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Some encouraging Scriptures about the rapture


Mary8

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On 7/14/2019 at 7:31 AM, OldCoot said:

Except those who are saints in the tribulation were not saints at the start of the tribulation period.  Just like the saints of Matthew 27 were not the saints of the church either.

And Paul is very clear that the redeemed associated with the NT church are removed before the man of sin is revealed. Also Isaiah 26 makes it very clear that before the Lord comes out of His place to execute judgement on those who dwell on the earth, that the righteous are hidden away in their chambers, which is a reference to John 14.  Likewise, as has been stated before, Psalms 27 suggests that the righteous are protected in the pavilion of the tabernacle of the Lord during "the" time of trouble, which seems to be the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" referenced by Jeremiah 30.  And Paul wrote that before the "Day of the Lord" would come, the departure would occur and then the man of sin would be revealed, the antichrist/lawless one/the Assyrian/son of perdition.  

The price that is paid by the saints of the tribulation period is a result that they were not saints when the tribulation period started.  The OT saints also were not part of the specific group "the church" that came later.  Likewise, the tribulation saints are not part of the church either. All are redeemed in the same way, by the blood of Messiah, but not all are part of the same group.  The church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3 of Revelation (except the final salutation).   The saints of the OT and the Tribulation period are not promised to reign on the earth along with Messiah with a rod of iron like those redeemed of the church are as per Revelation 2:26-27.  

And getting bogged down in the saints issue of the tribulation period obscures what the tribulation period is all about and designed for. To bring calamity upon those who "dwell on the earth" which in scripture is always a reference to the condemned, and to drive the Hebrew people to the realization that Yeshua is indeed their promised Messiah and to turn to Him, for as Hosea states, He will not return until they acknowledge that offense and turn to Him.  And He affirmed that in Matthew 23.

Hey OC,

" The church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3 of Revelation (except the final salutation)."

Well, that statement is not correct.

In the Book of Revelation, the Greek word "ekklesia", which is translated "church" is ONLY associated with the names of the seven churches in the Letters to the Seven Churches. The universal church isn't mentioned at all by using that word. 

However, believers are mentioned and are referred to as "bond servants" and "saints", and these references are found throughout the book.

In 1Thes 4:16-17, the most famous rapture passage of all, the word "church" is not found. Does this mean the church is not raptured?

The word "church" is completely absent from the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John and Jude. 

Does this mean that these entire books of the Bible do not apply to the church?

The word "church" is absent from one location in Rev where we would most expect to find it: before the throne in heaven in Rev 4-5. And, not only is the word church absent in these chapters, but so are all mentions of saints or bond servants. 

"Bond servants" is used of the members of the church in Thyatira (Rev 2:20) and in terms of the martyrs who die at the hand of the harlot (Rev 19:2)

Rev 1:1 and 15:3 makes reference to John and Moses being bond servants. Perhaps bond servants are the most faithful of Jesus' servants.

"Saints" are used a dozen times between Rev 1 and Rev 19:

The antichrist makes war with the saints (Rev 13:7)

Captivity and death by the sword will require perseverance and faith of the saints (Rev 13:10)

Avoiding the mark of the beast (Rev 14:11-12)

Saints are more than tribulation saints, they are the complete Bride of Christ:

"Let us rejoice and be glad and give glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His Bride has made herself ready" It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints"...Rev 19:7-8

If the word "saints" in Rev 4-19 only refers to Trib Saints, then only THEIR righteous acts would adorn the "Bride of Christ". Obviously no one believes that.

One should quit trying to "invent" ways that the church is present in that heavenly scene, or not present in other heavenly scenes, to justify its contention that the rapture occurs in Rev 4:1.

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The removal or catching away may not be seen by all, or even any, but several are going to notice that there has been the disappearance of several folks.   I believe the young children will be gone as well.  Nothing definitive to support that in scripture is but the fact that they are not spiritually accountable and what the purpose of the GT is all about.

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33 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hey OC,

" The church is not mentioned again after Chapter 3 of Revelation (except the final salutation)."

Well, that statement is not correct.

