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FollowerOfTheWay

An eternity in hell for being human?

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Hell is a place for demons, not for humans. So why do you Christians believe souls with a human nature would go to hell? Is it not just souls with demonic nature that should go to hell, hence hell is a place for demons? Why do you believe that human un-belief would straightly lead to an eternity in hell? But if I simply believe I will simply go to heaven. But I would not want to be an eternity with a God that has sent the rest of the souls to an eternity in hell for not having done anything demonic, but for just have been human. I completely understand if God sends souls who are demonic in nature to hell, because there is where THEY belong, until they have changed.

I believe something more rational and just: a soul that is human in nature will stay in a human body within a human environment the next life, and a soul who are demonic in nature will stay in a demon body within a demonic environment, hell, the next life, and a soul who have become Christed in nature will stay in a perfect body within a perfect environment, heaven, the next life. Is not this a just system?

I believe it is unjust of God to send a humanly soul to a place that is only for demonic souls... TO A PLACE THAT IS ONLY FOR DEMONIC SOULS!

It is unbelievable for me that a loving God would send a soul that I love to an eternity in hell for just not being a Christian.

I see so much anger and hate in such a God! But I don´t believe that God is such angry and hateful: I believe God is loving and JUST - demons go to hell, humans stay in a human world, Christed humans go to heaven.

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51 minutes ago, FollowerOfTheWay said:

Hell is a place for demons, not for humans. So why do you Christians believe souls with a human nature would go to hell? Is it not just souls with demonic nature that should go to hell, hence hell is a place for demons? Why do you believe that human un-belief would straightly lead to an eternity in hell? But if I simply believe I will simply go to heaven. But I would not want to be an eternity with a God that has sent the rest of the souls to an eternity in hell for not having done anything demonic, but for just have been human. I completely understand if God sends souls who are demonic in nature to hell, because there is where THEY belong, until they have changed.

I believe something more rational and just: a soul that is human in nature will stay in a human body within a human environment the next life, and a soul who are demonic in nature will stay in a demon body within a demonic environment, hell, the next life, and a soul who have become Christed in nature will stay in a perfect body within a perfect environment, heaven, the next life. Is not this a just system?

I believe it is unjust of God to send a humanly soul to a place that is only for demonic souls... TO A PLACE THAT IS ONLY FOR DEMONIC SOULS!

It is unbelievable for me that a loving God would send a soul that I love to an eternity in hell for just not being a Christian.

I see so much anger and hate in such a God! But I don´t believe that God is such angry and hateful: I believe God is loving and JUST - demons go to hell, humans stay in a human world, Christed humans go to heaven.

Can you define "human" and "demonic"?

In essence, aren't we talking in both cases about beings with free will?

So this free will can be used either to become evil or good.

The issue is not only about believing in "God" as in the fact that "there exist a superior entity" and that's it.

The thing is also believe in His teachings! He showed us the way for good. The way of love. If someone doesn't believe in the way of love, and in particular doesn't grow in love, therefore doesn't want to be transformed by God in a better human being (on this earth, and in a better spiritual being next), that's what leads to perdition! 

And btw, if the soul with free will that doesn't want to enter "the way of love", therefore becomes colder and colder, and cannot be united with those who learn to love. Isn't that an eternal hell?

-----------

Ps thanks for this interesting questio @FollowerOfTheWay, I'm curious to read other anwers

Edited by listener24
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16 minutes ago, FollowerOfTheWay said:

An eternity in hell for being human?

No, those humans who will spend in eternity in hell are those who have rejected the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." - John 3:19

 

And the Father, with all His mercy and love send His Son to save us.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." - John 3:17

 

And if we reject Him, then we are without excuse because God did all He could to bring all of us back to Him.

Do not insist in evil, open your heart to Jesus today. He wants you saved.

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23 minutes ago, listener24 said:

Can you define "human" and "demonic"?

In essence, aren't we talking in both cases about beings with free will?

So this free will can be used both to become evil or good.

The issue is not only about believing in "God" as in the fact that "there exist a superior entity" and that's it.

The thing is also believe in His teachings! He showed us the way for good. The way of love. If someone doesn't believe in the way of love, and in particular doesn't grow in love, therefore doesn't want to be transformed by God in a better human being (on this earth, and in a better spiritual being next), that's what leads to perdition! 

And btw, is the soul with free will that doesn't want to enter "the way of love", therefore becomes colder and colder, and cannot be united with those who love. Isn't that an eternal hell?

Thanks for your throughout reply.

Earth is already a place for humans and this is not really hell. Most humans that lives here have not chosen the way of love and this is the place for them. Why could not humans be born here again or on other similiar places if they would remain the same in heart?

Human = a fluxuation between being positive and negative states, happy and angry. Those belong on places like Earth. Demonic = constant hate and evil acts. Those belong in hell.

