Who/what are the 144,000 Israelites ?

[Quasar93]

4 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Quasar

Jesus said there is a narrow path all must take in order to follow him, and warned us early from veering off this path onto the "wide path" that leads to destruction.  As soon as the gospels were made available in print, the enemy placed the Word of God into the hands of his wicked counsel who would conquer souls through the precepts and traditions of men.

So the first horse happened centuries ago.  The stage was set for the mother church of Babylon to provide the "wide path" using Christ's name.  From her, many churches were born, designed to block the flock from the whole truth.  This would carry on to play an important role in the end times, where deception would be at his highest.  This first horse was not the beginning of the tribulation, but would carry on into that time.  The False prophet comes on the Pale horse (4th horse), where death and hell follow him.

 

The 144,000 are not suddenly converted at the time they are sealed, but have been following wheresoever the Lamb goes.  At this "watch" they are found faithful because the Word is found in them. They have stuck to the narrow path, and washed their robes white from not straying.  They do not need to be "tested" for their faith, as they are found worthy of the Lamb at this watch where the sealing takes place.  No man knows this day.

They are not needed for the preaching during the tribulation, for God will send his two witnesses and all eyes will be on them.

The 144K are the firstfruits picked.  Selected for God's protection during the tribulation.  Nothing will harm them, and God will be with them when he pours out his cup of fury on the world, and disciplines his other saints through the fire because their robes are not fully washed yet, but he will make them clean once they have gone through that.

No one can claim to be in this number, but we all would desire to be found in the minority group of the faithful, and the Lord will decide who goes where at this watch.  So we need to stay awake, and make sure that we have not strayed from the Word and strengthen the things that are weak.

 

 

Thanks for your above opinion, sis.  You will find my Scriptural assessment of the 144,000 Israelites in the OP.

 

Blessings,

 

Quasar93

[missmuffet]

55 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

As I wrote in the above, when Jesus went to Sheol/Hell, in 1 Pet.3:18-20, He preached to the the 144.000 when they were all there, with Abraham.  They then had a chance to have their sins forgiven and receive their salvation.  as such, all those who had been accounted as righteous, including the 144,000 Israelites, were removed from Sheol/Hell, and taken to heaven with Jesus when He ascended there, in Acts 1:9. as recorded in Eph.4:7-10, confirming Ps.68:18.

 

Quasar93

I thought there were two different places. In Luke it was said that those in Sheol/Hades and those in Abraham's bosom(paradise) were separated by a large pit or gully. Those in Sheol/Hades(the unsaved) could see those in Abraham's bosom or the land of the saved. Two different places. Were the 144,000 in Sheol/Hades or in Abraham's bosom? Why would they be in Shoel/Hades if they were going to heaven? Those were the condemned. Although Jesus did preach to them as well.

[Quasar93]

8 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I thought there were two different places. In Luke it was said that those in Sheol/Hades and those in Abraham's bosom(paradise) were separated by a large pit or gully. Those in Sheol/Hades(the unsaved) could see those in Abraham's bosom or the land of the saved. Two different places. Were the 144,000 in Sheol/Hades or in Abraham's bosom? Why would they be in Shoel/Hades if they were going to heaven? Those were the condemned. Although Jesus did preach to them as well.

Hi sis,

Yes, the rich man and Lazarus, who is at Abraham's side, are all in Sheol.  There is a chasm between them that cannot be breeched.  As follows:

The Rich Man and Lazarus

Lk.16:19“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

 

As you can see, the NIV, the NASB and most other translations place Lazarus at Abraham's side, rather than in his bosom, as the KJV translates it.  And that they are all in Sheol.  Jsus parable in Lk.16:19-31 is a perfect profile of OT Sheol.  The righteous went there, as of course, the wicked, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, according to Heb.10:4.  Until after Jesus shed His blood and died on a cross for the sins of everyone.

Assuming Lazarus was a believer who died after Jesus did, he would be taken to heaven, according to 2 Cor.5:5-8, rather than to Abraham's side.  No one ever went to heaven in the OT because of that, except Enoch and Elijah.

 

Quasar93 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Quasar93

[Sister]

10 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

No it is not in error.  When a person becomes a believer and receives Jesus as Lord and Savior, they become a member of His Body, through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a member of His Church.  They never lose the ethniticity, which has nothing to do with it.  Revie3w ` Cor.12:12-13.

 

Quasar93

Hi Quasar93

Please don't feel that I am trying to put you down brother, or lifting myself up against you.  You have said a lot of good things, and I am sure you are a holy man, but I sincerely ask you to look into this again regarding the 144K, ...this huge mystery, so intriguing, that is staring us in the face, .....and since you love the Lord, and know that knowledge will increase in the last days, maybe we can talk about a few things that are certain and approach it with fresh eyes if you are willing?

