Do prayers have NO practical effect, since the Father knows the future?

[listener24]

Do we think that prayers have only a "spiritual" effect on us and our convictions, OR are they are sometimes also practically fulfilled by the Father?

Someone say that since the Father have decided everything from the beginning of the time, our prayers have no effect on the events that will happen. 

I don't think that this position is very Scriptural since seems like God always wanted us to cooperate to His Salvation Plan, but I'm curious to hear both sides on this opinion.

 

In defense to the idea that our prayer may have influence even though God has set things by knowing the future, I propose this simple reasoning.

Imagine 2 possible timelines of the future, one in which a person (let's call her Martha) prays, and another in which she doesn't pray. And let's imagine that the prayer is about getting the courage to testify the Lord in a hostile country.

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TIMELINE 1

Event A: Martha prays for courage

Event B: The Lord, by knowing Martha's prayer and by considering the prayer according to His will, gives her the courage

Event C: Martha goes in a hostile country to testify the Lord

 

TIMELINE 2

Event A-2: Martha doesn't pray for courage

Event B-2: The Lord doesn't force the gift of courage upon Martha, by respecting her free will

Event C-2: Martha stays at home

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Now, the Lord knows the future. He knows from the very beginning if Martha will choose event A or event A-2  (and let's say that she decides A), so he knows that He will send her courage. But this doesn't mean that Martha's prayer wasn't important, indeed it was fundamental!

Thus, even though God knows the future, our prayers may have a practical effect.

What do you think about it?

 

PS this topic came out a lot in this thread too, with a related question:

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by listener24

[Unfailing Presence]

I think the greatest answer to this question of Prayer and it's purpose comes from Jesus Himself .

When He prayed in agony in the garden that the cup might pass from Him did the Son of God know the answer ahead of time as well ?

Why then was he praying ?

                                                            " And there appeared an angel unto Him from heaven , strengthening Him . "   ( Luke 22 : 43 )

[Justin Adams]

Very interesting ideas. Complex to the nth degree based on billions of alternative possibilities all interacting with each other in some way. An equation of gigantic proportions multiplied by minute to minute variances. To attempt to describe the Lord Yahweh, one would first of all have to be on an even footing with Him. He does not share His glory, but gives us what we need and not what we want.

I often think of the Lord in the way Fischer played chess. Asked how many moves ahead he thought of, he said 'none'. 'I just make the best possible move each time'.

Let's look at this from a different perspective. From the end looking back is something we cannot do. To say God knows the future is a bit of a tilted idea really. He can view us from all perspectives. It is a constantly changing dynamic from God's perspective. He would not limit Himself thus, except for our benefit. He knows the end from the beginning. He is complete within Himself. He does not need us, but He desires to be loved by us and desires that we reciprocate His love.

To try to put the Lord in any kind of box is quite pointless really. He as a Father, is like when we were new-born. We knew absolutely nothing. Yet our Father was there to protect and guide.

He wants to include us in His Great Plan, so He hears our prayers and like the Father of the new-born, keeps us in the folds of His Love. Our prayer are important to the Lord, because He can effect any change He wishes based upon them. Just remember he does not need our prayers, but He desires them, and because He is a Loving Father, He will incorporate them into His plan. Yahweh is Sovereign.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, listener24 said:

Do we think that prayers have only a "spiritual" effect on us and our convictions, OR are they sometimes also practically fulfilled by the Father?

 

 

The purpose of prayer is to bring us into alignment with God's will. Prayer is not meant to be a means to strong arm God into doing what we want Him to do.   God is sovereign and we cannot change the future or convince God to do something he had not previously intended to do.

