Skeleton Rapture Crew

[ForHisGlory37]

3 hours ago, Davida said:

Less drama please? Apparently you missed the catching away in scripture --that is one, then Jesus return with an army of angels and the saints -that is two.

I'm sorry but any little kid would be able to tell you that if you say "first of two comings," will say that that doesn't make sense and you really mean three.  Tell me, where in the world in Scripture does it say that it doesn't count if His feet doesn't touch the ground?  Because what I believe is shall I say "crystal clear" in scripture that we are still here during the tribulation.   Matthew 24:29 Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the start shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:v. 30 AND THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  v.31 And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET ( where does it mention trumpet in Revelation?  after the seals where the moon turns to blood, earthquakes, the sun is blackened as sackcloth... after the star "wormwood" falls from the heaven (Rev. 8:10-11) ... Revelation 11:15 The seventh trumpet (or last trumpet sound).  and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Now remember the parable of the tares and the wheat?  From Matthew 13: 24-30.  Another parable put he forth unto them saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field.  but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.  so the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field?  from whence then hath it tares?  He said unto them, an enemy hath done this.  The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 

 When is this harvest?:  Revelation 14: 15-19 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.  (This is the last harvest , your wheat) And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. ( This is the harvest of judgment, your tares) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 

 

 

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

There are only Two groups of people on the earth , the saved and the lost .

That you assert  the saved in Christ are in  need of something more than trusting the blood bought salvation to be clothed in the righteous of Christ leaves me speechless .

 

                                        " The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in ,from this time forth , and even for evermore . "

                                               ( Psalm 121 : 8 )

Hmmm...

 

1 Peter 4:17

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

There are only two groups, it's true, but even those in the house of God are not so perfect. Cleansing of the heart is required and will be accomplished. This is the reason for the fire of the beast, purification of the church, only then the gathering. 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Negative!  Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.24, and counter gospels of Mark 13 and Luke 21 are EXCLUSIVELY to Israel, that He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in 10:5-6..  

The Church DID NOT  exist them, because the Holy Spirit had not come yet, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, tem days after Jesus had ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.

Your attempt to take the teachings of Paul, in Thess.4:13-18 to the Church, and attach it to Jesus Olivet Discourse, addressed to Israel, is completely exegetical error!  You deliberately reject the Scriptures that refute what you attempt to interpret them as saying. in the following:

 

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

 

Reviews the Scriptural chronological order of end time events in the following post, to correct the record.
 

Quasar93

 

Of course you are free to believe as you wish. Trouble is your convictions are so entrenched you are blind to the entire truth of the whole of scripture. Initially Jesus only came to the Jews and then sent the disciples to preach His word to everyone. We are taught by Paul that Gentiles were grafted into the Jews and all are now one in Christ. This means we all share in all that Jesus said about everything in scripture. Paul was speaking to Thessalonians when he said the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to Him only occurs after the beast is revealed, just as Jesus said in Matt 24. To separate the Jews from Gentiles is anti-scriptural.

The order of the end of the age will be just as Jesus said:

Beginning of Sorrows (First Half of the Week)

A of D (Middle of the Week)

Great Tribulation (Second Half, slightly less than 3.5 years)

The Sign of His Coming

His Appearing 

The Gathering of the Elect (in conjunction with the Sign and the Appearing)

Wrath of God (Day of the Lord, Wrath of the Lamb)

That is the true order of the last week, no other order is possible.

In my opinion, from what I see in scripture, the beast will rise right at the beginning of the last week. He will be slain and then resurrected in power, confirm some covenant with many, Jews and Arab nations, and protect Israel while the Temple is constructed. Obviously the Temple must stand by the midpoint. Obviously it will take some period of time for construction and dedication and sanctification.

There is no pretrib 'rapture'. You don't have to believe that, but you really should. You'll see. The beast is nearly here.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

As you can see, your assessment is exactly what I have been posting all along.  It would be delightful to stop arguing with people who are unable to concede the scriptural facts I post about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church that refutes their false views.

 

Quasar93

Yes. You have proven there is a gathering of the elect. I have not seen you post any explicit scripture showing the gathering occurs before the last week begins. There are two instances of the timing of the gathering of the elect extant, Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2, both showing the the only timing of the only gathering of the elect explicitly stated in scripture. Please post explicit scripture proving a pretrib timing or more than one gathering.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. 
 

