Some encouraging Scriptures about the rapture

[OldCoot]

On 7/8/2019 at 3:42 AM, Diaste said:

I have no idea what that means. We are taking about an event that is not going to happen and I wish that every believer is ready to confront the reality.

There will be no pretrib rapture. No bodily resurrection till after the A of D for those in Christ. It's not great news but it's the truth. Trust in the Lord to watch over us as we overcome the enemy.

And so, Brothers and Sisters, comfort one another with those words.  Y'all get to face the calamities that are coming upon the earth and go thru some version of protestant purgatory to prove yourselves worthy.  Boy, that makes one want to get up in the morning and proclaim the Lord to a dying world.

We overcome the enemy?  Really?

Might want to re-read Daniel 7 again along with various passages in Revelation.   The saints don't overcome the enemy, the enemy overcomes the saints.  Only after the Lord overcomes the evil one will the saints be given the Kingdom. They don't overcome the enemy and take the kingdom. They don't create the Kingdom.  They are given the Kingdom.

 

[OldCoot]

On 7/12/2019 at 4:00 AM, Diaste said:

Any who are slain for the Word and their Testimony must be put to death by the enemy of God. God isn't killing them. It makes little sense to think the Lamb or God is putting their own martyrs to the sword. Based on that alone the wrath of the Lamb isn't happening from the beginning of the final week.

Let's see.... was not the wrath of Yahweh revealed on the world during the Great Flood?  Was not the wrath of Yahweh revealed against Sodom and Gomorrah?   Yet the first actual mention of the word "wrath" was not till the end of Genesis.

Also, was it not at the direction of the Lord the conquering and subjugation of Israel by the Assyrians?  Yet it was not the Lord who actually did the work. The Lord uses even secular and evil people to accomplish what He has stated will be. Nebuchadnezer was certainly not one of the elect, but he sure accomplished what the Lord said would happen to Judea.  And many in Canaan who were faithful to the Lord suffered and died under the hand of the conquerers which were allowed to do what they did by the Lord.

The events of the seals will not happen if Yeshua does not open them.  Therefore, it is under His authority that the events are allowed to be revealed and occur. In a court of Law, that would mean He is the one who actually was responsible for the events even though He allows others to carry out the details.   The saints of that time are not the only ones who will suffer and die.  Many that are not saints will also suffer and die.   It is indeed the wrath of the Lamb that is going on from Seal One.  Those that dwell on the earth finally come to that realization by Seal Six when they say the wrath "has come" (or become known or revealed to them).

And Paul is quite clear in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the "Day of the Lord" will not occur until the departure occurs which happens before the man of sin / antichrist is revealed who arguably is the character referenced in Seal One of Revelation.   He was calming the Thessalonians down because they had been told or a forged letter had been given them that stated they were in the "Day of the Lord".  And Paul had to remind them of what he told them before (see 1 Thessalonians).  Why would they be upset about being in the Day of the Lord unless they were taught by Paul they would be removed from it?  If they had been taught they would go thru that time, why did Paul need to set them straight? 

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by OldCoot

[Diaste]

13 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

And so, Brothers and Sisters, comfort one another with those words.  Y'all get to face the calamities that are coming upon the earth and go thru some version of protestant purgatory to prove yourselves worthy.  Boy, that makes one want to get up in the morning and proclaim the Lord to a dying world.

I admit irony as a way of rebuttal is effective but sarcasm usually means lack of effective argument. As in this case.

The comfort is not in a pretrib rapture avoiding all hardship, but in the sure fact of the resurrection saving the eternal soul of the one in Christ. 

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

And where are these ones who apparently died? Rev 7 explains they are at the throne of God, comforted and exalted because "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

13 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

We overcome the enemy?  Really?

Indeed.

To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God.

To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.

To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone inscribed with a new name, known only to the one who receives it.