[SisterActs2]

When I was a little girl I didn't know my dad very well.  He was always out "riding fences", striving to keep us all fed, looked after and educated.  He has gone... I remember him as a loving, if not very demonstrative, father.  Now I am older and have met my "heavenly daddy" nearly 40 years ago.  Since being introduced to Him I have learned how to communicate with Him through prayer, praise, worship and learning to love ..... Him ..... and others.  He wants me to talk to Him.  He wants me to care about others.  I am getting to know Him more and more.  Now Jesus, my Saviour, is the same.  I look at Him and all I want is to be with Him.  That is for the same reason I know my Dad.  I love and trust Him, like a little girl.  It's because He takes my hand and leads me through every day; He is my helper, all three of Him.  The Holy Spirit teaches me things, like how to serve my Master better.  That's why I pray.  I get to know Him, more each day, by asking Him to help not just me and those close to me, but others.  He answers, and in the words of Dallas Holm, sometimes He says yes, sometimes He says no, and sometimes He says "wait a while".  I don't try to analyse it; I just do it because He tells me to, and I love it.

[listener24]

40 minutes ago, SisterActs2 said:

The Holy Spirit teaches me things, like how to serve my Master better.  That's why I pray.  I get to know Him, more each day, by asking Him to help not just me and those close to me, but others.  He answers, and in the words of Dallas Holm, sometimes He says yes, sometimes He says no, and sometimes He says "wait a while".  I don't try to analyse it; I just do it because He tells me to, and I love it.

Dear SisterActs2,

first off, what a beautiful testimony

secondly, as you pointed out there are many reasons for praying, and one is about communicating and relating us to God.
And only if we remain in Him, and His Word remains in us, we could desire something according to His will.

Thirdly, as you mention, there are prayers that are not just for us, but also for our brothers. For instance, the Lord's prayer is never about "I", always about "us".

Finally, let's recap that there are many aspects of prayer: communicating, aligning with God's will, etc. In this thread, the focus is on one particular aspect, but this doesn't mean that the other aspects are less important, it's just that for a matter of synthesis we cannot treat every aspect of the prayer in a single thread.

God bless
 

Edited November 28, 2017 by listener24

[4LdKHVCzRDj2]

2 hours ago, listener24 said:

Do prayers have NO practical effect, since the Father knows the future?

I believe many things can be changed, but without faith it will be impossible. Faith is one of the things that touches God's heart.

 

Remember the Lord Jesus asked us to pray, and keep praying.

Do you feel weak? Pray.

Do you feel sad? Use the Word to counteract, and pray.

Are you in a difficult situation? Pray, and believe it all will be fine.

 

Do you want to be healed? Pray, and believe you can be healed and God desires this for you.

The problem is that many people suffer and they believe God desires this suffering for them, while most of them could in fact be healed by believing otherwise.

"Then He touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith let it be to you.”" - Matthew 9:29

 

Pray, but pray asking what will please God. If you want something to do with it what God dislikes then I do not see a reason you should get it.

"You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures." - James 4:3

[ghtan]

2 hours ago, listener24 said:

Do we think that prayers have only a "spiritual" effect on us and our convictions, OR are they sometimes also practically fulfilled by the Father?

Someone say that since the Father have decided everything from the beginning of the time, our prayers have no effect on the events that will happen. 

 

I think common sense tells us prayers would make no practical difference were the future already fixed. Thankfully the bible does not say it is. Hence we can pray without such doubts at the back of our minds.

[MyLordsServant]

Firstly, I think the basis of the question is unstable. The common assumption between Christians, is that everyone understands how God's timeline functions. Parallel between the absolute spiritual and relative physical time. The common assumption of course is, that God knows the future. But that is only a partial evaluation relative to our comprehension. I believe that trying to conceive any idea of what God knows is futile. "For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom". We can definitely know that God is all-knowing, but in relation to past/future, God's timeline, time parallelity, and of these synonymatic concepts: our minds are absolutely limited to comprehend. That goes for all assumptions of God's knowledge and being. We can know the future based on revelation that God has provided. But we are not God and are not exclusive of history and future. If you decided in this lifetime that: since God already knows the future, all I have to do is accept Jesus as savior, sit back all day and do nothing. Then you will be cast into outer darkness, "Thou wicked and slothful servant", who has hid his talent and gave up responsibility. 

Therefore, we have to look at the question scripturally and try to answer as clearly as possible. While never assuming in the process, that our understanding of what God knows, is entirely clear or factual. 

We look at 1 John 5:14-15, "And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him"

"your Father knows what you need before you ask Him."

