Skeleton Rapture Crew

[Guest shiloh357]

34 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

'Remnant theology' denies Matt 24 for the church, but is incorrect. There are no 'dispensations' as theological basis for understanding eschatology. Plain reading says what it says. Plainly.

There is nothing about Matt. 24 that is for the church.  Everything about it is relevant to Israel.  It's not remnant theology.   It's just how the passage reads. The Church is not in view.   In fact, it lines up with Rev. 12 which is about Israel during the Tribulation.

[Justin Adams]

10 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

There is nothing about Matt. 24 that is for the church.  Everything about it is relevant to Israel.  It's not remnant theology.   It's just how the passage reads. The Church is not in view.   In fact, it lines up with Rev. 12 which is about Israel during the Tribulation.

Classical pretribulationism minimizes the application of the Olivet Discourse for the church. Alan Kurschner/Charles Cooper

The motivation for this claim recognizes the implication that the church would encounter Antichrist’s great tribulation. They must then posit a secret rapture that occurs before the events in Matthew 24 because their theology teaches that Christ can come back at any moment to rapture the church before the Antichrist’s great tribulation. Accordingly, they will claim that the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 does not refer to the rapture, but instead refers to the re-gathering of Israel. In addition, they interpret Jesus coming back in power and great glory in Matthew 24 as happening at the battle of Armageddon. Therefore, the events described in the Olivet Discourse do not apply to the church. This theological presupposition is a forced interpretation upon the natural reading of the text. The following points will show that this is an unwarranted position:

First, in the Great Commission, Jesus taught these same disciples—and by extension the church—that he would be with them to the end of the age (Matt 28:18–20). And Jesus also taught them that this end of the age extends into the events of the Olivet Discourse, since he places the end of the age inside his Olivet Discourse: “And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come” (Matt 24:14 ESV).

Having established that the church will be present to the end of the age in verse 14, we can take it a step further and show how verse 14 relates to what follows it. In verses 9–14, Jesus spoke of “tribulation,” the persecution of the saints, followed by the end of the age. Next, in verse 15, Jesus unpacks that persecution explaining how it will come about, which begins a parenthetical section clarifying the previous section. That is, verses 15–31 do not follow chronologically verses 9–14; instead, it thematically develops verses 9–14 on the tribulation, persecution, and spiritual action the believer is to take. There are two good reasons for this. Grammatically, verse 15 begins with the conjunction noun, rendered “therefore” (or “so” in some translations). This conjunction functions inferentially as a deduction or summary to the preceding discussion. Jesus gives the additional detail that those who experience the persecution described in verse 9 will do so because of the consequences of the abomination of desolation that causes great tribulation. There is another reason we know that verses 15–31 thematically develops verses 9–14.  Notice in verse 15, Jesus says, “Therefore when you see.” He has the same audience in view from verse 9. There is no justification to claim that the “you” in verse 15 is a different “you” in verse 9.

Second, it has been argued from many pretribulationists that since the book of Matthew is “Jewish,” the Olivet Discourse cannot be for the Gentiles. This assertion is riddled with the following problems. (1) The Olivet Discourse is also found in the books of Mark and Luke whose audience were principally Gentile. (2) In Matthew when Jesus was being rejected by the Jewish leadership, he taught that the gospel would expand beyond Israel to other nations: “For this reason I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit” (Matt 21:43). Accordingly, he was preparing his disciples for church instruction. (3) Matthew is the only gospel that mentions the word “church,” ekklēsia (Matt 16:18; 18:17). This does not mean, of course, the other gospels do not apply to the church; the point is that those who seek to disconnect church teaching from Matthew must contend with that biblical fact. (4) By their logic we should not observe the Lord’s Supper since it is commanded in Matthew 26:17–30. (5) Pretribulationists agree that the Great Commission is for the church, and yet that passage is found in the book of Matthew (Matt 28:19–20). In addition, in the Great Commission, Jesus says, “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Why should his teaching on the Olivet Discourse and his commands therein be excluded from “everything”? Selective interpretation is a sign of a failed argument. The reasons could go on and on, but the point is that the consequences of the presupposition to a secret pretribulational rapture results in a tortured reading and application of Matthew 24–25, and a presupposition that affects other teachings in Matthew. In short, it is a false dichotomy to claim that since the book of Matthew is Jewish, the Olivet Discourse does not pertain to the church. But how some can so easily forget that thefirst members of the church were all Jewish, preparing to take all of Jesus’ teachings and commands to the Gentiles!