What does one do in a case like this? It's hard to fathom this passage has been examined by whoever wrote the above. Quasar, I don't think you actually wrote the above statement but you did post it so I can only assume you believe. The conclusion is false as it does not fit the facts of the passage, to wit;

Verse 1 links forever the day of the Lord and the gathering of the elect.

Verse 2 says, don't listen to any other voice on this, I'm about to set the record straight.

Verse 3 unequivocally sets the timing of the day, only AFTER the defection and the revealing of the beast, which occurs at the midpoint.

Verse 4 describes the act that reveals the beast.

Verse 5 calls them to remembrance Paul already told them this previously.

Verse 6 tells the Thessalonians, and us, the revealing of the beast is what is withholding the day of the Lord and the gathering together to Him.

Verse 7 from the Greek actually reads, "Just hold on until he emerges from the middle." As written this verse iterates the previous idea in verse 6 enforcing the idea verse 6 truth will be unchanging until the proper time.

Verse 8 foretells the destruction of the beast.

Thessalonians were concerned they missed the day of the Lord. Paul then assures them they did not. When given the chance to declare a pretrib gathering, why did Paul state that day will not arrive until the beast sits in the Temple declaring himself to be god?

2 Thess 2:3 clearly states the gathering occurs after the revealing (occurring at the midpoint), how then does anyone conclude the gathering occurs before this? 

[brotherdon]

10 hours ago, ForHisGlory37 said:

I think that saying was true when Jesus came the first time to die on the cross for us.  He came as a Savior.  But when Jesus comes back the second time, He will be coming back not as a Lamb, but as Judge.  That is why He called us to be holy because He is Holy. 

The first will be last and the last will be first

[Justin Adams]

Cat among the pigeons. I trust the guy I quoted this from (2005) is OK with this. But i have some serious questions for EVERYBODY.

The False expectation of a 7 year tribulation comes from the scripture in Daniel 9:27. I wish to prove here, that this entire premise is error and cannot be used to formulate this proposition! Those who preach a 7 year tribulation, have surgically removed a single portion of scripture out of context, and taken an already fulfilled prophecy, (which fortold the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.) and cast it 2,000 years into the future, to promote a false teaching and support their "pre-tribulation" rapture doctrine.

This page is an addition to my main page dealing with the rapture. I believe in a tribulation and the rapture which will follow, that's right, "follow" the tribulation (post-tribulation rapture). This page simply contends with the "7" year tribulation theory built by many modern day preachers.

(Dan 9:24-27)  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  (25)  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (26)  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (27)  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Here is a briefing on the above noted verses in Daniel chapter 9

9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.  

70 weeks (490 years) were determined for the Jews to cease their sins! Daniel's prophecy was written around 600 B.C. and as his prophecy continues, will prophetically point to the exact date of the coming Messiah!

9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

In this verse, we have a time frame of events leading to the time when the Messiah, Jesus Christ, shall come!

The “Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge” illustrates the time frame as:

7 weeks       49  years     for the Restoration of Jerusalem

62 weeks   434  years    from that date to the announcement of the Messiah by John the Baptist

1 week            7 years    for the ministry of John and of Christ to the crucifixion

70 weeks    490 years

The commentators seem to agree that the time frame commences with Artaxerxes around 457-445 BC who gave a decree to Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem.

9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The Messiah is “cut off” and then it talks about a “prince that shall come and destroy the city…”  The scholars all have their formulas for exacting the date of the coming of Jesus Christ through this scripture, but it is certain, that these events were fulfilled with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago!

This is the verse where the Pre-trib teachers destroy Biblical prophecy and force it into a current day event! They make this “prince” to be the antichrist of a future time which is yet to come! From the first half of the verse, which speaks of the death of the Messiah, to the “prince”, they have added (as of today) nearly 2,000 years of time!

Adam Clarke's commentary declares:

And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary - By the “prince” Titus, the son of Vespasian, is plainly intended; and “the people of that prince” are no other than the Romans, who, according to the prophecy, destroyed the sanctuary, hakkodesh, the holy place or temple, and, as a flood, swept away all, till the total destruction of that obstinate people finished the war. (9:26)

These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy prophetic weeks; so that the whole of this prophecy, from the times and corresponding events, has been fulfilled to the very letter.

