven in Matthew 13 and Yeshua`s prophecy in Matthew 24-25. That's enough for tonight, but you really need to reconsider your conclusions.

[listener24]

On 12/30/2017 at 2:12 AM, Retrobyter said:

On 12/29/2017 at 7:30 PM, listener24 said:

Hi @Retrobyter,

sorry for the late reply but you had a lot of great hints here. Let's dive into them:

awesome it's a pity that we are so few doing it  :/  

Shabbat shalom, listener24.

I would agree with you that it's a pity that more haven't joined us, but then, we might just be bemoaning a "loss" that really isn't there. Remember the words of Eliyahuw (Elijah or "Elias") recorded in Romans 11:

Romans 11:1-5 (KJV)

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 

From Eliyahuw's perspective, he was working alone. BUT, God corrected him and revealed that there were 7,000 who were on his side, even if he wasn't aware of them. That may be what we are seeing, too, because there are several on this forum that are reading but not posting. We may have many more partners in prayer than we can see. Only God knows who may have joined us. ("Wot," by the way, is the past tense of "to wit," meaning "to know." He was asking, "Don't you know what the Scripture says about Eliyahuw?")

I hope so my brother.

We are discussing many things here, and this is nice and constructive. However, that prayer should be one of the top priority in the good novel of the Kingdom. It happened to me to meet some Christians who were already doing it, even if rarely. So I hope as you said there are many praying right now the Lord's prayer with the meaningful intention, instead of thousands of human-created prayers, or at least in addition to them.

I find sad some Christians not only not praying it, but are even opposing it with all their strength. Weirdly, they would never apply such opposition on thousands of human-invented prayers. Luckily, there are also wise pastors that are keeping this up. Above all, in my opinion, Jon Courson. And also Adrian Rogers, who has already completed his ministry in his mortal body.

"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

On 12/30/2017 at 2:12 AM, Retrobyter said:

THIS is a problem. Yes, we shouldn't be "inventing unnecessary steps that we think God will take for realizing His plan," BUT (and this is a HUGE "BUT"), we should also NOT be inventing ways to CIRCUMVENT what the Scriptures say SHALL TAKE PLACE! You absolutely must NOT try to correct the Scriptures! That's the humanistic mistake of "hypercriticism," an attempt to CORRECT God's Word, rather than to just interpret what God has said! You may not like what is said, but that doesn't change the fact that it was said!

Quote

Agree on this general principle. You are right.

On 12/30/2017 at 2:12 AM, Retrobyter said:

This is important to understand about inspiration! God CONTROLLED what went into His Word! It was GOD who was the Author of the Bible, not just the men who wrote it! While there were symbolic elements within the book of Revelation, that doesn't mean that the symbols weren't to be taken literally! Consider this: Yeshua` was called "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev. 13:8.) But, He was already called this in the Gospels:

Actually I know all the Scriptures is inspired. I know that every single Word Jesus said was directly the word of God.

But especially for OT or letters, saying that God controlled every single word isn't the same that saying that God directly "wrote" every SINGLE word? This seems to be what you are stating. Like as the prophets were in complete "trance" and being used from God who was choosing word by word, basically as a keyboard.

But if this is the case, can you explain me some verses that looks a bit "problematic"? Like:

 

“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again." 
Exodus 21: 7-8

"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die." Deuteronomy 21:18-21

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

Ye shall not round the corners of your heads. Leviticus 19:27

“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves." Numbers 31:17-18

"No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD." Deuteronomy 23:1

"Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.

18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,

19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,

20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;

21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God." Leviticus 21:17-24

 

We could go on and on, you know that, picking from OT or letters. (while I'm not able to provide you not even one controversial verse in the Gospel) Can you explain me how all this is decided "word by word" by the almighty? Why so much hatred against fetus, children, women, slaves, even ugly people (Leviticus 21:17-24) or people with just physical diseases?   

I'm sincerely looking for the Truth, and asking you this with sincere heart.

On 12/30/2017 at 2:12 AM, Retrobyter said:

No, the deliverance will NOT be instantaneous! And, don't think for a moment that His deliverance to come "is never mentioned in the Gospel!" Besides the passages mentioned above in Luke 19 and Matthew 16-17, we have SEVERAL places that are just frankly misunderstood, like the parables about the Kingdom of heaven in Matthew 13 and Yeshua`s prophecy in Matthew 24-25. That's enough for tonight, but you really need to reconsider your conclusions.