Third, frequently pretribulationism asserts that Matthew 24 is not for the church and thus does not contain a rapture teaching. Yet in the same conversation they will unmindfully quote the following verse in respect to the rapture: “But as for that day and hour no one knows it—not even the angels in heaven–except the Father alone.” This verse is from Matthew 24:36, the Olivet Discourse! So they cannot have it both ways.

Fourth, in Paul’s teaching for the church in Thessalonians, he draws from at least 25 parallels from Matthew’s Olivet Discourse, demonstrating that the Olivet Discourse is intended for the church.

Fifth, other reasons can be given to why the Olivet Discourse pertains to the church. For example, the “elect” in Matthew 24 refers to Gentile and Jewish believers (i.e., the church). And a cluster of New Testament authors who wrote to local churches reference back to Jesus’ teaching on the parousia, applying it to their own churches. Further, the early church fathers in their writings applied Jesus’ Olivet Discourse to the church. For a detailed defense of these latter three points, see Charles Cooper’s, God’s Elect and the Great Tribulation: An Interpretation of Matthew 24:1–31 and Daniel 9, chs. 1–4.

[Last Daze]

49 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Jesus' return and his appearance are not the same thing. Jesus will appear to gather us, but his return is at the end of Tribulation and it  is destroy the armies gathered around Jerusalem in Rev. 19 and Zech. 14.

More baseless conjecture.  Here are the scriptures to be believed:

• Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.  2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

The coming of Jesus, and our gathering to Him (the resurrection, change, rapture) is something that happens on the day of the Lord.  That's pretty straightforward.

• Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.  For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.  1 Thessalonians 5:1-2

The day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.  As equally straightforward.  When does Jesus say that He is coming like a thief?

• Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.  Revelation 16:15

Jesus says this as the armies are gathering together for the battle of Armageddon.  Our gathering to Him (the resurrection, change, rapture) is on the last day, just as Jesus stated it would be several times in John 6.

• For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

According to scripture, we are gathered on the day of the Lord, which comes like a thief in the night, which is after the armies gather for Armageddon, which is on the last day.  You're certainly free to believe whatever you wish, but that's what's clearly stated in scripture.  I'd recommend giving precedence to the many exhortations and warnings to stay awake, persevere, and endure to the end.  There is no scriptural "great escape", only one contrived by men.

 

 

[Last Daze]

58 minutes ago, Davida said:

Put it this way if I tell you I'm coming to see you...(but don't give you a specified date....Therefore If you don't know "the day or hour I will appear" i.e. You don't have a clue When that will be. lol! It will be a sudden surprise!

If I tell you that I'm coming to see you next fall, do you know the day or hour?  No, but you know the season.

I can tell you that I'm coming to see you next week, and you still don't know the day or hour.

[Last Daze]

24 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

There is nothing about Matt. 24 that is for the church.  Everything about it is relevant to Israel.  It's not remnant theology.   It's just how the passage reads. The Church is not in view.   In fact, it lines up with Rev. 12 which is about Israel during the Tribulation.

You keep saying that like it's true but you are mistaken.  Why do you ignore verse 9?

• “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."  Matthew 24:9

Israel is going to be hated by all nations because of Jesus' name?  Care to explain that?

The "you" being referred to are those who hold to the testimony of Jesus.  Matthew 24 is for those people.

[Guest shiloh357]

20 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

More baseless conjecture.  Here are the scriptures to be believed:

• Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.  2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

The coming of Jesus, and our gathering to Him (the resurrection, change, rapture) is something that happens on the day of the Lord.  That's pretty straightforward.

• Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.  For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.  1 Thessalonians 5:1-2

The day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.  As equally straightforward.  When does Jesus say that He is coming like a thief?

• Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.  Revelation 16:15

Jesus says this as the armies are gathering together for the battle of Armageddon.  Our gathering to Him (the resurrection, change, rapture) is on the last day, just as Jesus stated it would be several times in John 6.

• For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

According to scripture, we are gathered on the day of the Lord, which comes like a thief in the night, which is after the armies gather for Armageddon, which is on the last day.  You're certainly free to believe whatever you wish, but that's what's clearly stated in scripture.  I'd recommend giving precedence to the many exhortations and warnings to stay awake, persevere, and endure to the end.  There is no scriptural "great escape", only one contrived by men.

