Skeleton Rapture Crew

[inchrist]

3 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Your determination of what salvation opportunities will be taking place during this horrifying judgment runs counter to God's determination given in His Word .

Initially God has determined that on the day that ,  " the man of sin is revealed " ,  all who have not ,   " received the love of the truth , that they might be saved " 

will receive from God Himself the first spiritual constraint of the  tribulation judgement :

                                                    " God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie . "   ( 2 Thessalonians 2 : 11 ) 

And I  believe God's use of the term  " strong delusion " to be an understatement not an overstatement . 

There will be no Christians  looking to God and telling Him  " excuse me  , we are not done persuading yet Lord " as God is sending " strong delusion " .

What " you describe "  is confusion that runs counter to God's stated intent .

The house divided you are proposing  is as " flawed"  an argument as you can make .

At least according to  what Jesus says about that .

 

                                                          " That they  ALL might be damned who believed not the truth , but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

                                                                                ( 2 Thessalonians 2 : 12 )

 

"Contrary to the word of God"

These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Doesnt say these are they who came out prior to the great tribulation.....

How then did your "tribulation saints" get saved if God already determined for them to believe a strong delusion?

Edited December 10, 2017 by inchrist

[Unfailing Presence]

2 minutes ago, inchrist said:

"Contrary to the word of God"

These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Doesnt say prior to the great tribulation.....

How then did your "tribulation saints" get saved?

You are still confused .  With the chronology this time as well .

You are right it does not say " prior to "

It says simultaneously  .

And this is not the " come out " ,  this is the beginning.

God says this "strong delusion " He sends concurrently  as  " the man of sin is revealed "  .

At the start , the beginning , first order of business , top of the list ,,,,,  . 

 

                                                  " And then shall that wicked be revealed  ............even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and 

                                                      signs and lying wonders ......And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion , that they should believe a lie ."

                                                             (  2 Thessalonians  2 : 8-12 )

[inchrist]

2 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

 And this is not the " come out " ,  this is the beginning.

 

No the greek does not imply that all actually.

They are coming out the midst of the great tribulation. its a continuous action. I'll be happy to run through NT greek tenses with you.

However this does not answer my question, you are prior not beginning of tribulation, How then did your "tribulation saints" get saved "out of the great tribulation" if God already determined for them to believe a strong delusion?

 

 

[Unfailing Presence]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

No the greek does not imply that all actually.

They are coming out the midst of the great tribulation. its a continuous action. I'll be happy to run through NT greek tenses with you.

However this does not answer my question, you are prior not beginning of tribulation, How then did your "tribulation saints" get saved "out of the great tribulation" if God already determined for them to believe a strong delusion?

 

 

I'm assuming that you believe God's word that He is indeed sending " strong delusion " , although you appear be completely  unaware of just whom He is sending this " strong delusion "  to ?

After all , if God's Word says He  is , " sending " , it we can be assured that someone is receiving it .

When you are able to discern who God's " strong delusion " recipients are , you will have gone a long way to answering the other question you seem to be  drawing yet another   blank on , who the " tribulation saints " are ? 

                                                        " That they all might be damned who believed not the truth , but had pleasure in unrighteousness . "

                                                                   ( 2 Thessalonians 2 : 12 )

 

 

[Quasar93]

10 hours ago, inchrist said:

And you can see the disciples baptizing prior to pentecost 

John 4:1-2

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

And they had the Holy spirit prior to Pentecost

Matthew 10:19-20

19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

However non of what you posted is proving the church was founded at pentecost.

 

 

You're assuming this event was a brand new thing.

Your question needs to be changed to rather

1. What is a church,

2.When was the church founded,

3. and what was taken place at Pentecost.

This will come down to understanding events of the temple(s).

But to start I will point you to the wilderness of Sinai, and what took place at pentecost at both places, Sinai and the Upper Room, was both the same event seperated by time.

One being the birth of Israel, the other being the rebirth of Israel.

 

 

FYI, the water baptism by John the Baptist does not give those he baptizes the Holy Spirit, but as I posted previously, believing/receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior, He immediately baptizes the believer with the Holy Spirit, as He taught Nicodemus in John 3.  And that person becomes a born again Christian.  As such, Jesus disciples had the Holy Spirit before Pentecost, as recorded in Mt.3:11 and Acts 2:38.  Which does not alter the fact, the Church did not exist until it was founded with the advent of the Holy Spirit.