The 144K, are not the remnants of Israel.  We cannot mix the remnants into this group of the 144K.

The remnants are a different minority and yes they are Israel's seed, but they have not been following the Lamb, however they will at the Coming because of mercy.  The remnants will be brought into the kingdom in their flesh, they are not part of the 1st resurrection saints.  The 144K are the first-fruits of the first resurrection,...Christians.  How do we know they are Christians,...because they follow the Lamb wherever he goes, they are always following the Word of God, and in the Word, and the Word in them.  They have come to the end of their journey, not the start, and will be harvested first to be "sealed"....which means protected during the tribulation,...not thrown into it, but kept safe,..because of their loyalty and will not be trodden down by the gentiles as the large majority will to be tested and tried....for I believe that Christ has already tested them, and they have already gone through the fire during their walk, and have made their robes white because of the sacrifices they made for Christ (sacrifices of the heart) and most likely because of the hard lessons they learned through their journey, therefore they are "redeemed" from among men, completely transformed & renewed.

 

Now a Jewish Christian does not get preference over a Gentile Christian, or visa versa, but each ones heart is measured according to how far he will go in following the Lamb,....because all have sinned, both Jew and Gentile, and all are invited to wipe the slate clean, and travel through that hard narrow road which is hard to endure.

Matthew 7:14   Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:13   Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

That straight gate is so narrow.  Only a few find it.  A few.  This does not say much for the large Christian land out there, because this warning was to all who call themselves Christians that the broad way will be traveled most.

You quoted;

1 Corinthians 12:12   For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Here are the members of that body which are set up by Christ;

 1 Corinthians 12:28   And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

This is how the true church was started.  From here the gospels were spread. Everything was organised to ensure the gospels went out.  I do not look around at the churches today as the initial church that was set up, because there is so much division in doctrine, and all are not in unity.  We have Christians devouring one another over doctrine, and some like to get very nasty if you don't agree with them, or if they don't agree with you.  The spirit of God is not moving there, it has gone stagnant going over the same things again and again, and if God sends anyone to shed a little light, to share something new, they are not welcomed but are hated with pure hatred in some cases.  Ye shall know them by their fruits, by what comes out of their mouths, unchrist-like, and haughty because there is respect of persons in today's churches.  If you are outside the circle, then you are looked down upon.  This is sin, because God is no respecter of persons, and looks straight into the heart, and will feed the sincere, the humble, and will take down the proud in Zion by feeding only his true flock.  That body of Christ is in unity, and Christ knows who is of that body which is holy, holy, holy,  and cannot be corrupted.  The 144K are of this body and play their part in the end times, because time has not been a barrier to them, and it's the truth that holds this body together for only those who have traveled the narrow path.  We cannot include everybody in this path, because it's not joined to the broad places where the multitudes gather.

 

  1 Corinthians 12:13   For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So whether we be Jew or Gentile, if we are following Christ through that narrow path he talked about before, we are his.  If we all drink that same spirit (truth), then there should be no diversity whatsoever.

Take a look at the 144K who sing the same song, "that no man knows", but them?  Such a little group and no one knows that song?  What is that song? Some think it must be a Jewish song?, but I disagree, because that song is the same doctrine Christ gave, that cannot be received by the majority, because they are drunk on their own doctrines.  The truth has fallen away, and it started way back when John wrote to the seven churches..... that still continue to exist today.

Now in the OT, if a stranger or Eunuch followed in God's commandments because of his love for God, he was joined to the tribes and would inherit a blessing amongst them, so they would be Israel also.  The same is for us today, if the Gentiles (strangers) obey God through his Word (Christ), not only will they be numbered out of the tribes of the children of Israel to receive their portion first, but will inherit the real portion which is the kingdom of God, Holy Jerusalem, and will rule over them as kings and priests, ....this is the portion that God wanted Israel to yearn for, not the physical, but the spiritual, and I believe that the 144K will be the kings and priests (having authority, and ability to teach), and the other group who overcame in the end, through faith only, will have to be "taught" that song they didn't know before.

 Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

  Revelation 7:17   For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

I am sorry this turned out so long.  I have much to say, and will finish off with this.  I think the reason that many hate the thought of the 144K being mostly gentiles, and that they are the only ones sealed during the end times,  is to admit that their hopes of standing in the high places with Christ, may not actually be a reality, and that the chances of going through great tribulation goes against everything they've been taught and that they might have to start doing some real sacrifices soon, not with just lip service, but for real.  Sorry if I have offended, I don't mean to offend, I am just speaking the bitter truth to warn that we must all not think too highly of ourselves, and to remember that narrow path that Christ wants us to travel and aim for that.