In the Book of Revelation, the Greek word "ekklesia", which is translated "church" is ONLY associated with the names of the seven churches in the Letters to the Seven Churches. The universal church isn't mentioned at all by using that word. 

However, believers are mentioned and are referred to as "bond servants" and "saints", and these references are found throughout the book.

In 1Thes 4:16-17, the most famous rapture passage of all, the word "church" is not found. Does this mean the church is not raptured?

The word "church" is completely absent from the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John and Jude. 

Does this mean that these entire books of the Bible do not apply to the church?

The word "church" is absent from one location in Rev where we would most expect to find it: before the throne in heaven in Rev 4-5. And, not only is the word church absent in these chapters, but so are all mentions of saints or bond servants. 

"Bond servants" is used of the members of the church in Thyatira (Rev 2:20) and in terms of the martyrs who die at the hand of the harlot (Rev 19:2)

Rev 1:1 and 15:3 makes reference to John and Moses being bond servants. Perhaps bond servants are the most faithful of Jesus' servants.

"Saints" are used a dozen times between Rev 1 and Rev 19:

The antichrist makes war with the saints (Rev 13:7)

Captivity and death by the sword will require perseverance and faith of the saints (Rev 13:10)

Avoiding the mark of the beast (Rev 14:11-12)

Saints are more than tribulation saints, they are the complete Bride of Christ:

"Let us rejoice and be glad and give glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His Bride has made herself ready" It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints"...Rev 19:7-8

If the word "saints" in Rev 4-19 only refers to Trib Saints, then only THEIR righteous acts would adorn the "Bride of Christ". Obviously no one believes that.

One should quit trying to "invent" ways that the church is present in that heavenly scene, or not present in other heavenly scenes, to justify its contention that the rapture occurs in Rev 4:1.

You make a GREAT point Joe....”Saints” means holy or holy ones .....SO YES, it is not limited to just Trib Saints, but I believe it can mean just them,  but absolutely also has to include the Church and Jewish remnant, like the 144,000 and 1/3 Jews who flee to Petra. Anyone HOLY....

Now the question becomes, how do you interpret which one in these Rev passages?  The passage you cited in Rev 19 has to be the Church and not Trib Saints, but th3 passage you cited in Rev 13.......can it mean Church? (What you think) or can it mean Trib believers (Pre Trib people think)? 

Dont you think it is somewhat subjective as to how one interprets?  Pre weathers want it to mean church and pre tribbers want it to mean Trib Saints. Who is right? 

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9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Your instincts are 100 percent correct here, but the "TRADITIONS OF MEN" are powerful, they bind us to certain thought patterns. So let's go through the evidence, which the Lord has led me to do in every situation nowadays, let's quit following the Men's Traditions. He told the Pharisees that was their problem also !! THE EVIDENCE :

1.) It's a large group of people from ALL NATIONS. 2.) Jesus tells the Martyrs under the altar in the 5th Seal they have to wait on their brothers to be killed in like manner as they were. 3.) Those who refused the Mark of the Beast are raised and Judged in Rev. 20:4 and serve with Christ ON EARTH for 1000 years.

So it seems all odds point against these being Saints from the 70th Week Tribulation. So what gives ? Why does everyone think these Saints come from the 70th week tribulation ? Because we try to PIGEONHOLE God's vocabulary. Just because Jesus said the 70th Week troubles would be the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES via how troublesome they are, via the number of people killed etc. etc., people try to then say God can't also refer to the Greatest ever Time Period of Troubles, which is the Church Age Tribulation that lasted some 2000 odd years, compared with the 70th week tribulation that will last 7 years. So those mentioned in Rev. 7:9-17 indeed came out of the Great {2000 year Church Age} Tribulation Period as in 2000>7. It's the only thing that actually FITS/Makes sense. Thus they came out of ALL Nations, Peoples etc. etc. And they are MANY, MANY, MANY, in number. They are seen in Heaven, where the Church was seen in Rev. 4 and 5 before the Seals were opened. 

