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Who are the twenty four Elders around the throne of God in Rev.4:4 ?


Quasar93

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On 7/31/2023 at 7:08 PM, tatwo said:

there are no literal men labeled as elders in the heaven of John's trip there

I disagree of course. Nothing at all in Revelation says otherwise than these were human elders. These men are just as individual as were the 24 "heads of fathers’ households" of the priesthood of Aaron in 1 Chr. 24.

You presume that these 24 elders are representations/symbols; on the contrary, they are representatives. Just as when Jesus spoke to the presiding spirit possessing the Gadarene demoniac, who said "my name is Legion, for we are many." One spirit represented the whole group. Just as one Congressman represents a whole district.

On 7/31/2023 at 3:57 PM, tatwo said:

Who was it that was worthy to open the scrolls? Was it the Lion or the Lamb? Yes...because they are symbols…

These significations, lion and lamb, are garments.

Rev. 19:8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

There is a big difference between spiritual beings and the garments and armor in which they are clothed. When Jesus appears as the slain Lamb in Rev. 5, He is wearing a heavenly garment that shows his righteous act as sacrificial offering for redemption. When He appears with a sword in His mouth in Rev. 19, He is wearing armor that indicates the Sword of the Spirit. Such spiritual garments and armor are according to spiritual realities; whereas we cannot see such things in our earthly realm. When Satan appears as a red dragon, that is a spiritual garment that represents one of his true natures/acts.

The Hebraic concept of spiritual garments is difficult for Christians to understand. I addressed it in one of my blogs, from which this is an excerpt:

Soul-Garments, Death, and Resurrection

When the physical body dies, its soul becomes separated from its dwelling. The carnal soul soon descends to its kind in Hades/Hell. The righteous soul ascends to its kind in heaven, where it is “given a white robe” (Rev. 6:11) derived from that soulʼs “righteous acts” while on earth:

Revelation 3:5 “The one overcoming shall be clothed in white garments… 18 I counsel you to buy from Me…white garments, that you may be clothed, and the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed…” 19:8 …the fine linen [garment] is the righteous acts of the saints. 1 Peter 5:5 …be clothed with humility…

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house [= physical body] of our tabernacle [= soul] is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this* [soul-tabernacle] we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed having been clothed we shall not be found naked… 4 …but…that mortality may be swallowed up by life. * This”/toutō is neuter, agreeing with verse 1ʼs tabernacle, not house.

Up until the End of the Age, the garments of the souls of the dead are comprised solely of either a heavenly or a hellish substance. These souls are therefore restricted to their respective heavenly and hellish realms. At the resurrection of the dead, however, the material (this earthly realmʼs) body will be raised and be restored to the souls of the dead, just as Jesusʼ body was to Him:

Luke 24:39 [After His resurrection, Jesus appeared to His disciples and said,] “Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Job 19:25 …I know that my Redeemer lives, and afterward He shall arise above the dust; 26 and after my skin they have stricken off of this body, yet from my flesh I shall behold God.

1 John 3:2 …we know that when He shines forth/is manifested, we shall be like Him…

When the great resurrection of the dead takes place, they will become physically re-embodied souls of all types of people:

Daniel 12:2 “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall be caused to awaken, some to everlasting life, and some to shame, to everlasting contempt.” (For the latter, see Isaiah 66:24 and Micah 7:8-10.)

John 5:28 “…an hour comes in which all the ones in the graves will hear His [the Sonʼs] voice 29 and come forth: the ones having done good things to the resurrection of life, and the ones having done evil things to the resurrection of condemnation.”

Because many different kinds of souls will be restored to their bodies, they will appear in all kinds of bodily garments, for each soulʼs bodily form will henceforward conform to its thoughts and deeds. Ones having had a sexually lustful nature will therefore appear exposed and naked, and be shamed. Similarly, others will appear bestial in various ways; and so on.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” … 38 God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

Daniel 12:3 “But the ones having been intelligent/prudent [המשכלים] shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and the ones having turned many to righteousness shall shine like the stars, forever and ever.”