God wants us to pray, even though he knows what we want before we ask. The question is, what do we ask for and how do we ask it. If we pray and ask God to kill Satan, obviously that will not happen, because it's not "according to his will". So we must pray and ask within reason of his will, and "believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." Also, "ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith, without doubting". We must believe and ask in faith and we will receive.

Having this understanding in mind as well as our responsibility as Christians to pray. Assuming that God knows the future, and thus our prayers don't matter, is not a wise doctrine to follow. We are commanded in scripture to do certain things, so we must do them, and not question why or if there is a purpose.

If you question if there is a purpose to prayer, especially off the false assumption of what God knows, then you question existence itself. Why have life at all, if the future is already known. Why did Jesus have to die, if God knew who would accept him ahead of time? Why does only God know when the judgment will come and not even the Son of Man, nor angels? Why is personal knowledge of a detailed future hidden from us? 

Why, why, why? We don't know, only God knows. Our job is to fulfill our lives according to scripture. If we decide to sit back, then we are dissociating ourselves with Gods plan. These are philosophical and not scriptural questions. They are fine to ponder in, but not to conclude a foundation for doctrine.

Do prayers have no practical effect, since the Father knows the future? As a wise man once said, "that's the wrong question".

 

[missmuffet]

Question: "Why pray? What is the point of prayer when God knows the future and is already in control of everything? If we cannot change God's mind, why should we pray?"

Answer: For the Christian, praying is supposed to be like breathing, easier to do than to not do. We pray for a variety of reasons. For one thing, prayer is a form of serving God (Luke 2:36-38) and obeying Him. We pray because God commands us to pray (Philippians 4:6-7). Prayer is exemplified for us by Christ and the early church (Mark 1:35; Acts 1:14; 2:42; 3:1; 4:23-31; 6:4; 13:1-3). If Jesus thought it was worthwhile to pray, we should also. If He needed to pray to remain in the Father’s will, how much more do we need to pray?

Another reason to pray is that God intends prayer to be the means of obtaining His solutions in a number of situations. We pray in preparation for major decisions (Luke 6:12-13); to overcome demonic barriers (Matthew 17:14-21); to gather workers for the spiritual harvest (Luke 10:2); to gain strength to overcome temptation (Matthew 26:41); and to obtain the means of strengthening others spiritually (Ephesians 6:18-19).

We come to God with our specific requests, and we have God's promise that our prayers are not in vain, even if we do not receive specifically what we asked for (Matthew 6:6; Romans 8:26-27). He has promised that when we ask for things that are in accordance with His will, He will give us what we ask for (1 John 5:14-15). Sometimes He delays His answers according to His wisdom and for our benefit. In these situations, we are to be diligent and persistent in prayer (Matthew 7:7; Luke 18:1-8). Prayer should not be seen as our means of getting God to do our will on earth, but rather as a means of getting God's will done on earth. God’s wisdom far exceeds our own.

For situations in which we do not know God's will specifically, prayer is a means of discerning His will. If the Syrian woman with the demon-influenced daughter had not prayed to Christ, her daughter would not have been made whole (Mark 7:26-30). If the blind man outside Jericho had not called out to Christ, he would have remained blind (Luke 18:35-43). God has said that we often go without because we do not ask (James 4:2). In one sense, prayer is like sharing the gospel with people. We do not know who will respond to the message of the gospel until we share it. In the same way, we will never see the results of answered prayer unless we pray.

A lack of prayer demonstrates a lack of faith and a lack of trust in God’s Word. We pray to demonstrate our faith in God, that He will do as He has promised in His Word and bless our lives abundantly more than we could ask or hope for (Ephesians 3:20). Prayer is our primary means of seeing God work in others' lives. Because it is our means of “plugging into” God's power, it is our means of defeating Satan and his army that we are powerless to overcome by ourselves. Therefore, may God find us often before His throne, for we have a high priest in heaven who can identify with all that we go through (Hebrews 4:15-16). We have His promise that the fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much (James 5:16-18). May God glorify His name in our lives as we believe in Him enough to come to Him often in prayer.

https://www.gotquestions.org/why-pray.html