Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

[Diaste]

2 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

He  is correct.  Teh church age begins in Acts 2 and ends when the Church is taken out of the world.   OT saints and Tribulation saints are not part of the Church.   And no, the OT saints will not disagree.  They are part of the redeemed community, but not part of the Church.

And you have explicit, specific, scriptural passages identifying and defining this 'redeemed community'?

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

You labor under false pretenses.  The New Covenant was prophecied in Jer.31:31-34 and was not fulfilled until so done by Jesus, as recorded in Lk.22:20, through His shed blood and death on the cross.  Not before.  Pentecost took pace in the NT, recorded in Acrs 2:1-3.  It was the foundation of the Church.  None of which took place anywhere in the OT.  I teach from the Bible, not dispensationalism.  As for the New Covenant theology, the Bible DOES NOT teach any such thing as the Church being Israel.  FYI, I am a qualified Bible teacher, let me see the Scriptures you base your claims on.

 

Quasar93

Have a great life.

[Diaste]

6 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Actually, there was no Church in OT times.  Abraham was justified by faith, Hate to break it to you but we are all justified by faith. It has always been that way. but the OT are not part of the Church.   There are no prophecies about the Church in the OT.   The OT prophets never mention the church age.  They prophesy about the first coming of Jesus, the Second coming, the millennium and the New Heavens and New Earth. I'm actually laughing.   But the church age is missing.  It isn't known until it was revealed by the apostles through the agency of the Holy Spirit. Is that so? Well please tell me where I can find any apostle mention the church age. 

 

Those who are obedient will be, ultimately, blessed and those who are not will suffer for that decision.  That is the biblical pattern, like it or not.   Noah and his family were blessed while everyone else died.  Look at the first born of Egypt that perished at the hand of the death angel while the first born of Israel were spared.

It's not about there being a elite group.  It is about there being some who are obedient and believe the gospel and others who reject the Gospel and will be left here to go through the tribulation after the church age has ended.

It's interesting you bring up Noah. The ark was a hundred years in the building. What manner of opposition do you suppose he and his family endured? Then the wrath of God fell on the same day Noah entered into the ark. This is the exact picture of the coming of Jesus. Only when the day comes for the wrath of God to commence will the righteous be taken. As Jesus said, "As in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of man be." And that's not just the state of mankind.

Actually it is about elitism. Pretrib ignores truths such as this:

1 Peter 4, "For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us..." This is NT. Peter. He walked with Jesus. Peter says judgment BEGINS with God's household, US! You can't be judged if you ain't here. So if God's house is gone then Peter is a liar. Or pretrib is the lie. I'm gonna go with Pretrib.

Pretrib, and you, elevate yourself to a status above those that will receive judgement, which is in fact removing your group from the house of God, as you say no judgment will fall on you, and Peter says judgement begins with us, believers. 

 

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Explain with scripture please.

Reality will explain in a way that words just can't.

[Justin Adams]

...somebody betta write God a letter pretty quick, explaining that the church age is leaving soon... Hmm, betta CC Moses and Enoch and a whole bunch of others too... gonna be a very long letter. Oh well! Betta hurry, as the imminent something is gonna imminently happen...

[Guest shiloh357]

11 minutes ago, Diaste said:

 Hate to break it to you but we are all justified by faith. It has always been that way.

Did I say otherwise?

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 I'm actually laughing. 

In the absence of anything to say

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Is that so? Well please tell me where I can find any apostle mention the church age. 

Paul refers the mystery of the Church, this current dispensation, where Jews and Gentiles are one in Christ as a mystery. 

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
(Eph 3:2-11)

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It's interesting you bring up Noah. The ark was a hundred years in the building. What manner of opposition do you suppose he and his family endured? Then the wrath of God fell on the same day Noah entered into the ark. This is the exact picture of the coming of Jesus. Only when the day comes for the wrath of God to commence will the righteous be taken. As Jesus said, "As in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of man be." And that's not just the state of mankind.

You're missing the point I was making.   Noah and his family were saved from death because they were obedient and the rest of the world was not.  I realize the typological aspect of the story.   I don't need that from you, believe me.   My point is that there is a pattern of some being saved out of Tribulation and death, where others are not. I also pointed to ancient Israel and the death angel in Exodus as anther example of some being saved and others not.

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Actually it is about elitism. Pretrib ignores truths such as this:

1 Peter 4, "For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us..." This is NT. Peter. He walked with Jesus. Peter says judgment BEGINS with God's household, US! You can't be judged if you ain't here. So if God's house is gone then Peter is a liar. Or pretrib is the lie. I'm gonna go with Pretrib.