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1523-the-most-holy-place-the-feast-of-tabernacles-aka-feast-of-ingathering/

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On 8/2/2023 at 1:09 PM, WilliamL said:

I disagree of course. Nothing at all in Revelation says otherwise than these were human elders. These men are just as individual as were the 24 "heads of fathers’ households" of the priesthood of Aaron in 1 Chr. 24.

This discussion will go nowhere for “us” WilliamL…what it appears to do for you is…that it simply serves as a way for you to pronounce your “belief” in writing…so that when you read it to yourself…and approve it…you once again pat yourself on your back as being right…verifying that someone else…in this case me…is incorrect in your view.

This is how I have observed many like you behaving on these forums…I already “know” I am right…why actually engage in constructive dialogue with a potential brother…and watch Christ come forth.

Here is why I say this…I am noticing that you apparently don’t answer questions…in your ignoring of my questions…you have presented your tendency to press your understanding over and above the discussion itself…directing the conversation as you see fit by making sure that you stay within the lines of your own ideology where you are comfortable.

This then causes you to blow right by any constructive or gainful revelation being made available…versus responding in an open dialogue….like I am sure you would if we were face to face.

Tatwo...:)

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52 minutes ago, tatwo said:

This is how I have observed many like you behaving on these forums…I already “know” I am right…why actually engage in constructive dialogue with a potential brother…and watch Christ come forth.

And you think you don't come across in the same way?? We all think we are right in what we believe.

Consider the following statement of yours:

On 7/31/2023 at 3:57 PM, tatwo said:

I am not going to bother with your comments on “elder” because it does not append to the scene taking place in heaven with John and what he is encountering. Everything John sees is symbolic…everything. There is no actual literal throne…are you kidding me?

So you come across as one who thinks he does not have to "bother with [my] comments." How condescending is that?

My blogs and posts are loaded with scriptural evidence, far more than yours. You think, for example, that all you need to do is make unquoted references to scenes in Daniel and then make authoritative claims about them.  Then feel affronted if others don't agree.

I think I'll quote from my relevant blog on this general subject:

Preparing for Combat

Every soldier, Christian or otherwise, preparing for combat must train for combat.

A believer posting in a Christian forum wherein doctrines are discussed and debated should be prepared to get battered and cut. Because the Word is a sharp sword, and it is a rod of iron. People always get injured during heavy training – get used to it, and don’t be a whiny soldier.

Because when you are called into service against the real Enemy of our souls, those cuts and bruises will have been your valuable teachers: they showed you where your weaknesses were, and you (hopefully) learned to abandon unsound practices.

Because bad swordsmanship and bad rodsmanship will ultimately bring you shame before our Commander.

Semper fi.

 

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19 hours ago, WilliamL said:
20 hours ago, tatwo said:

This is how I have observed many like you behaving on these forums…I already “know” I am right…why actually engage in constructive dialogue with a potential brother…and watch Christ come forth.

And you think you don't come across in the same way?? We all think we are right in what we believe.

Consider the following statement of yours:

On 7/31/2023 at 4:57 PM, tatwo said:

I am not going to bother with your comments on “elder” because it does not append to the scene taking place in heaven with John and what he is encountering. Everything John sees is symbolic…everything. There is no actual literal throne…are you kidding me?

So you come across as one who thinks he does not have to "bother with [my] comments." How condescending is that?

Perhaps you are right WilliamL..perhaps. Forgive me for my offense.

I am merely admitting that you and I are not on the same frequency as to the "nature" of the 24 elders and that I see no need to further the discussion concerning the "elders."

Then in an attempt to draw out of you some constructive bi-directional "interaction" I make a statement and ask a question..."There is no actual literal throne…are you kidding me?" Here is your response...

"No, I'm not kidding you, but you seem to think that God is."

Really WilliamL...really? That is what you think of me...personally...and you post it in writing. Then there is this...

"Everything in your argument is based upon your personal rationalizations."

Humm? And your assessment is just simply "you are wrong Tatwo"...so I have been judged by WilliamL at this point eh? Then there is this...

"You haven't provided one single scripture that says everything John saw is merely symbolic."

This conversation cannot go forward because you skip the questions that would tie the discussion together from my end...which would then be a more clear indication of my interpretation of the passages we are specifically discussing...in light of your own. Discussion...not judgement without discussion. Then this gem of a statement...