No one is going to Heaven after the Rapture until after the 70th week is over, and then they don't even go to Heaven at that time, Rev. 20:4 says they live on earth with Jesus for 1000 years. Thus the Bride goes back to Heaven, no doubt to finish off New Jerusalem, thus as it descends its called the Bride of Christ, no doubt we are in it as it descends. 

Those people seen in Rev. 7 are the Church in Heaven. Not the Tribulation Saints. They came out of the Church Age Tribulation. GREAT can have more than one meaning. Greatest TROUBLES............AND Greatest Period of Time. We can't Pigeonhole God's vocabulary. The one MAKES PERFECT SENSE, the other one makes NO SENSE. Jesus told us we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION !!

Thus THEY came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age Tribulation.

I hope everyone agrees, the Church had Tribulation, CONTINUALLY !! 

I have held this position for a number of years.....as you know, most pre tribbers seem to NEED them to be the Trib Saints. You are an exception RM. 

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8 hours ago, Spock said:

You make a GREAT point Joe....”Saints” means holy or holy ones .....SO YES, it is not limited to just Trib Saints, but I believe it can mean just them,  but absolutely also has to include the Church and Jewish remnant, like the 144,000 and 1/3 Jews who flee to Petra. Anyone HOLY....

Now the question becomes, how do you interpret which one in these Rev passages?  The passage you cited in Rev 19 has to be the Church and not Trib Saints, but th3 passage you cited in Rev 13.......can it mean Church? (What you think) or can it mean Trib believers (Pre Trib people think)? 

Dont you think it is somewhat subjective as to how one interprets?  Pre weathers want it to mean church and pre tribbers want it to mean Trib Saints. Who is right? 

Hi Spock,

Lots of good questions to ponder. Now the `wife` in Rev. 19: 7 are the people of Israel who receive the Lord when He comes to deliver them. They have been promised this for centuries. They have made themselves ready by their righteous acts. Note the Body of Christ is righteous by Christ`s sacrifice. Big difference there. We are the Body, (closest relationship) and Israel is the wife, the bride, as many Old Testament scriptures say. They have a different inheritance than us, but all will be in God`s great kingdom, just ruling in different realms.

regards, Marilyn. 

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10 hours ago, Spock said:

Thanks M.,

My wife also believes there will be many in the GT who won’t take the mark and probably die because NOW they will believe the angels going around the world preaching the gospel of the kingdom. I guess this goes along with what you are saying too. 

I just have had a hard time thinking there would be a multitude this immense coming out of the GT, so for a long time I viewed the great multitude in Rev 7:9-17 as being the RAPTURED church. I know for sure that will be a great multitude from every nation. 

Hi Spock,

The reality is that the Laodicean group will go into the trib, and that is a huge number for a start. The Philadelphia group are a smaller number of faithful followers and they will join with the rest of the Body coming with the Lord.

Also the population numbers are billions, and multiplying all the time. As in former wars, there are not many atheists, so in the trib, people will have to address the reality of severe hardship & lawlessness abounding. A very frightening time and will escalate fast.

regards, Marilyn.

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10 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey Marv or anyone, 

what do you say about the position that God’s wrath does not begin until the 6th seal?  Do you believe God’s wrath is unleashed on seals 1-4 despite what is said in rev 6:17?

if the seals begin in the 70th week, why do you think the entire 7 years is God’s wrath if wrath doesn’t begin until seal 6? 

Thanks

spock

 

Hi Spock,

Love all your questions and glad you included `anyone.` So I see two big misunderstandings people have -

1. Thinking there is ONLY a specific day of God`s wrath.

The word `Day` in Gk, means a time period as well as a specific day. A poor example would be - Christmas time, (putting up lights, trees, preparing presents, etc) and then the specific Christmas day. We call both Christmas.

 

2. Thinking that the English word `wrath` is the ONLY word for that time.

THE GREAT TRIBULATION

Invariably scripture connects this time with tribulation and suffer­ing. Zephehiah (1:14-18) provides one of the most concise descrip­tive accounts, as being more severe than any other in history. This is confirmed by Jeremiah (30:7), Daniel (12:1) and Joel (2:2). Jesus Himself warned “For there shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning to this time, no nor ever shall be.” Matt. 24:21. John succinctly epitomises it as “the Day of the wrath of God”. Rev. 6:15-17. Greek ‘Orge’ expresses wrath, anger, vengeance with connotations of punishment. To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. (Isa. 26:21).