Pretrib, and you, elevate yourself to a status above those that will receive judgement, which is in fact removing your group from the house of God, as you say no judgment will fall on you, and Peter says judgement begins with us, believers. 

 

Elitism is a value you assign in the absence of an credible and cogent, well-thought-out argument.

Peter was not talking about the Tribulation judgment.  He is talking about the purification of the Church.  The judgment that Peter refers to is the purging discipline of God upon His children whom he loves.   You are completely misapplying that Scripture to force it to address an issue it isn't trying to address.

Pretrib is not about elevating oneself.  That is just ignorant nonsense.  I am not being removed from God's judgment throug the rapture.  Jesus bore God's wrath on my behalf.  He already took upon Himself the punishment and judgement I deserved.

So I have already been to the judge.  I settled that account.  I have already been judged and declared legally righteous   I am in right-standing with God through Jesus Christ.    The judgment that is coming on the world that has rejected His grace is not coming upon me. 

You almost seem like you WANT to go through the Tribulation.  That is rather morbid. 

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And you have explicit, specific, scriptural passages identifying and defining this 'redeemed community'?

Everyone who is justified by faith, before or after the cross is part of the redeemed community.   But the Church is a specific group in the redeemed community.   That doesn't make anyone less, or more saved, but the Church is a specific designation within the redeemed community.   Not a higher designation, but a separate one. 

[Unfailing Presence]

21 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

**So when you see...            "OH, I cannot see that because I have been raptured'"

.…

**So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’as described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then let those in Judea flee .

So for the Christian where is this   " Holy Place "  ? 

As child of God through Christ Jesus why have I not been made aware of this " holy place "  and  the need for this  " holy place " in addition to my salvation ? 

And if a " holy place " is not part of what Jesus Christ has done for me in salvation how could it ever be an additional modification of salvation to another ?

I thought :         "  It is finished "    ( John  19 : 30 ) 

 

What could possibly be the additional blessings of a " holy place " to a Christian  above and beyond those eternal blessings of life bestowed by  the living holy one of God ?

 

 

[Guest shiloh357]

22 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

**So when you see...            "OH, I cannot see that because I have been raptured'"

Mark 13:22 For a false Christ and a false prophet shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.25 See, I have told you in advance.…

**So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’as described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16 then let those in Judea flee to the mountains.17 Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18 And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.

23 At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you in advance.

Matthew 24 is speaking of the Jews in Israel.   That passage doesn't apply to the Church.  Everything about that passage would only be relevant to Jews living in Israel.   The "reader" are those in the Tribulation period who will have access to Bibles that remain on the earth for them to read after the Church has bee taken.  That is confirmed by the prophet Daniel.

Edited December 2, 2017 by shiloh357

[Justin Adams]

Frank H. White.

Paul either possessed or had access to a copy of the Gospel by Matthew; and that when he wrote, "This we say unto you by the word of the Lord", etc., 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, he meant, "the word of the Lord" as contained in Matthew 24:29-31. One has only to compare Paul's words to the Corinthians on the subject of the Lord's Supper, 1 Corinthians 11:23-25, with the Lord's own words about it, Matthew 26:26-28, to see that the Apostle could easily have obtained his information concerning the Lord's Supper from his copy of Matthew's Gospel, which contains this "word of the Lord" also. Paul's personal acquaintance with "the twelve" would furnish him the few extra details contained in his account which are not recorded by Matthew.  Or a man as intelligent as Paul was, and as well acquainted with the Jewish feasts, including the Passover, which so graphically typifies the death of "The Lamb of God" for the sins and life of the world, could easily have deduced those extra trifling details from Matthew's record of the last supper.  Thus Paul could just as well say in this case, "I have received of the Lord", etc., as in the other case, "This we say unto you by the word of the Lord", etc., for in each case, what he mentioned was contained in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ as found in Matthew's Gospel.  If the Lord had first given Matthew's Gospel, in which the Lord's Supper is included, to the disciples as Jews--i.e., as representing not the Church but the Jewish Remnant of the Tribulation--and then had revealed that supper to Paul as "Church Truth", He would have been bestowing upon the Church, apparently as an afterthought, something which He had stolen from the Jewish Remnant; whose possession it was once it was given to them.  I say "stolen from the Jewish Remnant" because by making the Lord's Supper "Church Truth", that is to say, a Christian ordinance, necessarily the Jewish Remnant was deprived of it; for, as I explain and stress in other parts of these volumes, there is absolutely no evidence that the Jewish Remnant will become believers in the Lord Jesus Christ until He shall have revealed Himself to their nation as such at the end of the Tribulation: and so a Christian ordinance could not be made use of by them during the Tribulation, since, at the best, until the Lord shall return, they will be only a company of pious not Christian Jews.  Although only extreme Pre-Tribulation Rapturists hold this absurd idea, yet it is a result of that doctrine, and so the tree must be adjudged evil because it bears such evil fruit.  The only purpose in endeavoring to make all or the greater part of Matthew 24 "Jewish Remnant Teaching" is TO GET RID OF VERSES 29 TO 31, BECAUSE IF ACCEPTED AS "CHURCH TRUTH" THESE THREE VERSES WOULD INSTANTLY CONTRADICT.