Edited by FollowerOfTheWay
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Because it is what GOD says will happen. Man has no excuse, whether we feel it is fair or not. GOD gives us a very simply solution to this dilemma, with nothing for us to loose. Refusing to accept that solution is our choice, not GOD's.

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48 minutes ago, FollowerOfTheWay said:

Earth is already a place for humans and this is not really hell. Most humans that lives here have not chosen the way of love and this is the place for them. Why could not humans be born here again or on other similiar places if they would remain the same in heart?

Human = a fluxuation between being positive and negative states, happy and angry. Those belong on places like Earth. Demonic = constant hate and evil acts. Those belong in hell.

Interesting point. If they should "born again on this earth or other places" without keeping their personalities and the choices they have made, they wouldn't be "them" anymore.

 So you are proposing that they keep their personalities. But, as long as one goes away from the way of love, he becomes worse and worse. So in every new existence, they'll become worse. And this too is not an image too different from "hell".

Edited by listener24
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I understand what you are saying. It seems to have validity. Sadly it does not.

This is God's situation - His Creations and His rules. Does not matter if we do not like them, they still stand.

Because of sin, the world became corrupted in many ways. We are all corrupted and fallen beings. Left to ourselves we have no moral compass. We just wander about doing what we like and whatever is the flavor of the day or week. We are all lost sheep without a shepherd. The sooner we recognize that the better. The demons are restrained and bound for hell. That is fact. They would like to take as many of us with them as they can. They give us thoughts of 'Eden' without the substance. They give us the the idea that we can be mini-gods and be in charge of our own fate. They lie. Not a true word comes from them. They constantly antagonize men into thinking God is evil and a terrible taskmaster. Another lie.

So Jesus, Yeshua, came and died for the world so that we might not die and be thrown in hell. Simple. You have to choose.

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1 hour ago, FollowerOfTheWay said:

Hell is a place for demons, not for humans. So why do you Christians believe souls with a human nature would go to hell? Is it not just souls with demonic nature that should go to hell, hence hell is a place for demons? Why do you believe that human un-belief would straightly lead to an eternity in hell? But if I simply believe I will simply go to heaven. But I would not want to be an eternity with a God that has sent the rest of the souls to an eternity in hell for not having done anything demonic, but for just have been human. I completely understand if God sends souls who are demonic in nature to hell, because there is where THEY belong, until they have changed.

I believe something more rational and just: a soul that is human in nature will stay in a human body within a human environment the next life, and a soul who are demonic in nature will stay in a demon body within a demonic environment, hell, the next life, and a soul who have become Christed in nature will stay in a perfect body within a perfect environment, heaven, the next life. Is not this a just system?

I believe it is unjust of God to send a humanly soul to a place that is only for demonic souls... TO A PLACE THAT IS ONLY FOR DEMONIC SOULS!

It is unbelievable for me that a loving God would send a soul that I love to an eternity in hell for just not being a Christian.

I see so much anger and hate in such a God! But I don´t believe that God is such angry and hateful: I believe God is loving and JUST - demons go to hell, humans stay in a human world, Christed humans go to heaven.

The Bible tells us that those who believe in Jesus Christ go to heaven for an eternity. Those who do not believe in Jesus Christ go to hell for an eternity. God does not send people to hell the people send themselves to hell because they have not make a choice for Jesus Christ. The choice is yours. Life is full of choices and everyone on this earth has to make a choice of where they want to spend their eternity.

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1 hour ago, FollowerOfTheWay said:

Hell is a place for demons, not for humans. So why do you Christians believe souls with a human nature would go to hell? Is it not just souls with demonic nature that should go to hell, hence hell is a place for demons? Why do you believe that human un-belief would straightly lead to an eternity in hell? But if I simply believe I will simply go to heaven. But I would not want to be an eternity with a God that has sent the rest of the souls to an eternity in hell for not having done anything demonic, but for just have been human. I completely understand if God sends souls who are demonic in nature to hell, because there is where THEY belong, until they have changed.

I believe something more rational and just: a soul that is human in nature will stay in a human body within a human environment the next life, and a soul who are demonic in nature will stay in a demon body within a demonic environment, hell, the next life, and a soul who have become Christed in nature will stay in a perfect body within a perfect environment, heaven, the next life. Is not this a just system?

I believe it is unjust of God to send a humanly soul to a place that is only for demonic souls... TO A PLACE THAT IS ONLY FOR DEMONIC SOULS!

It is unbelievable for me that a loving God would send a soul that I love to an eternity in hell for just not being a Christian.

I see so much anger and hate in such a God! But I don´t believe that God is such angry and hateful: I believe God is loving and JUST - demons go to hell, humans stay in a human world, Christen humans go to heaven.

 

54 minutes ago, FollowerOfTheWay said:

Earth is already a place for humans and this is not really hell. Most humans that lives here have not chosen the way of love and this is the place for them. Why could not humans be born here again or on other similiar places if they would remain the same in heart?

