Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

[Diaste]

On 11/30/2017 at 9:34 PM, Quasar93 said:

Hello missmuffit,

 

Thanks for your input.  You are quite right.  it is relevant to keep in mind, the Church will DEPART in 2 Thess.2:3 [According to the original historic translation] and TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, in verse 7, BEFORE the man of lawlessness is revealed, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8, who triggers the seven year tribulation, recorded in Dan.9:27 and Rev.6:2.  The Church is in heaven for the marriage: the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, while the tribulation takes place on earth, in Rev.19:7-8.  Followed immediately after with the second coming of Jesus, with His Church: Riding on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14.  Solid Scriptural proof of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church.

 

God Bless.

 

Quasar93 

Incorrect. If you were to examine the wording of the entire passage of 2 Thess 2:1-7, and take a look at the original language, you would see the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect, is being restrained by the revealing of the beast, or AC. Your citation of 2 Thess 2:3 says nothing about being taken out of the way. 2 Thess 2:3 talks about apostasy and the revealing of the beast. I think you meant 2 Thess 2:7.

It's kinda foolish to equate the wife of Jesus in v 7 with the armies of Jesus in v 14. What you are saying is that Jesus got married and then led his wife into battle. That's a ridiculous notion. It's also illogical to assume only the elect are clothed in fine linen, clean and white. Angels are clothed this same way. Fine, clean, white linen is a symbol of purity and righteousness. The angels of the Lord are also pure and righteous. The distinction must be made on the basis of what the words say. In v 7 the fine linen, white and clean adorns the wife, not an army. In v 14 the fine linen, clean and white clothes the armies, not a wife.

What? You suppose this is impossible? There must be a great army of angels in heaven already as Jesus said, Matthew 26:53, "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

So there is at least 12 legions, maybe 60,000 angels in heaven based on just this verse.

However this is just a small contingent. Rev 5:11 says there are at least 10,000 times 10,000 angels. That's a hundred million. But this has to be added to, "and thousands of thousands". This means there is an innumerable host of angels already in heaven. 

Elisha saw a mountain full of chariots of fire. Joshua met with the captain of the host of the Lord. (Jesus) Proving there is a standing army in heaven commanded by the Lord, in place and long before the church age. It's this same army that will fight with Jesus after the Bride of Christ is rescued from the fires of persecution at the hands of the beast.

Solid refutation of the pretrib lie.

[Diaste]

On 11/30/2017 at 10:50 PM, missmuffet said:

The Church has departed before the seven year tribulation and the book of Revelation. I think those who go in the rapture of the Church will be blessed.

Such an elitist view. The members of one group will be blessed and all others not with that group will have to undergo persecution and death. How very christian.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

I will argue no further.

I will just state that one cannot have a very good understanding of anything in isolation. To grasp the NT one must know the OT. When the disciples taught every Sabbath after our Lord ascended, they used the Torah, and slowly added letters and epistles that later became the NT.

God gave us this: HIS-STORY. It is complete and relevant - all of it. Yeshua, THE WORD made sure that the words we need are included and and not controversial or of any private interpretation. None are obsolete. No doctrine can stand against Yahweh and what His WORD reveals. The Truth of Yahweh is revealed by Holy Spirit thru the understanding of what He said and what He meant. It is not complicated; anyone may understand it clearly.

Well said!

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Why would anyone be seeking Scriptural teachings about the Church, in the OT, when it is addressed to Israel?  The teachings about the Church begin at Pentecost, together with Jesus fulfilling the prophesied New Covenant, opening the doors to the Gospel being taught to the Gentiles, by Paul?

 

Quasar93

Did you know Abraham was born again and holy long before there was an Israel? And Noah. And Elijah, Enoch, etc. So there is a more fundamental truth to righteousness and salvation than Jewry. Not that you'll understand that.

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Quite right.  You shouldn't argue any further, because your views contradict the teachings in the Bible, as documented in the following:

he Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar93

Running with the wolves? Why don't you put down the propaganda and examine it for yourself? Parroting views just proves the programming was successful.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Exactly; this is why context matters. Otherwise, we begin to interpret everything according to our own perspective and start committing eisegesis.

Really? That's rich coming from one who ignores context. What about this context?

Galatians 3

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Whoa! Bet that slams into the wall of cognitive dissonance. You want there to be a difference between Jew and Gentile to protect your island. 

"And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed"

What? I though the Jews were the seed of Abraham? Does this mean believers are the seed of Abraham? Oh no!

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

There is a "church" age .... it began at Pentecost .... here is where it will suddenly end [Romans 11:25]

Then will come the tribulation period 

In effect you are saying that anyone who was counted as righteous by God before the church was established is not part of the church. I'm pretty sure Moses, Enoch, Elijah, Abraham, Issac and a host of others would disagree.

[Guest shiloh357]

11 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Did you know Abraham was born again and holy long before there was an Israel? And Noah. And Elijah, Enoch, etc. So there is a more fundamental truth to righteousness and salvation than Jewry. Not that you'll understand that.

Actually, there was no Church in OT times.  Abraham was justified by faith, but the OT are not part of the Church.   There are no prophecies about the Church in the OT.   The OT prophets never mention the church age.  They prophesy about the first coming of Jesus, the Second coming, the millennium and the New Heavens and New Earth.  But the church age is missing.  It isn't known until it was revealed by the apostles through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

 

44 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Such an elitist view. The members of one group will be blessed and all others not with that group will have to undergo persecution and death. How very christian.

Those who are obedient will be, ultimately, blessed and those who are not will suffer for that decision.  That is the biblical pattern, like it or not.   Noah and his family were blessed while everyone else died.  Look at the first born of Egypt that perished at the hand of the death angel while the first born of Israel were spared.

It's not about there being a elite group.  It is about there being some who are obedient and believe the gospel and others who reject the Gospel and will be left here to go through the tribulation after the church age has ended.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

In effect you are saying that anyone who was counted as righteous by God before the church was established is not part of the church. I'm pretty sure Moses, Enoch, Elijah, Abraham, Issac and a host of others would disagree.

He  is correct.  Teh church age begins in Acts 2 and ends when the Church is taken out of the world.   OT saints and Tribulation saints are not part of the Church.   And no, the OT saints will not disagree.  They are part of the redeemed community, but not part of the Church.

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I totally believe in the pre- tribulation Rapture and it's seen in many places in scripture.

But here's one thing that's never been explained to my satisfaction.

Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. [emphasis mine]

Taken in context to whom Jesus is talking to, I'm wondering what this verse is telling us?

Anyone? Anyone?

No, you have not seen it anywhere. You are just choosing to believe less than clever rhetoric.  Jesus is talking to everyone that is called by His name. There is no Jew or Gentile anymore, all are one in Christ.

Jesus is speaking directly to you.