To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:

And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery —just as I have received authority from My Father. And I will give him the morning star.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

To the angel of the church in Sardis write:

Like them, he who overcomes will be dressed in white. And I will never blot out  his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:

The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” - Rev 2-3

There is a great deal of personal overcoming and victory in view here. Only though the overcoming and victory on an individual level associated with the end of the age hardships, persecution and death, does one receive of the rewards, at the time of the end once one enters the last week. Those who died in Christ before the end begins are assured of resurrection and salvation. The converse is true; those who do not overcome do not share in the rewards of being a pillar, a new name on a white stone, ruling, hidden manna, power, authority, etc.

So then, since this is all true and accurate where would the pretrib doctrine appear? What are the western churches overcoming? The commute? Overbearing supervisors? Slow internet? And just where is the mention of the vast number of pretrib believers that must be there in heaven as exalted saints of the Most High God? I know you are going to say the elders represent the church of the pretrib sect of Christianity. However, they don't seem to share in the promises of Rev 2-3 nor Rev 7:12-17. They did not overcome the many mental and emotional and physical afflictions of Rev 2-3, nor were they martyrs like in Rev 7, nor did they 'love not their lives to death' as in Rev 12.

13 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Might want to re-read Daniel 7 again along with various passages in Revelation.   The saints don't overcome the enemy, the enemy overcomes the saints.  Only after the Lord overcomes the evil one will the saints be given the Kingdom. They don't overcome the enemy and take the kingdom. They don't create the Kingdom.  They are given the Kingdom.

 

All the passages to which you refer speak to a successful prosecution of war against the saints. Or, as in Daniel, the ability to wage war against the saints with no opposition. This is very different than winning a battle or a war. The beast is allowed to fight and campaign against the saints; he is given the ability to make war ongoing, but not win.

None of the passages refer to defeating the saints as that is an impossibility. For Satan or the beast to defeat the saints of the Most High they soul of the saint would be lost; it has nothing to do with the death of the body. Our Father will save our souls. Satan can never defeat God. Death of the body then is victory in Christ in the war against Satan and the beast, as is quite clear from Rev 7.

"The saints don't overcome the enemy," It seems Rev 2-3 refutes that. While the saints only overcome by the blood of the Lamb, credit is given in Rev 2-3 to the individual that follows Christ as a personal decision resulting in overcoming and victory. Same with Rev 12. "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."  This speaks to a personal choice in the midst terrible circumstance which they who do not love their lives overcome the dragon. And how do they overcome the dragon and the ongoing war? By the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. It seems this, "the enemy overcomes the saints" is incorrect.

I would say this is correct, "Only after the Lord overcomes the evil one will the saints be given the Kingdom. They don't overcome the enemy and take the kingdom. They don't create the Kingdom.  They are given the Kingdom.", but not germane.

[OldCoot]

Except those who are saints in the tribulation were not saints at the start of the tribulation period.  Just like the saints of Matthew 27 were not the saints of the church either.

And Paul is very clear that the redeemed associated with the NT church are removed before the man of sin is revealed. Also Isaiah 26 makes it very clear that before the Lord comes out of His place to execute judgement on those who dwell on the earth, that the righteous are hidden away in their chambers, which is a reference to John 14.  Likewise, as has been stated before, Psalms 27 suggests that the righteous are protected in the pavilion of the tabernacle of the Lord during "the" time of trouble, which seems to be the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" referenced by Jeremiah 30.  And Paul wrote that before the "Day of the Lord" would come, the departure would occur and then the man of sin would be revealed, the antichrist/lawless one/the Assyrian/son of perdition.  

The price that is paid by the saints of the tribulation period is a result that they were not saints when the tribulation period started.  The OT saints also were not part of the specific group "the church" that came later.  Likewise, the tribulation saints are not part of the church either. All are redeemed in the same way, by the blood of Messiah, but not all are part of the same group.  The church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3 of Revelation (except the final salutation).   The saints of the OT and the Tribulation period are not promised to reign on the earth along with Messiah with a rod of iron like those redeemed of the church are as per Revelation 2:26-27.  