Human = a fluxuation between being positive and negative states, happy and angry. Those belong on places like Earth. Demonic = constant hate and evil acts. Those belong in hell.

:sherlock:

Think

And if your eye causes you to fall into sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched.’ Mark 9:47-48 (Berean Study Bible)

Jesus Lied

“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’

“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. Matthew 25:40-41 (New Living Translation)

And What About Earth

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10 (American King James Version)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
 
And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)
 
Love, Your Brother Joe
 
~
 
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)
 
The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.
 
Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.
 
It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.
 
Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.
 
It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.
 
From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament
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6 minutes ago, listener24 said:

Interesting point. If they should "born again on this earth or other places" without keeping their personalities and the choices they have made, they wouldn't be "them" anymore.

 So you are proposing that they keep they personalities. But, as long as one goes away from the way of love, he becomes worse and worse. So in every new existence, they'll become worse. And this too is not an image too different from "hell".

Yes. They keep their personlities which by time can change. Yes. When they move away from the way of love they gradually become worse and worse. But when they move closer to the way of love they become better and better. You see there are only those two ways in life: either moving towards love or moving away from love. So in their new existence they could either be better or worse, in a matching place, depending on which way they took the life before.

Jesus showed us the way to eternal life in heaven. That is the way of love I believe.

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      My Bible software reports that this word "yom" occurs 2304 times in the Old Testament. That should be plenty of data to work with, to discover the likelihood that yom should be understood as some sort of age. How many times is yom not 24 hours in the Bible?

      Here are examples of how it is used otherwise:

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      (2) An indefinite time. – Existence in general: Gen 3:14: “All the days of thy life” (compare Gen 21:34; Num 9:19; Josh 22:3; Luke 1:24; Acts 21:10).

      (3) A set time. – Gen 25:24: “And when her days …. were fulfilled”; Dan 12:13: “Thou shalt stand in thy lot, at the end of the days” (compare Lev 12:6; Dan 2:44).

      (4) A historic period. – Gen 6:4: “The Nephilim were in the earth in those days”; Judg 17:6: “In those days there was no king in Israel” (compare 1 Sam 3:1; 1 Chron 5:17; Hos 2:13).

      (5) Past time. – Ps 18:18: “the day of my calamity”; Ps 77:5: “I have considered the days of old” (of Mic 7:20; Mal 3:7; Matt 23:30).

      (6) Future time. – Deut 31:14: “Thy days approach that thou must die”; Ps 72:7: “In his days shall ….” (compare Ezek 22:14; Joel 2:29; Matt 24:19; 2 Peter 3:3; Rev 9:6).

      (7) The eternal. – In Dan 7:9,13, where God is called “the ancient of days.”

      (8) A season of opportunity. – John 9:4: “We must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work” (compare Rom 13:12-13; 1 Thess 5:5-8). See DAY (4), above.

      That was from the International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Copyright ©1996

      Did you see anything there that seemed to suggest eons of time? Most of those uses are less that a human lifespan. Some, are references to historical periods – in other words AFTER the creation of man. The one possible exception, is number 7 above, but it is a reference to God Himself, not his creation. In short, to say that the word Yom contains the potential to represent millions of years, is forcing a definition or use of it, that is so extreme compared to actual uses of the word, that it can be considered as nothing other than a desperate grasping at straws by those that lack the faith to take God at His word.

      If any choose to believe the unstable opinions of the sciences over the revelation of God’s word, I am okay with that, I really am. I just wish they would have the honesty to state that they feel the need to abuse the science of hermeneutics to satisfy their own uneasiness about God’s word, instead of trying to convince others that it is somehow justified or legitimate to force personal beliefs upon the interpretation of scripture. To quote Prof. James Barr from the EXPOSITOR’S BIBLE:
      “If the word ‘day’ in this chapter does not mean the period of 24 hours, the interpretation of Scripture is hopeless.”.

      Is the evidence too strong against the bible, or at least of a literal interpretation of it? Certainly if scientific consensus is going to be the determining factor concerning out faith and theology, we have to ask the question:

      What about the resurrection? Scientific consensus would be that a man who dies, and remains dead for three days, stays dead. If God cannot defy the opinions of scientists, then no miracles happen, not now, not ever, and the resurrection never took place. If that is true, then Christianity is little more than a collection of interesting tales, sort of like Aesop's Fables.

      If God is going to be limited to our understanding of the laws of nature, then why would we be wondering about the length of the creation period. A God without the power to do the miraculous, could not bring the creation into existence in the first place. If that creation did not happen, then why would we suspect that creation has an author at all, and without such and author, does sin really exist? Who gets to define what is sin and what is not, who decides how salvation is accomplished or if it is even necessary. Is there really even an afterlife? Apart from a revelation from a supernatural God, these things are all unknowable, and Christianity has no real value.