Mt.3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

FYI, I am a qualified Bible teacher I earned from three different Bible Seminaries.  With 80 years of Bible study together with the better part of 20 years of participation on Christian discussion forums, together with my own.  And where, may I ask, did you earn your qualifications to teach the Bible?

 

Quasar93

 

 

[Quasar93]

27 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

FYI, the water baptism by John the Baptist does not give those he baptizes the Holy Spirit, but as I posted previously, believing/receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior, He immediately baptizes the believer with the Holy Spirit, as He taught Nicodemus in John 3.  And that person becomes a born again Christian.  As such, Jesus disciples had the Holy Spirit before Pentecost, as recorded in Mt.3:11 and Acts 2:38.  Which does not alter the fact, the Church did not exist until it was founded with the advent of the Holy Spirit.

Mt.3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

FYI, I am a qualified Bible teacher I earned from three different Bible Seminaries.  With 80 years of Bible study together with the better part of 20 years of participation on Christian discussion forums, together with my own.  And where, may I ask, did you earn your qualifications to teach the Bible?

 

Quasar93

 

 

Did the church begin in John 20:22 or at Pentecost in Acts 2:4?

In answer to your question I have taken some of the arguments from Ryrie’s Basic Theology and added a few comments with a few more verses as well in some places. I would strongly recommend this excellent Theology for its soundness and simplicity.

The church did not exist in Old Testament times but was constituted on the Day of Pentecost (arguments to support the day of Pentecost will be given below). It is distinct to this present time period. Several lines of evidence support this conclusion.

(1) Our Lord said: “I will build My church” (Matt. 16:18). He did not say that He would continue to add to something already in existence, but that He would do something not yet begun.

(2) The church could have no functioning Head until after the resurrection of Christ; therefore, it could not exist until some time after He rose from the dead (Eph. 1:20-23—note how these verses connect His resurrection, ascension, and session to His headship over the church).

(3) The church could not have been an operating entity with functioning spiritual gifts until after Christ’s ascension. This is the clear implication of Eph. 4:7-12.

By a comparison of a number of passages, it seems clear that Pentecost marked the beginning of the church as a functioning body (the body of Christ) by the outpouring of the Spirit on that day. Note the following arguments:

(1) Before His ascension the Lord promised that the disciples would be baptized with the Holy Spirit soon (Acts 1:5).

(2) Though the word “baptism” does not appear in the account of Pentecost in chapter 2, it is quite clear from 11:15-16 that the baptism occurred for the first time on that day. Note carefully Peter’s argument here. In verse 15 he equated the indwelling of the Spirit in Acts 10:44 on the Gentile believers there with the coming of the Spirit and His indwelling in Acts 2. Then in verse 16, he equated all of this with the Lord’s promise of the baptizing of the Spirit in Acts 1:5 which shows these were one and the same, i.e., the baptizing of the Spirit. But what exactly is that?

(3) According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:13, Spirit baptism is a special work of the Spirit that places people (believers) in the body of Christ. So what is the body of Christ? The body of Christ is the church according to Ephesians 1:22-23. Thus, the church, the body, began when those first individuals were baptized by the Spirit which began the process of placing believers into the Body whenever any one believes in Christ. This process began at Pentecost.

Several other things occurred on the Day of Pentecost. The disciples were filled with the Spirit (Acts 2:4). Three thousand were baptized with water (v. 41). The visible church began that day (vv. 42-47).

In addition to baptizing those who believe into the body, the Spirit also indwells individual Christians (1 Cor. 6:19), local churches (3:16), and the body of Christ (Eph. 2:22). The Spirit also empowers, leads, comforts, and gives gifts to the church (Acts 1:8; 9:31; 1 Cor. 12:3). In a very real sense, the Spirit is the energizing life and power of the church.

So, what about the John 20:22 passage?