And getting bogged down in the saints issue of the tribulation period obscures what the tribulation period is all about and designed for. To bring calamity upon those who "dwell on the earth" which in scripture is always a reference to the condemned, and to drive the Hebrew people to the realization that Yeshua is indeed their promised Messiah and to turn to Him, for as Hosea states, He will not return until they acknowledge that offense and turn to Him.  And He affirmed that in Matthew 23.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

Let's see.... was not the wrath of Yahweh revealed on the world during the Great Flood?  Was not the wrath of Yahweh revealed against Sodom and Gomorrah?   Yet the first actual mention of the word "wrath" was not till the end of Genesis.

The Lord explains that the flood came about in sorrow and repentance, not in wrath. 

"6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man,and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." - Gen 6

The Creator said He was sorry twice and literally heartsick, in emotional distress. Not anger, sorrow.

Sodom and Gomorrah was a dispassionate adjudication.

I guess I'm not going to make assumptions and just believe it as written. There is always a good reason why words appear and why some don't. Cause that's what the Word meant to say.

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

Also, was it not at the direction of the Lord the conquering and subjugation of Israel by the Assyrians?  Yet it was not the Lord who actually did the work. The Lord uses even secular and evil people to accomplish what He has stated will be. Nebuchadnezer was certainly not one of the elect, but he sure accomplished what the Lord said would happen to Judea.  And many in Canaan who were faithful to the Lord suffered and died under the hand of the conquerers which were allowed to do what they did by the Lord.

Not proof of anything resembling the concept in question.

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

The events of the seals will not happen if Yeshua does not open them.  Therefore, it is under His authority that the events are allowed to be revealed and occur. In a court of Law, that would mean He is the one who actually was responsible for the events even though He allows others to carry out the details.   The saints of that time are not the only ones who will suffer and die.  Many that are not saints will also suffer and die.   It is indeed the wrath of the Lamb that is going on from Seal One.  Those that dwell on the earth finally come to that realization by Seal Six when they say the wrath "has come" (or become known or revealed to them).

Of course He is the responsible one. It's our Father's plan. But allowing a thing and actively participating are two different things. As described the wrath of the Lamb is personally active on the part of the Lamb. That is not the case with the preceding events. A closer look at 'has come' reveals it's an arrival, not a realization.

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

And Paul is quite clear in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the "Day of the Lord" will not occur until the departure occurs which happens before the man of sin / antichrist is revealed who arguably is the character referenced in Seal One of Revelation.   He was calming the Thessalonians down because they had been told or a forged letter had been given them that stated they were in the "Day of the Lord".  And Paul had to remind them of what he told them before (see 1 Thessalonians).  Why would they be upset about being in the Day of the Lord unless they were taught by Paul they would be removed from it?  If they had been taught they would go thru that time, why did Paul need to set them straight? 

 

This is supposition, " Why would they be upset about being in the Day of the Lord unless they were taught by Paul they would be removed from it? " as there are other reasons why the Thessalonians would be upset. One could be be they thought they missed His appearance. Why did Paul set them straight? In context Paul equates the gathering with the return of Jesus. If they missed that they would think they were in the very wrath of God they had been taught no believer would endure. 

But go ahead, equate everything with wrath. By that logic wrath is occurring right now as 100,000 believers die every year for their testimony in Jesus and 53 million others die every year. By allowing this it's the responsibility and fault of Jesus. I suppose Jesus had the wheel when that drunk crossed the line and killed a family? Every terrorist attack has the hand print of the Lord on it as well, in that case. But I suppose there is no sense in taking personal responsibility when it can all be blamed on someone else. 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

11 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Except those who are saints in the tribulation were not saints at the start of the tribulation period.  Just like the saints of Matthew 27 were not the saints of the church either.

And Paul is very clear that the redeemed associated with the NT church are removed before the man of sin is revealed. Also Isaiah 26 makes it very clear that before the Lord comes out of His place to execute judgement on those who dwell on the earth, that the righteous are hidden away in their chambers, which is a reference to John 14.  Likewise, as has been stated before, Psalms 27 suggests that the righteous are protected in the pavilion of the tabernacle of the Lord during "the" time of trouble, which seems to be the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" referenced by Jeremiah 30.  And Paul wrote that before the "Day of the Lord" would come, the departure would occur and then the man of sin would be revealed, the antichrist/lawless one/the Assyrian/son of perdition.  