(ref: `Fires before the dawn.` A. Gardiner)

regards, Marilyn.

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10 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey Msrv, how do you explain rev 6:17?

15Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usc from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17For the great day of Theird wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

 

Spock: how can you say the wrath doesnt begin until after the 4th trumpet based on this comment by Jesus after the 6th seal? 

The Wrath of God is encompassed in the 7th Seal, which is after the 6th Seal where, v 6:17 is.  Following the 6th Seal, is where the Wrath of God is.  Then what is within the 7th Seal,  All the Trumpets and Bowl judgments.  So the Wrath of God begins somewhere near the end of the Trumpets.  Woe, Woe, Woe to the inhabitants of the Earth.  The First Woe is the 5th Trumpet, the Second Woe is the 6th Trumpet, and the Third Woe is within the 7th Trumpet which are the Bowl judgments.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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5 hours ago, Abdicate said:

You attack and make up names and yet, I provided scripture over and over and over. You don't want to go in the rapture, God will gladly oblige. He's a Gentleman you read the word of God. He protects the righteous Who trust Him and obey Him (Psa 91) and causes the wicked to pay for their choices. Salvation is by faith, healing is by faith, believing the Father is by faith, I'm going out on a limb that the rapture is by faith... though Jesus is speaking about healing, this certainly applies:

“Go your way. Let it be done for you as you have believed.”

I don't know about the first two sentences in the above post but the rest certainly seems in keeping with the character of our Father; except for the idea of a prophesied event occurring solely based on the faith of the hearer.

I'm convinced that as long as another violation of precepts, tenets, axioms and warnings of God do not exist in an individuals heart and mind it's not going to matter what an individual believes about the timing of the gathering of the elect; every member of the elect will be gathered to Jesus Christ based only on the persons belief in the salvation power of the blood of Christ and nothing else. The gathering is going to happen when our Father determines it will happen.  No individual or corporate dogma has any bearing on the fact of timing nor whether a person is resurrected or translated, per other restrictions such as adding or subtracting from the words of the prophecy of the Revelation of Jesus Christ as given to Him by the Most High God, our heavenly Father.

The danger in my mind is one of trust, truth and spiritual preparedness for individuals, families and congregational groups. Are you ready to face the beast if and when your dogmatic position is found to be erroneous? Will it prove difficult or impossible to adjust one's perception when a pretrib gathering does not happen and they find themselves in a new reality?

In fact there is no passage in scripture which speaks to a pretrib rapture without torturing the text. I believe I have pointed this out on many occasions.

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On 7/14/2019 at 8:59 AM, OldCoot said:

That's cool.  I have no problem with you thinking it is all meaningless.  I don't answer to you.  You are just another sinner redeemed by the blood. No better or worse than anyone else.  And you are not the final arbiter of what the scripture says. We have equal standing when it comes to scripture interpretation.    And of these facts, you will see.

But with my analysis of this, I did follow the scripture mandate that any matter has to be supported by both the OT and NT. And for your interpretation of these events to have any standing and be considered by the brethren, you must also adhere to that standard, and I have yet to see that.  

It's not all meaningless. Conclusions are when based on false truth.

I agree there should be more than one witness for truth to be established. It's arbitrary that you choose the NT and OT as the only valid witnesses to anything. The NT was written by a number of witnesses to Christ, His acts and His words. Since the OT is the NT hidden, and the NT is the OT revealed they are the very same conceptually if one has insight. For any witness to be true it cannot be contradicted by another. The preponderance of evidence in the NT speaks to one, and only one, 2nd coming of Jesus and only one gathering. If then cherry picked passages of the OT contradict this the witness is misapplied while still correct and true. 

In any case, whatever you want to cling to, be ready for the war. It's coming. Just keep this in mind, the beast comes for the church to destroy it, in Christ we will prevail.

 

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