Let us keep in mind that this is our Lord's answer to the questions about His coming, the full-end of the age, and the destruction of Jerusalem, which in their (the disciples') minds was connected with His coming.
The Olivet Talk, in Matthew's account of it, may be easily grouped under three general headings, after the introductory bit out of which it all grew.
The first of these may be called the tribulation group of paragraphs.  It runs from verses four to forty-four of chapter twenty-four.  In it our Lord speaks of a time of great distress or tribulation coming to the whole earth.  This is the uppermost thought through the whole section.  This is apt to come as a distinct surprise to one who is listening for something about His coming again.  Yet this is the first thing He speaks of in answering the questions about when He will come.
There are five distinct paragraphs in this tribulation section.
The first paragraph runs through verses four to eight.  It cautions against evil men coming under the pretence of being Christ, and gives the general characteristics of the tribulation in its beginnings as wars, rumors of wars, famines, and earthquakes.
The second paragraph runs through verses nine to fourteen inclusive.  It tells of great tribulation coming to the Lord's followers.  It helps here to remember who these disciples are representatively,--not the Jewish nation but the Church.  The Church will suffer during this awful time of persecution, and some will be killed.  As a result of the terrible persecution there will be a great testing and sifting.  Many will "stumble", that is, give up their faith; false religious teachers will add to the confusion; and the love of many true Christians will grow cold.  These are the general characteristics of the time for the Christian people.  Then our Lord gives a clue to determining when the end of all will come,--it will not be until the Gospel of the Kingdom has been preached in all the world as a testimony unto all nations.
The third paragraph runs through verses fifteen to twenty-eight.  The gives the opening event of this tribulation time, by which its beginning may be surely recognized.  Jesus makes a quotation from Daniel, referring to something or someone called "the abomination of desolation"; when this is seen standing in the holy place of the temple in Jerusalem, that will indicate the beginning of this great tribulation.  And our Lord significantly adds "let him that reads understand".  This event will be followed by a time of awful happenings.  The tribulation will be such as has never been known, and never will be again.  It will be a time of such terrible experience for Christ's own followers that for their sake's it is mercifully shortened....
The fourth paragraph is a brief one but brings us to the central event we are thinking of.  It runs through verses twenty-nine to thirty-one, and fixes the closing event of the tribulation time.  There will be disturbances in the heavenly bodies, the sun, moon, and stars, and "the powers of the heavens (i.e., powers of physical attraction and cohesion) shall be shaken".  Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  His appearance will cause mourning among all the tribes of the earth.  The word translated "mourning" has in it the thought of grief.  And that suggests a sorrow and penitence among men when they see and recognize the Lord Jesus in His glory.  Then he sends His angels with the great sound of a trumpet, and the redeemed will be caught up into His presence from every corner of the earth.

[Unfailing Presence]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

  And that suggests a sorrow and penitence among men when they see and recognize the Lord Jesus in His glory.  Then he sends His angels with the great sound of a trumpet, and the redeemed will be caught up into His presence from every corner of the earth.

If  all Christians present on earth at the tribulation's beginning have either been forced to take the mark of the beast , or been slaughtered for not doing so , that would make for quite an anti-climactic rapture  with plenty of empty seats available .

This is backwards thinking .

Wherever you place the rapture it should have to include the majority of Christians on earth being raptured , not a minuscule , leftover ,  smattering that somehow avoided taking 

the mark of the beast or being slaughtered for refusing .

                                                   " Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing ? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father .

                                                      But the very hairs of your head are all numbered . "    (  Matthew 10 - 29 : 30 )

Edited December 2, 2017 by Unfailing Presence