 

 

The "day of the Lord" is not a "day."  It actually covers the rapture, the Tribulation, the second coming and the Millennium. 

Secondly, If Jesus return is like a thief in the night, that makes no sense in the light of final chapters of Revelation.  There is no surprise in effect.  And once the Tribuation begins, we know that it is only seven years from that point to Revelation 19.  

And there is nothing in the book of Revelation about us being gathered to Him.  His return in the book of Revelation is to preserve Israel, not gather the saints.

That means that being gathered to Him is prior to His return in Revelation 19.

[Guest shiloh357]

25 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Second, it has been argued from many pretribulationists that since the book of Matthew is “Jewish,” the Olivet Discourse cannot be for the Gentiles. This assertion is riddled with the following problems. (1) The Olivet Discourse is also found in the books of Mark and Luke whose audience were principally Gentile.

That is not true.  The original audience of the Olivet discourse was never delivered to a Gentile audience in the Gospels.  All three Gospels tell us that the original audience were Jesus' Jewish disciples.
 

Quote

(2) In Matthew when Jesus was being rejected by the Jewish leadership, he taught that the gospel would expand beyond Israel to other nations: “For this reason I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit” (Matt 21:43). Accordingly, he was preparing his disciples for church instruction.

That "people" was not talking about the Gentiles.  Furthermore, it has nothing to do at all with the Olivet Discourse.

Quote

(3) Matthew is the only gospel that mentions the word “church,” ekklēsia (Matt 16:18; 18:17). This does not mean, of course, the other gospels do not apply to the church; the point is that those who seek to disconnect church teaching from Matthew must contend with that biblical fact.

In Hebrew/Aramaic, which Jesus spoke the word is kehilati and it means, my congregation."    Again, though, that has nothing to do with the Olivet Disciourse.

 

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(4) By their logic we should not observe the Lord’s Supper since it is commanded in Matthew 26:17–30.

No, that argument does not follow.   It does not follow that just because we don't see the Church anywhere indicated in the Olivet Discourse that nothing in the book of Matthew is relevant to the Church.   The author is raising a strawman argument.

Quote

(5) Pretribulationists agree that the Great Commission is for the church, and yet that passage is found in the book of Matthew (Matt 28:19–20). In addition, in the Great Commission, Jesus says, “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” Why should his teaching on the Olivet Discourse and his commands therein be excluded from “everything”? Selective interpretation is a sign of a failed argument. The reasons could go on and on, but the point is that the consequences of the presupposition to a secret pretribulational rapture results in a tortured reading and application of Matthew 24–25, and a presupposition that affects other teachings in Matthew. In short, it is a false dichotomy to claim that since the book of Matthew is Jewish, the Olivet Discourse does not pertain to the church. But how some can so easily forget that thefirst members of the church were all Jewish, preparing to take all of Jesus’ teachings and commands to the Gentiles!

Everything in the Olivet Discourse is uniquely Jewish.   For example.  "Jesus says when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not stand..."   That's a reference to the Temple mount, meaning there is going to be an abomination take place there in Israel on the temple mount.   That would only be significant to Jews as it is their chief holy site.

When Jesus speaks of the Jews in Israel having to flee, he says, "pray that your flight not be in the winter or not the Sabbath."   That's not important to Christians, but immensely important to Jews.  And that flight into the mountains that Jesus mentions aligns with Israel being hidden from the AC during the Tribulation in the wilderness.   It aligns perfectly.   Everything that Jesus says is in response to a question asked to Him by Jews, not Gentiles.

 

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Third, frequently pretribulationism asserts that Matthew 24 is not for the church and thus does not contain a rapture teaching. Yet in the same conversation they will unmindfully quote the following verse in respect to the rapture: “But as for that day and hour no one knows it—not even the angels in heaven–except the Father alone.” This verse is from Matthew 24:36, the Olivet Discourse! So they cannot have it both ways.