1

I've never said that Jesus delivarance is not mentioned in the Gospel! I'm only saying it looks istantaneous, if someone refers only to the Gospel on that. BUT I've no strong position on this, it's interesting to hear your point of view and there are already countless of people discussing this topic on here and elsewhere (none of them in agreement with one another, cause it's very hard to agree on what Revelation says) , and I don't want to add a voice on this point cause we'll see that Day

Btw, I'm thankful. While it's a pleasure discussing with you many topics, some easier some harder, you are keeping the focus like me on the Lord's prayer, that will have an effect regardless our position on the pre/post/anti/multi trib issue

 

It's more important to align our desires with the Lord and actively asking Him His deliverance, than trying to guess how that deliverance will happen. I trust God that it'll happen in the best way possible. But I also trust Him on the importance of asking for that to happen asap  Don't want to slow it down because of the hardness of my heart, as ancient believers did when they took 40 years to cross the desert.

Thy Kingdom come!

Thanks brother. Glory to God.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

"He BECAME the man Yeshua"

 

Get real son .... He did not become "Yeshua"

Your immense dialogue is false and self serving

Read your Bible [John 1:1-14]

Edited January 6, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Retrobyter]

On 1/5/2018 at 4:40 PM, listener24 said:

I hope so my brother.

We are discussing many things here, and this is nice and constructive. However, that prayer should be one of the top priority in the good novel of the Kingdom. It happened to me to meet some Christians who were already doing it, even if rarely. So I hope as you said there are many praying right now the Lord's prayer with the meaningful intention, instead of thousands of human-created prayers, or at least in addition to them.

I find sad some Christians not only not praying it, but are even opposing it with all their strength. Weirdly, they would never apply such opposition on thousands of human-invented prayers. Luckily, there are also wise pastors that are keeping this up. Above all, in my opinion, Jon Courson. And also Adrian Rogers, who has already passed over.

"But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

Shabbat shalom, listener24.

And, thank you, too, brother, for keeping this a civil conversation that is open to constructive discussion! I read in Scripture that we are not to judge another Man's servant. (Romans 14:4.) So, please forgive me if I sometimes sound judgmental; I try only to direct judgment at the ideas presented and NEVER at the person; however, sometimes I don't come across that way. If it ever sounds like I have, please point it out to me and I will apologize. 

And, thank you for keeping this thread alive! It IS very important, whether others recognize it or not.

Quote

Agree on this general principle. You are right.

Thank you, again.

Quote

Actually I know all the Scriptures is inspired. I know that every single Word Jesus said was directly the word of God.

But especially for OT or letters, saying that God controlled every single word isn't the same that saying that God directly "wrote" every SINGLE word? This seems to be what you are stating. Like as the prophets were in complete "trance" and being used from God who was choosing word by word, basically as a keyboard.

Not a "trance," per se, but they WERE instructed what to write, and sometimes they didn't understand what they were writing, ESPECIALLY when it involved the future!

Quote

But if this is the case, can you explain me some verses that looks a bit "problematic"? Like:

“This is what the Lord Almighty says... ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)

LOL! You do "go for the jugular" sometimes, don't you? Actually, though, this is a VERY interesting story that many good Christians miss. Look at the history of this people, the children of Amalek:

The Scriptures tell us that the children of Amalek lived in the Negev desert south of what would become Israel's Land. And, they ATTACKED ISRAEL WITHOUT WARNING AND WITHOUT BEING PROVOKED as they crossed the desert SOUTH of "their" land shortly after their exodus from Egypt!

Exodus 17:8-16 (KJV)

8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim. 9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand. 10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. 11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed. 12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. 13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven. 15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovah-nissi: 16 For he said, Because the LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.

Later, during the times of the Judges, we read this in Deborah's song:

Judges 5:12-14 (KJV)

12Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.
13Then he made him that remaineth have dominion over the nobles among the people: the LORD made me have dominion over the mighty.
14Out of Ephraim was there a root of them against Amalek; after thee, Benjamin, among thy people; out of Machir came down governors, and out of Zebulun they that handle the pen of the writer.

Remember reading Esther? Who was the "bad guy?" It was Haman. Here's what the Bible says about Haman's heritage:

Esther 8:5-6 (KJV)

5And said, If it please the king, and if I have found favour in his sight, and the thing seem right before the king, and I be pleasing in his eyes, let it be written to reverse the letters devised by Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, which he wrote to destroy the Jews which are in all the king's provinces: 6For how can I endure to see the evil that shall come unto my people? or how can I endure to see the destruction of my kindred?

Thus, Haman was a DESCENDANT of Agag! Now, here's the whole story of Sha`uwl's (Saul's) incomplete "obedience" (his DISOBEDIENCE):

1 Samuel 15:1-35 (KJV)

1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah. 5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley. 6 And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt. 8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. 9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.