      It may not be critically important, how long creation took, but knowing that it took place, believing God by faith that it did, is important, and I have to wonder how much we really believe God, if we cannot trust Him to accurately describe and make plain, the details of His own creation.

      Consider some of the implications of a lengthy creation. How does it affect other beliefs or statements from the Bible? Do other passages make reference to the creation events – do we call them into question? Did Jesus or the apostles mention anything about the creation account that would leave you to believe that they took it literally – if so, how does that affect their credibility? If we can choose to ignore a literal interpretation in Genesis – do we then grant ourselves the same license in other parts of the Bible – if so, how will you know where and when?

      These are questions each person must address and consider. While science has century by century, worked to discover how the universe works, each generation of scientists has seen major scientific opinions come and go. Each generation of scientists indeed, has at it’s disposal, new knowledge and new tools to investigate the natural world. Each generation has advanced the collective knowledge of mankind, and each has refuted theories held dearly by colleagues of previous generations, and yet, after thousands of years, is still seeking answers to fundamental questions, answers that are elusive.

      Meanwhile, the Christian is able to hold the same views as Jesus and the apostles expressed 2000 years ago, with no need to apologize for any of them. The 20th Century saw the sciences advance at a tremendous rate, but as theories about origins and cosmology became more refined and old ones discarded as obsolete, we found that the theories of prevailing science, are looking more like the bible all the time. Of course, science cannot truly address origins and cosmology ultimately, because those things are outside of it’s scope of examination. Science works in the present, it examines present clues about past events.

      The past is not like electricity or chemistry, it cannot be replicated or examined directly. Modern science is even more at a disadvantage, to look into matters of a spiritual nature. Science examines natural phenomena, the supernatural is outside it’s purview. Still, it is interesting to observe that scientists seem to be edging their way toward beliefs that the bible expressed all along. Considering that the bible is not intended to be a science text book, it is remarkable how many scientific facts it got right before scientists would discover them.

      Addendum, added on 11/14/2014
      Some years ago I developed a calculator which computes theoretical future population numbers from assumed starting calculation numbers and factors like length of generations, birth rates etc. It cannot adequately factor in unknown and unpredictable events like plagues, wars, etc. due to complexity and my own ignorance on those subjects. I also know that there is some error in the math, that skews the results by a generation or two, and I have not been able to figure out where the error lies, and have given up trying, I have more important things to do. However, if you would like to speculate and experiment with the calculator, using your own chosen assumptions, I have decided to publish the calculator as it is. While it is imperfect, I beleive it does demonstrate that the young earth model is more feasible that the ancient earth model, based on math and what we know about population growth and statistics, if the interests you at all, have fun by:



       

      clicking here. (http://omegazine.com/population/populationpredictions/populationpredictions.htm)

      Below were 10 Responses to the original posting of “On the significance of the age of the Earth”:

      shawn Says:
      March 9th, 2009 at 11:16 am
      This is such an unfortunate topic for Christians. I am a believer in Yeshua. I also believe that Rome High jacked Christianity and changed it into what ever they wanted. Not only did they change the Shabbat to the day they worshiped the sun, as well as a great many other holy days, but they also changed the relationship between the Torah and science. In Judaism the Torah and modern science go hand in hand. Many of the great Jewish sages hundreds of years ago calculated the age of the universe to be 13 billion years old and they did this using the same bible that christians use to say the earth is only 6000 years old. Because Rome high jacked christianity and changed a great many of things we have not only lost great spiritual gifts but we have also lost a most basic understanding of our natural universe that the rabbi’s have until this very day. If you want to rectify the bible and science you dont need to try and debunk science, science is from Hashem. Science is good, it is our roman inheritance of the hatred of science that is bad. Rome hated science because they hated any opposition to their views on how to interepret the bible. But if we take back what rome stole from us, our Israelite heratige as christians, then we will finally be able to rectify not only science but also a great many spiritual gifts and understandings that were stolen from us. Blessing to you and your community in the name of Yeshua HaMashiach our Rabbi.

