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2 hours ago, brotherdon said:

The first will be last and the last will be first

What does that have to do with how Jesus is coming back? 

Luke 17:33 Whosever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whosever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

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The point is that the Lord is here now .... He is omnipotent

He appears and disappears at will, but is still here all of the time

Heaven is a condition that is unseen by earth dwellers

So when He is ready He will call His own and then bring the tribulation period of the 70th week decreed for Israel upon the earth

.... and He will be involved all of the time, but not seen until the end

Then He will appear upon the earth and all will see Him at end of the tribulation period

So the argument about His coming is just a short sighted idea .... He is already present

The idea that Jesus is somehow not involved all of the time is a farce

 

 

Edited by Daniel 11:36
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1 hour ago, Davida said:

1 Thess 4:16-17…"16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds-- to meet the Lord in the air.

And so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.… "

Yes, Davida those are God's Word, but you must take into consideration ALL the other scriptures regarding this time.  Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; Line upon line, line upon line; Here a little, and there a little. 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our LORD Jesus AND by our gather (one event) together unto Him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the DAY of Christ is at hand, let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION: who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Luke 21: 12-13 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prison, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.  And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

Mark 13: 4-27 

Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21: 7-36

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:

15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

See, Davida, I did not subtract or add.  I am merely quoting from Scripture, precept upon precept, line upon line.  And I don't listen to men's opinions.  I test the scriptures, and read them like the Bereans.

Edited by ForHisGlory37
forgot to add the scripture
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37 minutes ago, Davida said:

No that is a another fabrication.  You have cherry picked scripture and ignore what does not fit with your opinions and misapply other scripture. I would presume it is an example of those that do that do not belong & fellowship at a church or have a Pastor and they have not been taught how to properly read and study the Bible. Those that don't apply proper exegesis & hermeneutics are difficult to have a coherent rational biblical discussion with. Shiloh already made it perfectly clear that those that believe the scripture is indicating pre-trib are perfectly prepared should it not be the case.  But opposing people try to make it out as some sort of heresy or false teaching and it is not , that is not what a heresy or false teaching is, it is merely a difference of opinion - period.  We all will find out in good time. Good day!

Davida, now here you are again attacking the person assuming something you don't know, you are the one presuming "I would presume it is an example of those that do that do not belong and fellowship at a church or have a Pastor and they have not been taught how to properly read and study the Bible."  That is not becoming of a brother in Christ.  How do you know that?  I belong and fellowship at a church, I also lead worship, I am currently leading a bible study with a woman in the study of Genesis.  I am not boasting here, merely pointing out that you don't know that those of us who hold against the Pre-trib rapture is not what you presume. 

Argue with the Word of God, don't attack the person who is your brother or sister in Christ!

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7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Of course you are free to believe as you wish. Trouble is your convictions are so entrenched you are blind to the entire truth of the whole of scripture. Initially Jesus only came to the Jews and then sent the disciples to preach His word to everyone. We are taught by Paul that Gentiles were grafted into the Jews and all are now one in Christ. This means we all share in all that Jesus said about everything in scripture. Paul was speaking to Thessalonians when he said the coming of Jesus and our gathering together to Him only occurs after the beast is revealed, just as Jesus said in Matt 24. To separate the Jews from Gentiles is anti-scriptural.

The order of the end of the age will be just as Jesus said:

Beginning of Sorrows (First Half of the Week)

A of D (Middle of the Week)

Great Tribulation (Second Half, slightly less than 3.5 years)

The Sign of His Coming

His Appearing 

The Gathering of the Elect (in conjunction with the Sign and the Appearing)

Wrath of God (Day of the Lord, Wrath of the Lamb)

That is the true order of the last week, no other order is possible.

In my opinion, from what I see in scripture, the beast will rise right at the beginning of the last week. He will be slain and then resurrected in power, confirm some covenant with many, Jews and Arab nations, and protect Israel while the Temple is constructed. Obviously the Temple must stand by the midpoint. Obviously it will take some period of time for construction and dedication and sanctification.

There is no pretrib 'rapture'. You don't have to believe that, but you really should. You'll see. The beast is nearly here.