10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying, 11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night. 12 And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal. 13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD. 14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear? 15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed. 16 Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on.

17 And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel? 18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed. 19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?

20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.

22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. 25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD. 26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. 27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. 28 And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. 30 Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the LORD thy God. 31 So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the LORD.

32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past. 33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

34 Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul. 35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

Now, guess how Agag's wife and children got away. What if she was originally a member of the Kenites that Sha`uwl sent away first? The problem was that the Amalekites were an evil people that God wanted out of Israel's way, but Sha`uwl's FAILURE to complete God's command caused the children of Israel HUNDREDS of years of needless pain and suffering. It was also serious enough to cost Sha`uwl the kingdom of Israel! God changed His mind about Sha`uwl being king and gave the kingdom to a "man after God's own heart," David.

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 "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again." 
Exodus 21: 7-8

The right version can make all the difference in the world. Here's the KJV:

Exodus 21:7-8 (KJV)

7And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. 8If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

She is a PERMANENT wife to him! The "master" can't just turn her out unless there is cause. She is actually a concubine, as Bilhah and Zilpah were to Ya`aqov (Jacob), but they were wives in all respects except in inheritance. Divorce was allowed, but was NEVER desired by God. According to Yeshua`, God ALLOWED them to put away their wives because of the FIERCENESS of their hearts! To protect the women from other ways some men may come up with to get rid of them, God allowed divorce instead, and the girls went back to their parents.

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"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die." Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Israel was a special people unto God; they were singled out as God's examples for other nations. In this particular case, this is talking about a son who could NOT be reasoned with. Even with warning, he would disrespect His parents and ALL authority, particularly that of GOD HIMSELF! Don't you think there would have been some hint that they were about to drag him to the elders (the seniors) of his city? He also had to fit the description of being a glutton - one who eats all the time - and a drunkard - one who drinks to excess! If he is spending all his time eating and drinking intoxicating drinks, he can't be working or working very hard. He was a BUM, sponging off his parents! Some have said, "He was eating all day and partying all night!" Whether that's true or not, it is quite obvious that he was NOT a "positively contributing member to his society!" And, God would have none of it, and made provision for a quick end to this nonsense through that society.

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“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

This case is similar to the last. A "sorceress" or a "witch" as it is worded in the KJV was one who tried to ascertain information and help from the spiritual world OTHER THAN from God Himself! The Hebrew word (transliterated) is "m-khasheefaah," containing the prefix "m-" meaning "from" and the feminine "-aah" ending suffix. God said,

Exodus 20:4-7 (KJV)

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7Thou shalt not take (Hebrew: tishaw' = "lift") the name (authority) of the LORD thy God in vain (Hebrew: lashaav' = "to-worthlessness"); for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

The "sorceress" or "witch" falls into this classification. They attempt to circumvent YHWH in favor of those whom they attempt to use to their own ends (since they can't do so with the Almighty God). To keep Israel pure, this command was made.

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Ye shall not round the corners of your heads. Leviticus 19:27

This is talking about the sidelocks of each son of Israel. They were not to cut the "sideburns" of their hair, but to let them grow out long. Reading on, they were also not supposed to cut the sides of their beards. They weren't supposed to shape them but let them grow out fully. It's just another means by which they would be recognized by sight, making them stand out as a special people - a select people of God.

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“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

Psalm 137 (KJV)

1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
4 How shall we sing the LORD'S song in a strange land?
5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.
7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.
8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

This passage is all about repayment and restitution for the sins of the Babylonians in taking perverse pleasure in the captivity of Yhudah (Judah). Neither Yhudah nor any of the children of Israel would be taking this action themselves. This was a PROPHECY about the conquerors of Babylon, the Persians! These were FAR more ruthless than were the Babylonians! It wasn't to be understood that this is a GOOD thing; it's just a prophecy of how much MORE pleasure they will take in destroying the infants of the Babylonians! It's not God's approval; it's just a statement of fact.

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“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

God is in full control over the circumstances of our lives. If we were in this time period, we also could have been slaves to a master. Being a slave in the Roman Empire was an OCCUPATION that was respected and had some "perks" that other occupations didn't have. But, even if our master had been cruel, we could say, like Yosef (Joseph) did,

Genesis 45:4-8 (KJV)

4And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. 5Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life. 6For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest. 7And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. 8So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

We may not see HOW God is going to make all things for good to those who love Him, but He'll do so anyway!

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"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves." Numbers 31:17-18

To understand this better, first, you need to use a good translation of God's Word. Second, you need to read the WHOLE context!