God bless

[missmuffet]

5 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Hi sis,

Yes, the rich man and Lazarus, who is at Abraham's side, are all in Sheol.  There is a chasm between them that cannot be breeched.  As follows:

The Rich Man and Lazarus

Lk.16:19“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

 

As you can see, the NIV, the NASB and most other translations place Lazarus at Abraham's side, rather than in his bosom, as the KJV translates it.  And that they are all in Sheol.  Jsus parable in Lk.16:19-31 is a perfect profile of OT Sheol.  The righteous went there, as of course, the wicked, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, according to Heb.10:4.  Until after Jesus shed His blood and died on a cross for the sins of everyone.

Assuming Lazarus was a believer who died after Jesus did, he would be taken to heaven, according to 2 Cor.5:5-8, rather than to Abraham's side.  No one ever went to heaven in the OT because of that, except Enoch and Elijah.

 

Quasar93 

Hi bro,

It looks like our only different is the phrasing of "Abraham's bosom" or "Abraham's side". They are both the side of the believers or the saved. But they were separated from those in Sheol/Hades.

[Daniel 11:36]

Today's followers of the Lord will be made immortal just before the tribulation period begins .... all of them

The 144000 are a portion of the 12 tribes of Israel just as stated and is it these mortals who will spread the gospel of the Lord's Millennial kingdom 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[Quasar93]

6 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Hi bro,

It looks like our only different is the phrasing of "Abraham's bosom" or "Abraham's side". They are both the side of the believers or the saved. But they were separated from those in Sheol/Hades.

Hi sis,

 

The proper translation of that passage is, "Lazarus went to Abraham's side."  Take special note of the fact both the rich man,  Lazarus and Abraham are ALL in Sheol/Hell.  Separated by the big chasm, for reasons outlined in Lk.16:19-31.

 

God bless.

 

Quasar93

[missmuffet]

4 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

Hi sis,

 

The proper translation of that passage is, "Lazarus went to Abraham's side."  Take special note of the fact both the rich man,  Lazarus and Abraham are ALL in Sheol/Hell.  Separated by the big chasm, for reasons outlined in Lk.16:19-31.

 

God bless.

 

Quasar93

Yes, that is what it looks like to me. The believers went to a place called "paradise" but overall place was called Sheol or "the grave". They were separated.

[Quasar93]

9 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Quasar93

Please don't feel that I am trying to put you down brother, or lifting myself up against you.  You have said a lot of good things, and I am sure you are a holy man, but I sincerely ask you to look into this again regarding the 144K, ...this huge mystery, so intriguing, that is staring us in the face, .....and since you love the Lord, and know that knowledge will increase in the last days, maybe we can talk about a few things that are certain and approach it with fresh eyes if you are willing?

The 144K, are not the remnants of Israel.  We cannot mix the remnants into this group of the 144K.

The remnants are a different minority and yes they are Israel's seed, but they have not been following the Lamb, however they will at the Coming because of mercy.  The remnants will be brought into the kingdom in their flesh, they are not part of the 1st resurrection saints.  The 144K are the first-fruits of the first resurrection,...Christians.  How do we know they are Christians,...because they follow the Lamb wherever he goes, they are always following the Word of God, and in the Word, and the Word in them.  They have come to the end of their journey, not the start, and will be harvested first to be "sealed"....which means protected during the tribulation,...not thrown into it, but kept safe,..because of their loyalty and will not be trodden down by the gentiles as the large majority will to be tested and tried....for I believe that Christ has already tested them, and they have already gone through the fire during their walk, and have made their robes white because of the sacrifices they made for Christ (sacrifices of the heart) and most likely because of the hard lessons they learned through their journey, therefore they are "redeemed" from among men, completely transformed & renewed.

 

Now a Jewish Christian does not get preference over a Gentile Christian, or visa versa, but each ones heart is measured according to how far he will go in following the Lamb,....because all have sinned, both Jew and Gentile, and all are invited to wipe the slate clean, and travel through that hard narrow road which is hard to endure.

Matthew 7:14   Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:13   Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

That straight gate is so narrow.  Only a few find it.  A few.  This does not say much for the large Christian land out there, because this warning was to all who call themselves Christians that the broad way will be traveled most.