      josiah Says:
      April 6th, 2009 at 7:35 am
      hi..My name is Jos , from new zealand and im 38 years of age, currently studying at otago unversity in new zealand. I disagree with some of your statements, and would like to offer a rebuttal.I dont think this is a unfortunate topic, nor do i agree with your quote that it is irrelevant..I quote from your text
      “Personally, I believe the age of the Earth as it relates to an unbeliever is of little significance, and is usually either an excuse not to believe, or is a way of avoiding the important topic of the unbelievers salvation. As a believer addressing this issue with an unbeliever, I will point out that there are believers that hold both positions and that the real topic of concern is whether Jesus came to Earth, died for our sins, and was resurrected on the third day. That is the belief upon which our salvation rests, and any other topic pales in importance”
      If you look into the historical context, to the unbeliver, the church has always suppresed the formation of scientific ideas formed from observation and interpretation of the results.This is why we had “dark ages” and why they are called “dark ages”. Christians are all too happy to accept the material benifits of technological and scientific endevour, such as internet, computers, carpets and the lightbulb but when it comes to facing up to the questions asked by the scientific community, most immediatly go into ostritch mode and pretend they dont exist until the thing goes away. but the thing doesnt go away, and now all the things that havent gone away are taught as scientific fact to your children.I dont have any children, so that why i say your children. I am a christian – that is i belive and try to adhere to the teachings of Jesus of nazereth and his disiples.I belive Jesus of nazereth is the son of God. I belive he died on our behalf for my sins and wrongdoings against God, and by accepting his sacrifice on my behalf i will have eternal life with him in The presence of God the Father and The holy spirit and all the Angels and others who have believed as i do. I also belive that the law and the prophets, the old testament was inspired by God and in some books directly transmitted by God Orally to Moses, such as the book of Genesis. I belive that the interpretation of the words of Genesis is literal, that is creation took 6 literal 24 hour periods.I am also a scientist. I am currently returned to university to undertake a B.A. in Lingustics, with a minor in Geology. I like volcanoes. i know that the current interpretation of the Geological record is in error. The majority of the Geologic community dissagree with me. some might even go so far as to say that i am misguided, or quite simply a religous nutter.you can imagine that someone with views like mine goes down in academic circles like a lead balloon at a party.lol. But there are flaws in the theory of geologic time, that can be found. The truth points to itself. Its time for us to admit we don’t know all the answers, nor should we pretend too.This is the crux of what scientific method or reasoning is about -to quote websters dictionary… “principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses..”
      but i do belive we should tackle these problems with Faith in the Lord Jesus christ as our guide, pray for guidance, and look for credible scientific evidence to support the creation story and present this to everyone freely for discussion and debate because surely as eggs are eggs if we dont try to answer the hard questions, and tackle the problems presented by the current view of the community at large for a old earth and no God, why should people resonably listen to us when we try to share our beliefs? And as you can see currently in the textbooks of any mainstream high school, the Devil is not lax. What makes us different from the ten-thousand other wacko’s with thier own take on The metaphysical universe? I personally dont belive, although i may be wrong, that Paul the apostle, who was a learned man would agree with your arguement, but putting it in context, he said” i count it all as loss for the gospel,” yet he reasoned with men, trying to win them over to the gospel by showing them thier errors in logical thinking as well as christian works of good deeds, and living at peace with all men as far as possible.
      I hope you take my argument to heart and consider it. afterwards, you may still belive that i am wrong.I would like to hear your thoughts. jos..11.35, 6th april 2009.

      Omegaman 2.0 Responds:
      April 10th, 2009 at 12:31 am
      Hi Jos,
      I don’t think I have anything to disagree with there, and yet my mind has not changed. How is this possible?
      I am an apologist, I believe in being ready always to give and answer for the hope that I have. Does my hope lie in the age of the earth, or in questions like “how could all the animals fit on the ark”? My hope lies in a risen savior. That is what I am supposed to defend. I am a young earther personally, but I find that giving answers to defend that view to be a poor investment in time. I have those answers, and answers for the animals on the ark etc. How about the existence of God? Yes, I can defend those too. I have spent hours at a time doing so many times, and in my experience, all I end up doing is convincing people that I am more knowledgeable than they first believed, and that I actually have some good points. Good for my ego, but not worthwhile.
      That is all well and good, if my task is to win debates, but I think it more important, to win souls. So, I may have not been clear on my comments, by not being thorough enough in my explanation. My point is, that Christians can go round and round debating the age of the earth themselves, the topic is not relevant to unbelievers from our point of view if it does not move them closer to a decision. I think that these kind of doubts, shared by believers and unbelievers alike, distract us from the real issues.
      If a person is curious about how I can hold a young earth view, I will make my response in as brief and yet convincing way that I can, but I am going to change the topic to the gospel as quickly as I can – the heart of what I am called to defend. What I find is, that as soon as I defend the early age of the earth, the subject will then go: “what about the animals”, I answer and the subject then goes “what about all the contradictions in the Bible”, and so on and so on and so on. Games of "what about" and "what if", are the ploys of one who seeks to win a debate, not one who wants to ponder the issues.
      Paul described a type of person that would exist in the last days: ” They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. – 2 Tim 3:6-7 NIV
      I do not want to enable anyone to remain in that category – merely always learning. I want to attempt to get them to acknowledge the truth. In as much as Jesus instructed the disciples:
      “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.” -
      Matt 10:14
      I take it He meant that we need to be wise, not wasting time casting our pearls before swine, but instead, moving on to greener pastures, where the sheep know they need a shepherd.
      Lest you still miss my point, I was not trying to say that the age of the earth is of no relevance, and certainly your point about Christians needing to have credibility is a valid one. However, most of the people that the normal Christian encounters, are not scientists, are not familiar with the research nor the scientific method. For the average Christian to try to convince the average unbeliever on the topics in early Genesis, is very difficult. After all, if that person is swayed by science, he will most likely automatically ignore the opinion of a Christian, who is not a scientist normally, and favor the opinion of an actual expert. If he is not swayed by science, then you are wasting your time anyway, as he will not listen to either one of you. Remember, even Christians disagree on the topic, so, I would rather move on to the topic all Christians agree on, the person of Jesus Christ, the center of our faith and hope.

