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Quasar93

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

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18 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

The last trumpet, as referred to by Paul, in 1 Cor.15:51-52, is reference to the first general resurrection, recorded in Rev.20:4. 

Where in the Old Testament is the last trumpet, the trumpet of God, that Paul is referring to?  Where do God's servants, the prophets, mention this specific trumpet?

If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?
Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel

To His servants the prophets.
A lion has roared! Who will not fear?
The Lord God has spoken! Who can but prophesy?  Amos 3:6-8

Surely something of such significance, of such magnitude was revealed to the prophets.  Where is it?  Or did Paul just make it up?

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Where in the Bible does it talk about the resurrection that accompanies the pre-trib rapture? I can find the second coming and resurrection in Rev:20.

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27 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

**So when you see...            "OH, I cannot see that because I have been raptured'"

Mark 13:22 For a false Christ and a false prophet shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.25 See, I have told you in advance.…

**So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’as described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then let those in Judea flee to the mountains.17 Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18 And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.

23 At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you in advance.

The ministry of Jesus in His first advent was EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, that He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6.  The Church DID NOT exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, [nor had the New Covenant been fulfilled], as recorded in Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, recorded in Acts 1:9 and in 2:1-3.

The passages of Scripture you quoted are all a part of the above stated facts and have nothing at all to do with the Church, or the coming rapture of it.  But John 14:2-3 and 28 does, together with Luke 21:36.

 

Quasar93  

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More Helegian gymnastics. Or perhaps mistakes... I re-quote verse 21 (above..)

 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

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35 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Where in the Old Testament is the last trumpet, the trumpet of God, that Paul is referring to?  Where do God's servants, the prophets, mention this specific trumpet?

If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?
Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel

To His servants the prophets.
A lion has roared! Who will not fear?
The Lord God has spoken! Who can but prophesy?  Amos 3:6-8

Surely something of such significance, of such magnitude was revealed to the prophets.  Where is it?  Or did Paul just make it up?

Why would anyone be seeking Scriptural teachings about the Church, in the OT, when it is addressed to Israel?  The teachings about the Church begin at Pentecost, together with Jesus fulfilling the prophesied New Covenant, opening the doors to the Gospel being taught to the Gentiles, by Paul?

 

Quasar93

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It is slowly winding down and getting worse. Not better. Many on the planet are in tribulation - read the news.

It is not pandemic YET. It is not worldwide - YET. Look at the plight of the Syrian children - the ones not bombed are dying of malnutrition. Look at all the babies fished out of the Med. They were undergoing tribulation. They died in great numbers. There is a constant flock of refugees fleeing some pogrom somewhere on our planet. Tribulation. Tribulation gets worse, but for the dead, it is all over.

We in the cushy west have not got a clue really - and when it hits our homelands and it gets like northern Africa, then we will understand what tribulation is about. And still the end is not come. Not YET.

It will get a whole lot worse! Look out for it.
 

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2 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

Why would anyone be seeking Scriptural teachings about the Church, in the OT, when it is addressed to Israel?  The teachings about the Church begin at Pentecost, together with Jesus fulfilling the prophesied New Covenant, opening the doors to the Gospel being taught to the Gentiles, by Paul?

I will argue no further.

I will just state that one cannot have a very good understanding of anything in isolation. To grasp the NT one must know the OT. When the disciples taught every Sabbath after our Lord ascended, they used the Torah, and slowly added letters and epistles that later became the NT.

God gave us this: HIS-STORY. It is complete and relevant - all of it. Yeshua, THE WORD made sure that the words we need are included and and not controversial or of any private interpretation. None are obsolete. No doctrine can stand against Yahweh and what His WORD reveals. The Truth of Yahweh is revealed by Holy Spirit thru the understanding of what He said and what He meant. It is not complicated; anyone may understand it clearly.

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50 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

Why would anyone be seeking Scriptural teachings about the Church, in the OT, when it is addressed to Israel?  The teachings about the Church begin at Pentecost, together with Jesus fulfilling the prophesied New Covenant, opening the doors to the Gospel being taught to the Gentiles, by Paul?

 

Quasar93

So, you're saying that Paul just made up this last trumpet business?  He must have had something in mind, even a prior trumpet, because he calls it the last.  Again, what was he referring to? 

Rev 20:4 says nothing about a trumpet.

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41 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

I will argue no further.

I will just state that one cannot have a very good understanding of anything in isolation. To grasp the NT one must know the OT. When the disciples taught every Sabbath after our Lord ascended, they used the Torah, and slowly added letters and epistles that later became the NT.

God gave us this: HIS-STORY. It is complete and relevant - all of it. Yeshua, THE WORD made sure that the words we need are included and and not controversial or of any private interpretation. None are obsolete. No doctrine can stand against Yahweh and what His WORD reveals. The Truth of Yahweh is revealed by Holy Spirit thru the understanding of what He said and what He meant. It is not complicated; anyone may understand it clearly.

Quite right.  You shouldn't argue any further, because your views contradict the teachings in the Bible, as documented in the following:

he Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar93

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10 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

So, you're saying that Paul just made up this last trumpet business?  He must have had something in mind, even a prior trumpet, because he calls it the last.  Again, what was he referring to? 

Rev 20:4 says nothing about a trumpet.

Attempting to put words in my mouth with your imagination won't fly.  Show me where I made any such statement or inferred it.

 

Quasar93

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