Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

[missmuffet]

6 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

What event marks the beginning of tribulation & what is " MOB "   ?

MOB is the mark of the beast

[Quasar93]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Incorrect. If you were to examine the wording of the entire passage of 2 Thess 2:1-7, and take a look at the original language, you would see the return of Jesus and the gathering of the elect, is being restrained by the revealing of the beast, or AC. Your citation of 2 Thess 2:3 says nothing about being taken out of the way. 2 Thess 2:3 talks about apostasy and the revealing of the beast. I think you meant 2 Thess 2:7.

It's kinda foolish to equate the wife of Jesus in v 7 with the armies of Jesus in v 14. What you are saying is that Jesus got married and then led his wife into battle. That's a ridiculous notion. It's also illogical to assume only the elect are clothed in fine linen, clean and white. Angels are clothed this same way. Fine, clean, white linen is a symbol of purity and righteousness. The angels of the Lord are also pure and righteous. The distinction must be made on the basis of what the words say. In v 7 the fine linen, white and clean adorns the wife, not an army. In v 14 the fine linen, clean and white clothes the armies, not a wife.

What? You suppose this is impossible? There must be a great army of angels in heaven already as Jesus said, Matthew 26:53, "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

So there is at least 12 legions, maybe 60,000 angels in heaven based on just this verse.

However this is just a small contingent. Rev 5:11 says there are at least 10,000 times 10,000 angels. That's a hundred million. But this has to be added to, "and thousands of thousands". This means there is an innumerable host of angels already in heaven. 

Elisha saw a mountain full of chariots of fire. Joshua met with the captain of the host of the Lord. (Jesus) Proving there is a standing army in heaven commanded by the Lord, in place and long before the church age. It's this same army that will fight with Jesus after the Bride of Christ is rescued from the fires of persecution at the hands of the beast.

Solid refutation of the pretrib lie.

he OP and the following refute your above meaningless opinion without a shred of Scriptural support to verify it with.  Either field a Scripturally based argument proving anything in the Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is false, or it is clearly those of your that are.  Take special notice of the translation history of 2 Thess.2:3

 

Yes, Jesus will return in His second coming WITH HIS CHURCH. in Rev.19:14, IN HIS ARMIES FROM HEAVEN.  Whether you accept it or not, Jesus will then lead His millions of angels together with His Church/us, in our glorified indestructable bodies, into the battle of Armageddon, as recorded in Rev.19:11-21, with its obnious resuts and the ending of the tribulation.

 

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church Beginning with Mt.24:31:
[/B] And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Lk.21:36:
"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thes.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thes.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In vs 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!


The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf

 

 

The pre-trib rapture of the Church views posted above fully endorsed by the following:

 

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

 

 

Quasar93

[Quasar93]

38 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

94 years old? That is great

Still kickin'!  Just like a live mule, as the saying goes!  LOL

 

Quasar93

[missmuffet]

44 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

Still kickin'!  Just like a live mule, as the saying goes!  LOL

 

Quasar93

Did you fight the Germans or the Japanese in WW2?

[ENOCH2010]

Quasar93 Where are the millions of believers that have past away in the last 2000 or so years?

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 11/30/2017 at 8:06 PM, missmuffet said:

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Still at offering interpretations, and representing them as though they are Bible teachings I see!

You say:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

The Bible says:

1 Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 

I would agree with you, that 1 Thess 4:17 indicates that living believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and will remain with Him forever. I also would agree that that his armies will return with Him. What you failed to establish, and why so many rejects this sort or manipulation, is that those verse to not say anything about anything happening before the tribulation, nor do they say there is an interval or years between said rapture and the Lord's return. That is why what you are doing, is an interpretation, and not Biblically established.

Jesus was critical of the Pharisees when they did this, quoting Isaiah who said: 

TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN. 

I could go through the whole list with that same sort of observations of inappropriately applied scripture, but I think I will just move on.