      To quote you:

      “I like volcanoes. i know that the current interpretation of the Geological record is in error. The majority of the Geologic community disagree with me. some might even go so far as to say that i am misguided, or quite simply a religious nutter.you can imagine that someone with views like mine goes down in academic circles like a lead balloon at a party.”
      I believe you, and I believe the the unbelieving world get that. If you cannot convince your colleagues, I am not sure how successful you will be with those who are more willing to believe them that you.
      Now in the context of academic circles, I believe these topics are critically important. I am just referring to the day to day encounters of believers, who spend time in debates that cannot be won, because in those debates, it is not the truth that matters to some, the only thing that matters to them is to win, or, in some cases to not lose, and therefore remain comfortable in their unbelief.
      In as much as there are Christians who believe that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, who came and died for our sins, that we might be forgiven and have eternal life, who also believe that the Bible is the inerrant and inspired word of God and who also believe in an ancient earth and a lengthy creation process, I have little desire, nor do I see much benefit, to devoting too much time to topics that do little to advance the case of Christ. The topic is not related to salvation, and that is why I give it little significance. That is all I meant by that paragraph that you so eloquently and respectfully rebutted.
      Thank you for taking the time to read my ‘article’ and investing the time to correct me.
      Omegaman

      Omegaman 2.0 Responds:
      April 11th, 2009 at 3:12 am

      Quoteing Shawn:
      “In Judaism the Torah and modern science go hand in hand. Many of the great Jewish sages hundreds of years ago calculated the age of the universe to be 13 billion years old and they did this using the same bible that christians use to say the earth is only 6000 years old. ”
      Do you have any sources for this Shawn, that would be interesting to see. I also cannot fathom that anyone could “calculate” 13 billion years using anything in the Bible. If it was Rome that hijaaked the faith and came up with the 6000 year old calculation, why does the Jewish calendar indicate that it as been 5769 years since the creation?

      FresnoJoe Says:
      May 31st, 2009 at 4:05 am
      The Reason I Must Discount The Speculations Of Various White Coats And Such
      Is The Record Of Book Of Beginnings And All The References (OT/NT) To My LORD’s Part As Creator
      And The Accounting Of The Short Lineage Of The Brothers/Sisters From Jesus All The Way Back To The Sixth Day Of Creation
      “And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,”
      “Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,”
      “Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,”
      “Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,”
      “Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,”
      “Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,”
      “Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,”
      “Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,”
      “Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,”
      “Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,”
      “Which was th”e son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,”
      “Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,”
      “Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,”
      “Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,”
      “Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,”
      “Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.” Luke 3:23-38
      If One Believes In The Resurrection (After Three Days!) Of The Uncorrupted Physical Body Of Our LORD And Our Savior
      And The Redemption Of Vile Hateful Sinner Man By The Holy And Pure Blood Of The Lamb Of God
      Then The Creation Of Life, The Universe And Everything Is Just The Finger Play Of God
      And Will Be Nothing Compared To The Knowledge Of The Heights Of The Love
      And The Amazing Grace God Offers To The Sons Of Adam
      To Folks Such As You And I
      Love, Joe

      andrew o'shea Says
      June 19th, 2009 at 7:04 am:
      oh the mysteries of God. all will be revealed at the gathering of the saints, children of God who believe in the Son Jesus Christ, Yeshua. people by nature like to argue, that has always been man’s problem and why we have to have wars. It is by faith we believe God, a gift He gave us. I had my experience and have never looked back, i believe God. The only thing that matters to me is that i can relate to people the love God has for them that may recieve remission of sins and eternal life, John 14 v 26 the Holy Spirit will teach us all things and bring to our rememberance all the things we have been taught.’ it really doesn’t matter to me how old the earth is rather how much time is left. a great deception of the enemy is to get us to focus on things any thing that distracts from the salvation message, eternal life. we can ask and be told how old the earth is,i did, God bless you all on your journeys, no i wont ‘measure the earth’ i wouldn’t know where to begin. searching scripture i came to approx. 6000 years, think about God’s time line, 7 is a sabbath,mmmm getting close to Jesus return. come Lord come hallelujah, repent and be save God loves us amen

      Linda Says
      July 3rd, 2009 at 10:40 pm:
      Here’s a way to think about the “How old is the earth” question. When God created Adam he created a man. Not baby. Not a child. Simply put…. who is to say that God did not create the earth as an “adult earth”. Why do we think it had to be created in an infant stage? Lean not to our own understanding.