The price that is paid by the saints of the tribulation period is a result that they were not saints when the tribulation period started.  The OT saints also were not part of the specific group "the church" that came later.  Likewise, the tribulation saints are not part of the church either. All are redeemed in the same way, by the blood of Messiah, but not all are part of the same group.  The church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3 of Revelation (except the final salutation).   The saints of the OT and the Tribulation period are not promised to reign on the earth along with Messiah with a rod of iron like those redeemed of the church are as per Revelation 2:26-27.  

And getting bogged down in the saints issue of the tribulation period obscures what the tribulation period is all about and designed for. To bring calamity upon those who "dwell on the earth" which in scripture is always a reference to the condemned, and to drive the Hebrew people to the realization that Yeshua is indeed their promised Messiah and to turn to Him, for as Hosea states, He will not return until they acknowledge that offense and turn to Him.  And He affirmed that in Matthew 23.

Literally meaningless as it's all based on the false premise that wrath equates to the whole of the last week. It does not. You will see, if we are alive at that point in history.

[OldCoot]

1 minute ago, Diaste said:

But go ahead, equate everything with wrath. By that logic wrath is occurring right now as 100,000 believers die every year for their testimony in Jesus and 53 million others die every year

That would be in error.  While the wrath being foisted on the redeemed is of the evil one, unlike where the seals are broken by Messiah, the wrath that the redeemed are suffering under today is not because the Lord is starting events.  It is solely the discretion of the evil one. The primary focus at this time is the redeemed of the church.  The primary focus of the tribulation period is not, as explained in my last post.

It is because the time is short and that calamities are coming upon the condemned that the outpouring of the wrath of the evil one is piled on those who have come to faith in Messiah.  

In either case, the wrath upon the redeemed is solely the discretion of the evil one.  Again, it is not the focus of the tribulation period that is being brought about by the Lord.  The saints part of that period is just a side note.  And not keeping this perspective of the Tribulation period takes away from what the purpose of that period is all about. And its primarily purpose has nothing to do with saints.

[OldCoot]

9 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Literally meaningless as it's all based on the false premise that wrath equates to the whole of the last week. It does not. You will see, if we are alive at that point in history.

That's cool.  I have no problem with you thinking it is all meaningless.  I don't answer to you.  You are just another sinner redeemed by the blood. No better or worse than anyone else.  And you are not the final arbiter of what the scripture says. We have equal standing when it comes to scripture interpretation.    And of these facts, you will see.

But with my analysis of this, I did follow the scripture mandate that any matter has to be supported by both the OT and NT. And for your interpretation of these events to have any standing and be considered by the brethren, you must also adhere to that standard, and I have yet to see that.  

[Mary8]

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

 

And Paul is quite clear in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the "Day of the Lord" will not occur until the departure occurs which happens before the man of sin / antichrist is revealed who arguably is the character referenced in Seal One of Revelation.   He was calming the Thessalonians down because they had been told or a forged letter had been given them that stated they were in the "Day of the Lord".  And Paul had to remind them of what he told them before (see 1 Thessalonians).  Why would they be upset about being in the Day of the Lord unless they were taught by Paul they would be removed from it?  If they had been taught they would go thru that time, why did Paul need to set them straight? 

 

The above quoted is part of what OldCoot responded.   (I added the Bold to emphasize the question Coot wisely asks.)  

[JustPassingThru]

This has already been posted:

These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:14 ASV

Notice, they washed their robes...,

Whereas we, the church, it is Jesus who has washed us:

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;  And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:4,5

Two completely different groups of people, 

also,

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation,  Rev 7:13, 14

Which means John didn't know who they were, John definitely knew who the Church was Rev 2 &3, but these people he didn't, ...it's not the Church!