[Omegaman 3.0]

23 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

But here's one thing that's never been explained to my satisfaction.

Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. [emphasis mine]

Taken in context to whom Jesus is talking to, I'm wondering what this verse is telling us?

Anyone? Anyone?

There is a lot of wiggle room in that verse, that makes it hard to pin down. For example, that verse in the NASB, a very literal tranlslation says:

36“But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

That sounds a bit like the situation painted in Matt 24:

16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17“Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18“Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20“But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 

Sound physically challenging, does it not, to flee Jerusalem, and  go  to the mountains Eusebius tells us, that when Jerusalem was about to be attacked by the Romans, that the Christians remembered what Jesus has instructed, so they fled and went to Pella, a city across the Jordan River. That trip would indeed take stamina, especially if they followed Jesus intruction, to not even go back to yoru house to get anything, just RUN!

That part in the verse that talks about being counted worthy is, in the Greek:

 δεόμενοι ἵνα κατισχύσητεἐκφυγεῖν ταῦτα

 κατισχύσητεἐκφυγεῖν is from

katischuó: to overpower

Original Word: κατισχύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katischuó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-is-khoo'-o)
Short Definition: I prevail against, overpower, am able
Definition: I prevail against, overpower, get the upper hand.

while the to escape part is

 ἵνα κατισχύσητε ἐκφυγεῖν ταῦτα πάντα

ekpheugó: to flee away

Original Word: ἐκφεύγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekpheugó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-fyoo'-go)
Short Definition: I flee out, away, I escape
Definition: I flee out, away, escape; with an acc: I escape something

So, it is just as legitimate to "pray that you have the strength to run away", but only if you want to take things literally in the original language.'

Some will, no doubt, really object to this possibility, but I did not write the NASB translation, not the Greek, not did I invent what Strong's concordance said about the Greek words. I am not to blame, don't shoot the messenger for trying to apply the expertise of others trying to find a little clarity in murky waters.

 

[Mary8]

On 12/1/2017 at 8:23 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I totally believe in the pre- tribulation Rapture and it's seen in many places in scripture.

But here's one thing that's never been explained to my satisfaction.

Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. [emphasis mine]

Taken in context to whom Jesus is talking to, I'm wondering what this verse is telling us?

Anyone? Anyone?

I felt that it sounded like it is to Israel at the Second Coming.   I googled it, and think I found some excellent points.  

The person brings out that the phrase "Son of Man" is used only in relation to Israel, not the Church.

Also, that the people spoken to are told to 'watch and pray always... that they may  be accounted worthy to escape all these things... and to stand before the Son of Man,' and then says the church is told instead   to 'watch and be sober,' and 'have the hope of salvation.'   They said that the ones being spoken to are 'escaping all these things' in order that they might stand before the Lord in their physical bodies when the Lord comes.   (So I think that makes excellent points that this scripture is for when the Lord comes to the earth at the end of the tribulation.  They are to pray that they make it through it.)   They add that Christians are in Christ by faith in Christ's finished work alone.    I thought he or she did an excellent job.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Mary8
add a phrase

[Mary8]

8 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

FYI, I am a 94 year old WWII Vet, with 80 years of Bible study, together with earned qualifications to teach the Bible.  Your inference as to "my ignorance of Christ's full import in the fulfillment of the law and the salvation of mankind," Is a full load of meaningless opinion.  And where, may I ask, did you earn your qualifications to teach the Bible?

 

Quasar93  

I'm glad you spoke up.   And thank you for your service.   We appreciated you all then, and still do.  

Edited December 3, 2017 by Mary8

[Quasar93]

7 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Did you fight the Germans or the Japanese in WW2?

 

7 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Did you fight the Germans or the Japanese in WW2?

I spent two years in the Pacific/Asiatic theater with the USAAF Air Corp in our fight against the Japanese, all over the Pacific.

 

Quasar93.