      Omegaman 2.0 Responds:
      July 15th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
      Hi Linda. I believe you are relating an argument often put forth by those who hold to an old earth theory, in answer to those who hold to the idea of an more recent creation on the basis that the universe and the earth appears old, much older than 6000 ears. The young earthers sometimes respond to the that the earth has an appearance of age, because God created it that way, mature as you put it. There answer to that would be that the earth does not just appear mature, it appears worn out. By analogy with adam, it would be like God created Adam with teeth that were worn down, were stained yellow, had cavities and perhaps few missing as well. By this analogy, Eve would be looking in the mirror at her gray hair and wrinkles on her first day, if she had been created with the appearance of age, instead of mere maturity. Many scientists and those who follow their lead, believe the earth worn, not merely mature.

      While my point was that the whole issue should not given more importance than it merits. That being said, I will give the response that the Old Earthers would give.
      They would also point out, that if God created the world to look that old, when it was in fact only a few thousand years old, then that would make God a deceiver, as though He was trying to fool people into believing the young earth was ancient, when that is not the case.

      Personally, I find that to be one of the most powerful arguments from the Old Earth camp.
      Of course, like most things there are difficulties. While an old earther can state that creating an earth to look old, makes God a deceiver if it is in fact young, does not the old earther have the same dilemma, if the earth is actually old, yet God chose to say it is young in His word? I prefer to accept that the earth is young, doing my best to understand scripture, and maintain that God is not a deceiver, but that some scientists are in error in how they interpret data, and in some cases, maybe they are the deceivers. I could go into details of what I think might be solutions to why the young earth appears old, but that is not the purpose of the post. I am not putting forth an apologetic for a young earth, I am making the point that faith in what God has said, trumps evidence from modern science for believers who think like I do.

      Sohei Says:
      August 21st, 2009 at 3:48 am
      Wasn’t Jesus a Jewish rabbi? Then he was taught same as others, which he didn’t dispute. They say Earth is 5769 years old.
      I would guess you would have to argue with what Jesus was taught.

      Sohei, do you have any source material demonstrating that the belief among Jewish rabbis 2000 years ago, was in a young earth of the age you suggest? I don't think Jesus was a rabbi in the way we usually think of the term, but I do suspect, that He would have understood from the scripture, that the earth was fairly recent, and of course being the Creator, He actually knew for certain at some level.

      winsomebulldog Says
      March 26th, 2010 at 9:53 am:
      I’m not positive about how old this post is, but I just wanted to leave a quick comment none-the-less. I have read through several of your posts and find it comforting to encounter another “scientifically minded” Christian. Sometimes, those two things instigate internal battles, and some might even argue that the very notion is an oxymoron. My husband and I cannot, however, change who and what we are. We are intelligent people who respect and appreciate the sciences. We are also Christians. Our faith does, and in truth must, outweigh our intelligence. Our God gave us both the ability to learn and a hunger for learning. Hubby is an engineer and at one time was in the aeronautical engineering program at Perdu University with an eye toward NASA. He has a grasp of physics and math that I cannot even fathom at times. But even he knows that science is nothing more than an effort by finite, fallible humans to define and quantify the unfathomable. Personally, I am willing to admit that there have been times in my life that I found myself struggling to reconcile what my mind wanted to believe and what my faith demanded that I accept. It is very easy, I think, for a scientifically minded Christian to be seduced by all the scientific “evidence.” It can sound so convincing. And Lord knows that scientists these days are very fond of spouting off their theories as if they are in fact scientific laws. (One look at the pervasive THEORY of evolution is evidence of that.) Hubby and I are fond of scientific programming on television and have watched more than a few that dealt with everything from dinosaurs to the big bang theory. How anyone with a critical mind could not see the evidence of the countless suppositions that are made here is beyond us both. We have both concluded that it would be vastly easier to be Christians without a bent toward scientific, critical thinking. But God did not create us that way and so we must both strive to never let our brains override our faith.
      I have rambled on far longer than I intended. But I really wanted to let you know how much I have appreciated your posts. Thank you for speaking your mind without fear. And thank God for forums like this that allow Christians everywhere to connect and share. God Bless You.       
    • By marita
      Hello everyone, 
      So when I ask about who wrote the bible, people give me different answers. But who actually wrote it? I believe so much wisdom could not come from men alone 
    • By 4LdKHVCzRDj2
      Do not be deceived, there are only two possible states: Belief or Unbelief.
      "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." - Romans 10:4
       
      The Scriptures are clear of the existence of these two states, and depending on what people are believing in it will be reflected in their lives.
      "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?" - Matthew 7:16
      One cannot believe in the truth and do works from deceit, for example.
      "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe - and tremble!" - James 2:19
      "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." - 1 John 1:6
       
      There is only one source of absolute truth: God (The Father, The Word, and The Holy Spirit).
      "For there are three that bear witness in heaven:
          the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." - 1 John 5:7
      If people believe in the truth, they will naturally produce fruits from the truth.
      "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
          unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me." - John 15:4
      If you are questioning: "You said Word, where is the Son Jesus Christ?!"
      "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory,
          the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." - John 1:14
       