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. 3And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian. 4Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war. 5So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand. 7And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 9And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 12And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. 14And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. 19And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day. 20And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.

So, there was HISTORY behind this action like that of the Amalekites above. These Midianites were responsible for idolatry and adultery and fornication in Israel back when Balaam convinced them to trip up the children of Israel this way! Therefore, the ONLY ones who were to survive would be the female children who were virgins. All the others would have been contaminated by the "lifestyle" of this evil people. They were cursed by God for making the children of Israel cursed beforehand!

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"No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD." Deuteronomy 23:1

Don't just take a statement like this; find out WHY it's there!

Deuteronomy 23:1-6 (KJV)

1 He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. 2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD. 3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever: 4 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee. 5Nevertheless the LORD thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the LORD thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the LORD thy God loved thee. 6Thou shalt not seek their peace nor their prosperity all thy days for ever.

But, don't think for one moment that God doesn't love the individual who couldn't come into the congregation of YHWH! Why do you suppose that Daniel, Shadrach, Meshech, and Abed-nego were so blessed in the service of the king of Babylon and even to the service of the king of Persia? They were CASTRATED as captives allowed to serve in Nebuchadnezzar's court! They were Eunuchs! But, God loved them anyway and blessed them for their faithfulness in the land of their enemies.

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"Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.

18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,

19 Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,

20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;

21 No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God." Leviticus 21:17-24

These were the Cohaniym! The PRIESTS of God! They were to represent God to the common people! This is not a slur on them personally; it's to show how holy and righteous and perfect is our God YHWH!

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We could go on and on, you know that, picking from OT or letters. (while I'm not able to provide you not even one controversial verse in the Gospel) Can you explain me how all this is decided "word by word" by the almighty? Why so much hatred against fetus, children, women, slaves, even ugly people (Leviticus 21:17-24) or people with just physical diseases?   

I'm sincerely looking for the Truth, and asking you this with sincere heart.

I've never said that Jesus delivarance is not mentioned in the Gospel! I'm only saying it looks instantaneous, if someone refers only to the Gospel on that. BUT I've no strong position on this, it's interesting to hear your point of view and there are already countless of people discussing this topic on here and elsewhere (none of them in agreement with one another, cause it's very hard to agree on what Revelation says) , and I don't want to add a voice on this point cause we'll see that Day

Btw, I'm thankful. While it's a pleasure discussing with you many topics, some easier some harder, you are keeping the focus like me on the Lord's prayer, that will have an effect regardless our position on the pre/post/anti/multi trib issue

 

It's more important to align our desires with the Lord and actively asking Him His deliverance, than trying to guess how that deliverance will happen. I trust God that it'll happen in the best way possible. But I also trust Him on the importance of asking for that to happen asap  Don't want to slow it down because of the hardness of my heart, as ancient believers did when they took 40 years to cross the desert.

Thy Kingdom come!

Thanks brother. Glory to God.

 

I hope I've been able to answer some of your questions, but rest assured that God had a PURPOSE in everything that was written, and we may not understand it all, but we should rest in the knowledge that we serve a perfectly RIGHTEOUS God!

Let Thy Kingdom come soon, Father! And, let your Son return soon!

[listener24]

On 1/8/2018 at 12:23 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, listener24.

And, thank you, too, brother, for keeping this a civil conversation that is open to constructive discussion! I read in Scripture that we are not to judge another Man's servant. (Romans 14:4.) So, please forgive me if I sometimes sound judgmental; I try only to direct judgment at the ideas presented and NEVER at the person; however, sometimes I don't come across that way. If it ever sounds like I have, please point it out to me and I will apologize. 

And, thank you for keeping this thread alive! It IS very important, whether others recognize it or not.

Thank you too my friend for keeping this thread about the prayer for the Kingdom alive, and stressing its importance

I like your signature "in the Messiah's love", and your words are a testimony of the love for Him indeed.

You didn't sound judgmental because you have always answered point by point, recognizing what you was agreeing with and what you was disagreeing with and why.

Judgmental people on forums just classify a whole post as wrong, give few very reasons on why they do it, don't stay on point when they are proven wrong, never admit when they are proven wrong or when the others are just right, and last but not least attack personally by questioning one's salvation.

You haven't done anything of this sort. On the contrary you've been an example on how to discuss profitably.

On 1/8/2018 at 12:23 AM, Retrobyter said:

Not a "trance," per se, but they WERE instructed what to write, and sometimes they didn't understand what they were writing, ESPECIALLY when it involved the future!

I can imagine them not undertanding or having a very vague understanding on what they were writing in some cases That's the power of the Spirit.