(1) This may have been a temporary indwelling until Pentecost similar to the indwelling of the Spirit in OT times as with Saul and David, an indwelling that could be removed as it was with Saul (cf. also Ps. 51:10-11 and Luke 11:13). David prayed that the HS might not be taken from Him, a prayer we can’t pray today since Spirit is given to us permanently as a seal unto the day of redemption (cf. Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30; see also John 14:16). In Luke 11:13 the Lord told the disciples they could at that time ask for the indwelling of the Spirit. They evidently did not and so, until Pentecost, He gave them the Spirit as a temporary enabling. At Pentecost, when the church began, the Spirit’s indwelling became permanent.

(2) On the other hand, some believe that this act of breathing on them was a kind of prophecy or a symbolic act in anticipation of the Spirit’s ultimate fulfillment of Ezekiel 37. For the argument of this view, see the footnote in the NET Bible on John 20:22 on our web site.

Related Topics: Ecclesiology (The Church)

Source: https://bible.org/question/did-church-begin-john-2022-or-pentecost-acts-24

 

 

Quasar93

[inchrist]

6 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

I'm assuming that you believe God's word that He is indeed sending " strong delusion " , although you appear be completely  unaware of just whom He is sending this " strong delusion "  to ?

After all , if God's Word says He  is , " sending " , it we can be assured that someone is receiving it .

When you are able to discern who God's " strong delusion " recipients are , you will have gone a long way to answering the other question you seem to be  drawing yet another   blank on , who the " tribulation saints " are ? 

                                                        " That they all might be damned who believed not the truth , but had pleasure in unrighteousness . "

                                                                   ( 2 Thessalonians 2 : 12 )

 

 

Well heres your fallacy.

 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 is referring to people who reject the truth during the Tribulation not before. These are people who willfully decide to follow the antichrist.

If a person refuses to believe Christ prior to your pre trib Rapture, there is still hope that he will trust Christ after your pre trib Rapture, hence your tribulation saints, who rejected christ prior to the tribulation or included those who never heard the gospel prior to your pretrib rapture. Clearly we still have people who need to be saved during the tribulation? Yes?

 drawing yet another   blank

The only blank im drawing,  when was the first blank?

[inchrist]

2 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

FYI, the water baptism by John the Baptist does not give those he baptizes the Holy Spirit, but as I posted previously, believing/receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior, He immediately baptizes the believer with the Holy Spirit, as He taught Nicodemus in John 3.  And that person becomes a born again Christian.  As such, Jesus disciples had the Holy Spirit before Pentecost, as recorded in Mt.3:11 and Acts 2:38.  Which does not alter the fact, the Church did not exist until it was founded with the advent of the Holy Spirit.

All it shows is the Holy spirit fills the church.

I must then respectfully ask what body existed prior to pentecost that Christ sang Gods name in?

What body then had a 120 members?

Quote

 The church did not exist in Old Testament times but was constituted on the Day of Pentecost (arguments to support the day of Pentecost will be given below). It is distinct to this present time period. Several lines of evidence support this conclusion

Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledgeas our apostle and high priest. ² He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house.³ Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. ⁴ For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. ⁵ “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,”^[a]bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. ⁶ But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

moses was faithful as servant in the church, Christ is faithful as head over the church.

 

Edited December 11, 2017 by inchrist

[inchrist]

2 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Did the church begin in John 20:22 or at Pentecost in Acts 2:4?(1) Our Lord said: “I will build My church” (Matt. 16:18). He did not say that He would continue to add to something already in existence, but that He would do something not yet begun.

 

New International Version
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it

I will Build: οἰκοδομήσω

It means also to edify

I erect a building, build; fig. of the building up of character: I build up, edify, encourage.

Edify means to improve something already existing

Hell or hades is referring to death

hádēs (from 1 /A "not" andidein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades

............

The translation reads as follows:

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will edify [\b] my church, and the gates of Hades death will not overcome it.

Here is what christ is teaching

The very rock which christ pointed at was the place of his crucifixion. The crucifixion edified an existing church which overcomes death (resurrection)

 

 

 

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

My response to your dogmatic non-Scriptural opinions were provided with complete Scriptural support of the interpretation contained within them, thoroughly refuting you.  Your insistence the opinions you present supersede that which the Scriptures teach, in order to fit your personal belief system, is unacceptable.  As such, this terminates my discussion with you, as unteachable.

 

Quasar93

The Word of God is Triumphant. Again.