"Certainly symbolism is involved, but that there throne is as real as anything else in Creation."

So this is how you answer? It's a total whiff...John is not seeing a throne in creation...as you suggest...it is in the heavenlies outside of creation WilliamL. This is the point of my throne statement and question...of this discussion. 

John was on Patmos and in the Spirit on the Lord's day and he heard, then saw the "Alpha and Omega" as he described Him in heavily symbolic terms Revelation 1.

Then after the letters to the churches...he says he was "called through" the open doors into heaven. This is where John saw the "throne" and again the symbolic description of the one who sits there...Revelation 4.

This is in the eternal heavens which is the realm of the eternal Spirit of our God and Father...John attempts to disclose what was revealed to him...to us in utterly symbolic terminology.

It is terminology that can be followed from Genesis through Revelation..."You do not live by the five senses in regard to heaven; you live by that which is revealed."

"It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD." 

"Bread" a reference to that which feeds the flesh..."Word" a reference to that which feeds the spirit. Bread is "symbolic" of the life Christ gives of Himself...to us to live eternally...Spirit. 

I never said anything about a "throne not being real" I said it is not a literal, physical throne...and that the concept of the "throne" is symbolic of power and authority...this is true both in the physical and the Spirit realm.

As I said...you and I WilliamL cannot connect in a discussion like this...for the reason I have mentioned. Unless something changes what is the point of this anyways?

Tatwo...:)

 

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4 hours ago, tatwo said:

whiff...John is not seeing a throne in creation...as you suggest...it is in the heavenlies outside of creation

"In the beginning God created the heavens..." They are a part of Creation, not "outside of creation."

4 hours ago, tatwo said:

I am merely admitting that you and I are not on the same frequency as to the "nature" of the 24 elders and that I see no need to further the discussion concerning the "elders."

I agree. Both views have been presented, and when it starts getting to multiple repetitions of the same points it's time to move on.

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On 8/7/2023 at 5:16 PM, WilliamL said:

"In the beginning God created the heavens..." They are a part of Creation, not "outside of creation."

This then...is the contention between us for this discussion WilliamL.

How do you explain that which existed before and after creation?

In John 17 the Lord Yahshua says that the Father loved Him “before” the foundation of the world…and Peter says Christ was foreordained “before” the foundation of the world…in 1 Peter 1…so…He exists outside of creation.

Paul says in Ephesians 1 that we were chose in “Him”…Christ…”before” the foundation of the world…so those that Paul is talking about exist outside of the constraints of creation as well.

It’s just that…the heavens and the earth are created…therefore not eternal…and as such they will be destroyed.

Then there are verses like But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men” from 2 Peter 3

2Pe 3:12-13 “looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?   Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.”

Heb 12:27 “This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.”

The creator has always existed outside of His creation...creation exists within eternity...anything created will cease…simply because it is not eternal...yet the eternal exists...

Rev 1:8  "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Tatwo...:)

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On 8/9/2023 at 5:14 AM, tatwo said:

How do you explain that which existed before and after creation?

Are you trying to change the subject? The question was whether or not the heavens were created, or existed before creation:

On 8/7/2023 at 11:41 AM, tatwo said:

John is not seeing a throne in creation...as you suggest...it is in the heavenlies outside of creation WilliamL.

To which I replied:

On 8/7/2023 at 4:16 PM, WilliamL said:

"In the beginning God created the heavens..." They are a part of Creation, not "outside of creation."

Please justify your statement by means of Scripture, if you can.

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13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Are you trying to change the subject?

No...you wrote..."In the beginning God created the heavens..." They are a part of Creation, not "outside of creation."

To which I replied..."This then...is the contention between us for this discussion WilliamL."

"How do you explain that which existed before and after creation?"

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The question was whether or not the heavens were created, or existed before creation:

The question I asked was as stated above..."How do you explain that which existed before and after creation?" I understand that the heavens and earth were created...my question reflects that.

14 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Please justify your statement by means of Scripture, if you can.

Ok...in response to your post below.

On 8/7/2023 at 5:16 PM, WilliamL said:

"In the beginning God created the heavens..." They are a part of Creation, not "outside of creation."

Tatwo...:)

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