The above views are thoroughly refuted in the following Scriptural facts from which there are no options:

The original written text of 2 Thess.2:3 by the Apostle Paul. in the 1st century; to the Septuagint; to Jerome, who translated it into the Latin Vulgate, in the 4th century: through the first seven English translated Bibles, into the 17th century: Was written as follows:
 
2 Thess.2:3 "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the DEPARTURE occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."
 
VERSE 3 REINFORCED BY VERSE 7:
 
2 Thess.2:7 "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one [The One Body of Christ, His Church] who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."

THE CHURCH DEPARTS IN VERSE 3, AND IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, IN VERSE 7

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].  As the above Scriptures clearly reveal. the DEPARTURE of the Church will occur BEFORE the man of lawlessness, the Antichrist, who triggers the Day of the Lord. in Dan.9:27, takes place.

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The Antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The Antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!
 
The pre-trib rapture of the Church views posted above fully endorsed by the following esteemed men of God from every Christian teaching:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.
 
Quasar93
Edited by Quasar93
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Yes, well those people will have to explain how they led Yeshua's little ones astray. I do NOT want to be in their shoes!

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When Jesus appeared to Saul, then to be Paul, is this considered a coming of Christ.  He was here on Earth and talking to Saul.

Wow and some will say that the Rapture is a 2nd Coming when Christ is not on the Earth.

The two comings are Christ the suffering servant and then Christ the King of Kings and the Lord of Lord's.

Scripture does not say Christ the Bridegroom is a coming, but a retrieval.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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49 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:
In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.
 
Quasar93

Thank you so much Quasar94  for posting this.   Departure first.  

Edited by Mary8
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1 hour ago, Quasar93 said:

The above views are thoroughly refuted in the following Scriptural facts from which there are no options:

The original written text of 2 Thess.2:3 by the Apostle Paul. in the 1st century; to the Septuagint; to Jerome, who translated it into the Latin Vulgate, in the 4th century: through the first seven English translated Bibles, into the 17th century: Was written as follows:
 
2 Thess.2:3 "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the DEPARTURE occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."
 
VERSE 3 REINFORCED BY VERSE 7:
 
2 Thess.2:7 "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one [The One Body of Christ, His Church] who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way."

THE CHURCH DEPARTS IN VERSE 3, AND IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, IN VERSE 7

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].  As the above Scriptures clearly reveal. the DEPARTURE of the Church will occur BEFORE the man of lawlessness, the Antichrist, who triggers the Day of the Lord. in Dan.9:27, takes place.

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The Antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The Antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!
 
The pre-trib rapture of the Church views posted above fully endorsed by the following esteemed men of God from every Christian teaching:

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.
 
Quasar93

And once again ignoring the clear order of the last week as given by the most high. All interpretation of the last week must fall under the outline in Matt 24. I don't care if Jesus was speaking to Jews, Huns, Romans or visigoths, end of the age truth transcends race and religion as the most high has spoken.

I have already shown how the term apostasia is defined by using the definition for aphistemi. Aphistemi does indeed mean departure, but from an ideology, not from one place to another. 

So even if we used the incorrect definition it still would not hold any water. Besides hanging the prophetic hat on a weak hook, pretrib must ignore dozens of examples in scripture of just how our Father deals with his children.

You go ahead and rely on the wisdom of men. Find your comfort there if you wish. I hope you repent of this folly.

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2 hours ago, Davida said:

No that is a another fabrication.  You have cherry picked scripture and ignore what does not fit with your opinions and misapply other scripture. I would presume it is an example of those that do that do not belong & fellowship at a church or have a Pastor and they have not been taught how to properly read and study the Bible. Those that don't apply proper exegesis & hermeneutics are difficult to have a coherent rational biblical discussion with. Shiloh already made it perfectly clear that those that believe the scripture is indicating pre-trib are perfectly prepared should it not be the case.  But opposing people try to make it out as some sort of heresy or false teaching and it is not , that is not what a heresy or false teaching is, it is merely a difference of opinion - period.  We all will find out in good time. Good day!

Wow. Well good luck. Heed the call to repentance. Prepare your heart. The beast is coming. I guarantee you will see him, and more.

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