You quoted;

1 Corinthians 12:12   For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Here are the members of that body which are set up by Christ;

 1 Corinthians 12:28   And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

This is how the true church was started.  From here the gospels were spread. Everything was organised to ensure the gospels went out.  I do not look around at the churches today as the initial church that was set up, because there is so much division in doctrine, and all are not in unity.  We have Christians devouring one another over doctrine, and some like to get very nasty if you don't agree with them, or if they don't agree with you.  The spirit of God is not moving there, it has gone stagnant going over the same things again and again, and if God sends anyone to shed a little light, to share something new, they are not welcomed but are hated with pure hatred in some cases.  Ye shall know them by their fruits, by what comes out of their mouths, unchrist-like, and haughty because there is respect of persons in today's churches.  If you are outside the circle, then you are looked down upon.  This is sin, because God is no respecter of persons, and looks straight into the heart, and will feed the sincere, the humble, and will take down the proud in Zion by feeding only his true flock.  That body of Christ is in unity, and Christ knows who is of that body which is holy, holy, holy,  and cannot be corrupted.  The 144K are of this body and play their part in the end times, because time has not been a barrier to them, and it's the truth that holds this body together for only those who have traveled the narrow path.  We cannot include everybody in this path, because it's not joined to the broad places where the multitudes gather.

 

  1 Corinthians 12:13   For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So whether we be Jew or Gentile, if we are following Christ through that narrow path he talked about before, we are his.  If we all drink that same spirit (truth), then there should be no diversity whatsoever.

Take a look at the 144K who sing the same song, "that no man knows", but them?  Such a little group and no one knows that song?  What is that song? Some think it must be a Jewish song?, but I disagree, because that song is the same doctrine Christ gave, that cannot be received by the majority, because they are drunk on their own doctrines.  The truth has fallen away, and it started way back when John wrote to the seven churches..... that still continue to exist today.

Now in the OT, if a stranger or Eunuch followed in God's commandments because of his love for God, he was joined to the tribes and would inherit a blessing amongst them, so they would be Israel also.  The same is for us today, if the Gentiles (strangers) obey God through his Word (Christ), not only will they be numbered out of the tribes of the children of Israel to receive their portion first, but will inherit the real portion which is the kingdom of God, Holy Jerusalem, and will rule over them as kings and priests, ....this is the portion that God wanted Israel to yearn for, not the physical, but the spiritual, and I believe that the 144K will be the kings and priests (having authority, and ability to teach), and the other group who overcame in the end, through faith only, will have to be "taught" that song they didn't know before.

 Revelation 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

  Revelation 7:17   For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

I am sorry this turned out so long.  I have much to say, and will finish off with this.  I think the reason that many hate the thought of the 144K being mostly gentiles, and that they are the only ones sealed during the end times,  is to admit that their hopes of standing in the high places with Christ, may not actually be a reality, and that the chances of going through great tribulation goes against everything they've been taught and that they might have to start doing some real sacrifices soon, not with just lip service, but for real.  Sorry if I have offended, I don't mean to offend, I am just speaking the bitter truth to warn that we must all not think too highly of ourselves, and to remember that narrow path that Christ wants us to travel and aim for that.

God bless

Hi sis,

Thank you for expressing your opinions re who and what the 144,000 Israelite evangelists are.  Please let me introduce myself and the qualifications I bring to you: I am a 94 year old WWII Vet, who became a born again Christian in August of 1937, while in High School.  My studies of the Bible reach 80 years, with qualifications from Prairie Bible Institute, in Three Hills, Alberta, Canada; Liberty University, in Lynchburg, VA and Dallas Theological Seminary, in Dallas, TX, to teach the Bible.  The better part of 20 years participating on Christian discussion forums, where I founded my own site and served as administrator with two different sites for  a total of ten years.  My OP on this subject is the result of a number of years in the study pertaining to it.

You are laboring under false pretenses in assuming the 144.000 I wrote about are the remnant of Israel, when there is nothing in the OP about the remnant of Israel, which is, for example, the Great Multitude, the 144,000 will bring to the Lord.  God will place them here on erth, in the absence of the departed Church, who already belong to Him, so He can pay undivided attention on Israel and reconcile them to Himself.  What better way than to do so with their own countrymen?

 

The Great Multitude in Rev.7:9-17 is a parenthetic, Jesus place where it is, directly after introducing the 144,000 Israelites, in Rev.7:1-8, to reveal the results of their efforts.  They are the same multitude as the Tribulation martyrs of Rev.20:4 and 6, of the first general resurrection, who will serve the Lord in the temple He will build in the Millenniumm recorded in Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47.

 

Hope this helps.

 

God Bless.

 

Quasar93  

[missmuffet]

Quasar, You have your own site? Where is it?