In my study library, the other Commentators all agree that this Prince is speaking of Vespasian (or his son Titus) and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. (ref. John Gill's Commentary, Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary, Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge and John Wesley).

The following verse is where the Pre-Trib teachers have built the 7 year tribulation!

9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

While each of these commentators differ as to which of the two persons this verse is speaking about that makes the covenant for one week, Jesus the Messiah or Titus, it is clear that the “he” of verse 27 can ONLY be one of these two, and NOT a prophecy of the antichrist 2,000 years later!

How any student of Bible prophecy can take this verse which was fulfilled nearly 2,000 years ago, and throw it into the great Tribulation is beyond my comprehension. These teachers are deceitful in their strategy, but effective to sway the unlearned and those who do not know how to rightly divide the word of God! It is interesting how this scripture in Daniel is so very detailed to give the exact timing of the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the coming of our Lord, and then to the destruction of Jerusalem. Then, according to those who teach the 7 year tribulation, the scripture silently projects the final "week" over 2,000 years into the future without any reference to the missing 2,000 + years! Assuming Artaxerxes gave his order in the year 457 B.C., and today's date of 2005 A.D., the 70 weeks (490 years) prophecy has, to date, become a 2,462 year prophecy (or 351 + weeks and still counting)! Doesn't this seem suspicious to you? I contend, in agreement with Adam Clarke, that the 70 weeks are a fulfilled prophecy.

"These seven years, added to the four hundred and eighty-three, complete the four hundred and ninety years, or seventy (70) prophetic weeks; so that the whole of this prophecy, from the times and corresponding events, has been fulfilled to the very letter." Adam Clarke 

The Scholars Commentaries have much detail to write about these verses in Daniel chapter 9. But the clear verdict, is that they all agree that the prophecy is complete! The only varience, is the question as to whether the scripture was speaking of Jesus, or Titus in verse 27. If you wish to dig deeper, you can download the Bible program with these commentators at http://www.e-sword.net

John Gill's Commentary

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; the daily sacrifice of the Jews, and all their other offerings; and which was literally fulfilled "in the half part" of this week, as it may be rendered; towards the close of the latter half of it, when the city of Jerusalem, being closely besieged by Titus, what through the closeness of the siege, the divisions of the people, and the want both of time and men, and beasts to offer, the daily sacrifice ceased, as Josephus says, to the great grief of the people; nor have the Jews, ever since the destruction of their city and temple, offered any sacrifice, esteeming it unlawful so to do in a strange land

Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible

He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease - The word "he," in this place, refers to the Messiah, if the interpretation of the former part of the verse is correct, for there can be no doubt that it is the same person who is mentioned in the phrase "he shall confirm the covenant with many.

Jamieson, Faussett and Brown Commentary

Dan 9:27 - he shall confirm the covenant--Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him also elsewhere. Isa_42:6, "I will give thee for a covenant of the people" (that is, He in whom the covenant between Israel and God is personally expressed); compare Luk_22:20, "The new testament in My blood"; Mal_3:1, "the angel of the covenant"; Jer_31:31-34, describes the Messianic covenant in full.

Matthew Henry's Commentary of the Whole Bible

(note: Matthew Henry's study places the end of the 490 years between the hour that Christ died, which agrees with his opinion, to 37 years after the death of Christ!

(The hour of Christ's death)

The learned Mr. Poole, in his Latin Synopsis, has a vast and most elaborate collection of what has been said, pro and con, concerning the different beginnings of these weeks, with which the learned may entertain themselves. [2.] Concerning the termination of them; and here likewise interpreters are not agreed. Some make them to end at the death of Christ, and think the express words of this famous prophecy will warrant us to conclude that from this very hour when Gabriel spoke to Daniel, at the time of the evening oblation, to the hour when Christ died, which was towards evening too, it was exactly 490 years; and I am willing enough to be of that opinion.

(3 1/2 yrs after the death of Christ)

But others think, because it is said that in the midst of the weeks (that is, the last of the seventy weeks) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, they end three years and a half after the death of Christ, when the Jews having rejected the gospel, the apostles turned to the Gentiles. But those who make them to end precisely at the death of Christ read it thus, “He shall make strong the testament to the many; the last seven, or the last week, yea, half that seven, or half that week (namely, the latter half, the three years and a half which Christ spent in his public ministry), shall bring to an end sacrifice and oblation.”