On 1/8/2018 at 12:23 AM, Retrobyter said:

I hope I've been able to answer some of your questions, but rest assured that God had a PURPOSE in everything that was written, and we may not understand it all, but we should rest in the knowledge that we serve a perfectly RIGHTEOUS God!

Let Thy Kingdom come soon, Father! And, let your Son return soon!

It was incredibly interesting to read your explanations.

And you demonstrated a great understanding about the Bible.

Some of your explanations I've found very convincing, some others a bit less but I won't insist too much on them.

Btw, I had no doubt that we are serving a perfectly righteous God, I'm sure about that   I was just questioning some verses from OT as actually inspired, and you made me read them some of them in a way I didn't considered and I find convincing

I still think that the fullness of God's plan is in Jesus' Word, but it's definitely good to have a good understanding on some controversial verses in OT too.

Thanks, really, for the time dedicated to that insightful answer.

I'll close by copying and pasting the words at the end of your post, to remind the readers what's the thread about in the first place

On 1/8/2018 at 12:23 AM, Retrobyter said:

Let Thy Kingdom come soon, Father! And, let your Son return soon!

 

[Got?'s]

I just stumbled upon this recently, and I thought I would add it here!

In his Colossians, Session 3 study, Chuck Missler (I personally hold him in high esteem.) agrees with you that "we can hasten"! At approximately the 54:00 mark of the video he mentions this in a side note:

 

"Chuck Missler -- The Book of Colossians-- Session 3" on YT channel: MrCubars

 

Let's hasten and get THE party started :)!

 

 

 

 

[listener24]

10 hours ago, Got?'s said:

I just stumbled upon this recently, and I thought I would add it here!

In his Colossians, Session 3 study, Chuck Missler (I personally hold him in high esteem.) agrees with you that "we can hasten"! At approximately the 54:00 mark of the video he mentions this in a side note:

 

"Chuck Missler -- The Book of Colossians-- Session 3" on YT channel: MrCubars

WOAH! 

This is great brother!

Yet another reference! We have too many now! Let's recap, we have:

Adrian Rogers,

Jon Courson, 

Chuck Missler

just to quote 3 big names, but the list goes on and on. All of them talking about HASTENING the Day of the Lord through the Lord's prayer!

It is funny how many weird, worthless and useless things Christians like to discuss and waste time on, while they miss the occasion to be among those who will HASTEN His coming by UNDERSTANDING the Lord's prayer 

It is true what the Scripture says: 

"if you utter worthy, not worthless, words,
    you will be my spokesman."

(Jeremiah 15)

@Retrobyter , @MyLordsServant @mel85 @SerenSunflower @LovelyJoni @Abby-Joy you were right, those who have ears are hearing this post!

To quote @Got?'s :

10 hours ago, Got?'s said:

Let's hasten and get THE party started :)!

 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

16 minutes ago, listener24 said:

WOAH! 

This is great brother!

Yet another reference! We have too many now! Let's recap, we have:

Adrian Rogers,

Jon Courson, 

Chuck Missler

just to quote 3 big names, but the list goes on and on. All of them talking about HASTENING the Day of the Lord through the Lord's prayer!

It is funny how many weird, worthless and useless things Christians like to discuss and waste time on, while they miss the occasion to be among those who will HASTEN His coming by UNDERSTANDING the Lord's prayer 

It is true what the Scripture says: 

"if you utter worthy, not worthless, words,
    you will be my spokesman."

(Jeremiah 15)

@Retrobyter , @MyLordsServant @mel85 @SerenSunflower @LovelyJoni you were right, those who have ears are hearing this post!

To quote @Got?'s :

 

Shalom, listener24.

Truth! I like the words of a song I used to sing more often:

He's coming back; we don't know when.
The promise is, "I'll come again";
"For if I go away," said Jesus, "I will come back to you again!"

That's about all I can remember right now; I'll have to look it up in one of my hymnals. Nevertheless, it IS Yeshua`s promise! (Just not the "and take you to heaven" part.)

[PATMEN]

Hi Listener24, 

Thanks, for considering my Bible knowledge for your post on WCF. To tell the truth, I never went to the deepest parts of the forums since I am here! I spend mostly my time replying to welcoming message, prayers and praises,  etc...  I also spend my time doing my own articles on WFC. Right now, I am still recovering from a difficult article I have written about myself on WFC...  Here's the link, my brother... 

I am also brainstorming about creating a club on WFC... Nevertheless, after saying all of this... I will try all by best to react or quote to your post... soon! 

Your brother in Christ, Skyward Believer 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Skyward Believer
Sorry Brother... I have mistaken messaging with reply to this topic... :(