He is ripping that verse from it context. Jesus is not talking about the Second Coming.   The Second Coming of Jesus is preceded by a host of events that lead directly up to it.   That means it cannot take anyone by surprise, particularly if the saints are still on the earth during the Tribulation.   You can follow the Bible like  road map during the Tribulation which precludes the Second Coming taking us by surprise like a thief in the night.   The "coming" Jesus is referring to is when He comes for his Church, not when he returns in Rev. 19

 

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Fourth, in Paul’s teaching for the church in Thessalonians, he draws from at least 25 parallels from Matthew’s Olivet Discourse, demonstrating that the Olivet Discourse is intended for the church.

That does not mean  that the Tribulation is for the Church.

 

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Fifth, other reasons can be given to why the Olivet Discourse pertains to the church. For example, the “elect” in Matthew 24 refers to Gentile and Jewish believers (i.e., the church).

No, because in a non-redemptive sense, the nation of Israel is God's "elect."   The redeemed, the spiritually elect, are not on the earth during the Tribulation.

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And a cluster of New Testament authors who wrote to local churches reference back to Jesus’ teaching on the parousia, applying it to their own churches. Further, the early church fathers in their writings applied Jesus’ Olivet Discourse to the church. For a detailed defense of these latter three points, see Charles Cooper’s, God’s Elect and the Great Tribulation: An Interpretation of Matthew 24:1–31 and Daniel 9, chs. 1–4.

The early church fathers are a poor means by which to understand the Bible.   They were mostly anti-Semitic which is why they saw the Jewish references to Israel as being for the Church.   So, it is not surprising that they would read Israel out of the NT prophecies and replace it with the church.

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Yes it does.  Read your Bible.  Dan. 9:27.  The "one week" is the 7 year covenant which marks the beginning of the Tribulation. The covenant will be broken at the 3 1/2 mark which is the latter half of the Tribulation ,which is what the book of Revelation is primarily concerned with.

Yes, it is one week. Yes, there is a 7 year covenant. Yes, the confirming of the covenant signals the beginning of the week. However, the last week is never equated with 'tribulation', any where in scripture. A part of the 70th week is referred to as 'great tribulation'. Where does scripture equate the entire 70th week with tribulation? Again, nowhere. 

The 2nd coming is at the end of the book of Revelation after the destruction of mystery babylon, at slaughter of Armageddon.  

The appearance, we are told cannot be ascertained; no man knows the day or the hour.   If  Jesus were talking about the 2nd coming, that comment would not make sense.

It's the same as a child being born. We know that nine months after conception there is going to be a baby but it's never 9 months exactly. We don't know the day or the hour but we can see the time approach. Then the child appears and comes to the world from the womb. Just like Jesus will appear. We will know when, just not the exact moment.

His appearance will be seen by His saints when we are raptured out.  He is not returning to the earth, but calling the Church out of the earth, which is why the Church is not mentioned as going through the Tribulation in the book of Revelation.

Then it's not an appearance. And did you know that proving nonexistence is a very difficult thing? 

 

 

[Last Daze]

46 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The "day of the Lord" is not a "day."  It actually covers the rapture, the Tribulation, the second coming and the Millennium. 

Secondly, If Jesus return is like a thief in the night, that makes no sense in the light of final chapters of Revelation.  There is no surprise in effect.  And once the Tribuation begins, we know that it is only seven years from that point to Revelation 19.  

And there is nothing in the book of Revelation about us being gathered to Him.  His return in the book of Revelation is to preserve Israel, not gather the saints.

That means that being gathered to Him is prior to His return in Revelation 19.

Whether what Jesus said makes sense to you or not is beside the point.  He knows when the day of the Lord is, when He comes like a thief, and He told us.  Reject it in lieu of what makes sense to you if you wish, but I don't recommend doing so.

[Diaste]

This type of debate can go round and round. Over the years I have tried everything I know to combat the misleading doctrine of pretrib: Biblical facts, biblical examples, rational debate, logic. Nothing makes any difference to some. People are going to believe what they wish. It can't be stopped. It's the virtue and vice of mankind.

Lastdaze said it well, "Reality will prove it in way words just can't."

That reality is coming. The beast is here and will soon be empowered.

I hearken back to the words of Jesus I heard many years ago, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

I don't yet know if we are seeing these things of which He spoke. But Israel is back in the land. The Jews have prepared to build the Temple and are ready as of today to begin construction. Arabs are ready to talk about the Temple standing once again. The US just missed the deadline to move the Embassy to Jerusalem.

The opening of the first seal and the unleashing of the beast is next. 

There will be no rapture before this.