(37 years after the death of Christ)

Others make these 490 years to end with the destruction of Jerusalem, about thirty-seven years after the death of Christ, because these seventy weeks are said to be determined upon the people of the Jews and the holy city; and much is said here concerning the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. [3.] Concerning the division of them into seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks, and one week; and the reason of this is as hard to account for as any thing else. In the first seven weeks, or forty-nine years, the temple and city were built; and in the last single week Christ preached his gospel, by which the Jewish economy was taken down, and the foundations were laid of the gospel city and temple, which were to be built upon the ruins of the former.

Conclusion

Identifying the 70th week as the Great Tribulation of a future date, was not even an option in Henry's study nor by any other noted scholar in his day! It is a Modern Day teaching!)

I trust that the Tribulation period is not a clear cut 7 Year period. The Great Tribulation does not have an exact, determinable, beginning date, which begins at the rapture of the church with the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and their enemies as pre-tribbers teach!  I do not anticipate a "covenent" being made by the anti-christ that would start a 7 year agreement which would then be broken after 3 1/2 years as many teachers declare. I contend that Daniel chapter 9 is NOT a prophecy for end times events! It is a fulfilled prophecy!

Although I agree that the scriptures do show a 3 1/2 year period in Rev. 11:3, I contend that the 7 year tribulation has no scriptural support to give it credence as being such a major doctrine it has become and believed by many Christians today!

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id234.htm

[Diaste]

9 minutes ago, Davida said:

Perhaps it is a reading comprehension issue- don't tell me what I mean when you clearly don't have a clue & falsely represent my post  and make false accusations. In the first place I was referencing  Quasar93's post & quoting his words.

It is obvious to me that "the first of two comings"  means THE first of  - ONLY TWO.  Obviously, that was not referring to 3 comings- because that was explained it meant two times Jesus appears and the first time His feet do not touch the ground. If you don't accept the explanation I can only assume you just want to fabricate reasons to make false accusations against others in this thread & print in gigantic font.

The "catching away of the church"

At the rapture, the feet of the Lord Jesus does not touch the ground as the scripture tells us, He comes from heaven and meets the Church in the air. As Paul tells us " THEREFORE, Encourage one another with these words"  But you guys instead of doing  as Paul says -  you choose to attack others & pat each other on the back for it. 

1 Thess 4:16-17…"16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.… "

Here is a teaching by Pastor John MacArthur on "The Catching away of the Church" I post this for others as I'm very certain you or the other detractors will not bother read it.

https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/1323/the-catching-away-of-the-church

I have to agree with forhisglory. This idea that Jesus 'comes' but doesn't really 'come' is very odd. It's like seeing relatives, who you know are coming at some point, pull up to the curb in front of your house but not get out. Your kids look out the window and say, "Grandma and Grandpa are here!"

You look out the window and deadpan, "No, they aren't here unless their feet touch the ground."

The kids would think your were off your rocker.

[Diaste]

53 minutes ago, Davida said:

 

It is obvious to me that "the first of two comings"  means THE first of  - ONLY TWO.  Obviously, that was not referring to 3 comings- because that was explained it meant two times Jesus appears and the first time His feet do not touch the ground.

Well, the first time Jesus showed up his feet did indeed touch the ground. For over 30 years his feet touched the ground, daily. So what is it you're getting at?

 

If you don't accept the explanation I can only assume you just want to fabricate reasons to make false accusations against others in this thread.

Nice. You and quasar accuse almost as much as anyone I've seen in this forum, particularly in this thread.

 

[Diaste]

2 minutes ago, Davida said:

It is odd to you because  because you ignore this 1Thess 4: scripture because it doesn't fit in with your preconceived notions. I believe it word for word what it tells us. I do not add or subtract to the scriptures.

1 Thess 4:16-17…"16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds-- to meet the Lord in the air.

And so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.… "

My, I don't doubt Jesus comes and we meet him in the air. That's a fact no one I know ever refutes. The problem is pretrib says this is not a 'coming'. When clearly Jesus has to 'come' and meet believers in the air.

We are disputing the logic of the pretrib position here, not the facts. Hard to believe you complain others have trouble with comprehension.