      There are only two types of fruits: Bad or Good.
      Also there is another type of fruit, the one that appears beautiful outwardly, but inside is full of death, deceit, and all uncleanness.
      "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed
          appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness." - Matthew 23:27
      People in this group includes those who say "Lord, Lord", profess faith in Him but does not care in doing what is pleasing in His sight: To believe and to practice the truth.
      "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." - John 17:17
      "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." - John 1:17
      Such people are living in deceit, as they do not submit themselves to the Lord.
      And prefer to believe in the lie: Walk in darkness, practice willful sins and justify themselves instead of repenting and to seek a holier life and truly walk in love and truth.
      "I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." - Galatians 5:16
      These are the fruits of unbelief, as they do not believe the Lord can sanctify them, and prefer to live as they please.
      "Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6
      When the Word of God clearly states that such is possible for those who believe in The Son:
      "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." - John 17:17
      "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." - John 8:32
      "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin...
          ...Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:34+36
       
      Another common thing that is discussed is when someone who once professed faith in Christ but now lives in sin.
      They are in unbelief, and this is a fact. If they were founded in Him they would not fall in such state.
      "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
      and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock." - Matthew 7:24-25
      The Lord commanded us to watch and pray...
      "And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" - Mark 13:37
      "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation..." - Mark 14:38
      If we fall, He is there to take us back... If we believe.
      "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9
       
      Another common thing that is discussed is when someone simply says: "I will put an end to my life".
      To commit suicide is not an idea that is coming from the Spirit of God... And those who believe in Him would never do such a thing.
      "This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you,
          that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all." - 1 John 1:5
      But what indeed happened and the reasons: by accident, murder or by willful rebellion against the truth.
      "For He shall give His angels charge over you,
          To keep you in all your ways." - Psalm 91:11
      It is not up to me to judge... But if it was willful rebellion against truth then it means the person died an unbeliever.
      "Many are the afflictions of the righteous,
          But the Lord delivers him out of them all." - Psalm 34:19
      "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." - Romans 12:21
      "...Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life." - Revelation 2:10
       
      And another common thing that is discussed is when someone claims to believe in Him, but lives in rebellion against Him.
      No one who believes in Him, in truth, sincerely... Will seek to practice evil.
      If they do, they repent, and sincerely seek not to next time. If they can...
      "If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask,
          and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death..." - 1 John 5:16
      "...There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that." - 1 John 5:16
      "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death." - 1 John 5:17
      Do not seek to practice evil, and flee from it... This pattern is one of obedience to the truth.
      When the person says: "I will just sin and do whatever I want... I am sinner and cannot stop sinning!"
      This clearly is willful rebellion against the truth, pride of their sinfulness is preventing them to receive the words from The Truth.
      "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth." - John 17:17
      "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." - John 8:32
      "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin...
          ...Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:34+36
      This is one of the reasons why the Lord Jesus said why it will be so hard for "the rich" to enter heaven.
      "...How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!" - Mark 10:23
      "Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:3
      "for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking,
          but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." - Romans 14:17
      Because it is too hard for them to accept, believe and consequently be obedient to the truth.
      "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you." - John 15:14
      Unless they stop justifying themselves and repent indeed instead of insisting in their evil ways, they will all perish.
      "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God..." - Hebrews 3:12
      "For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth." - 2 Corinthians 13:8
      "...unless you repent you will all likewise perish." - Luke 13:5
       
      And to die in unbelief is never a good option...
      The elect, the true believer will keep believing in God till the end; and consequently through all eternity.
      But there are three types of believers:
          Those who believe in the truth, and consequently practice it.
              "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light,
                  we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of
                      Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." - 1 John 1:7
          Those who say they believe in the truth, but do not want to practice the truth.
              "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness,
                  we lie and do not practice the truth." - 1 John 1:6
              "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God;
                  because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1
          Those who openly believe in the lie.
              "Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
                  Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”" - 1 Peter 4:18
       
      What kind of believer you are is up to you to choose. And we all know that walking in unbelief or deceit is never a good option.
      "Thus says the Lord:
          Cursed is the man who trusts in man
              And makes flesh his strength,
                  Whose heart departs from the Lord." - Jeremiah 17:5
       
      And the Lord desires that we believe in Him, His Words, and consequently do them.
      "...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9
      "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above,
          and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there
              is no variation or shadow of turning." - James 1:17
      Or do we think we have something better to do?!
      "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord,
          choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...
              ...But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." - Joshua 24:15
      As the Lord Jesus said:
      "...Take heed that no one deceives you." - Matthew 24:4
      Yes, and this includes ourselves; our evil flesh that is full of deceit and all uncleanness.
       
      God bless you all in Jesus' name! Amen.
    • By cbear87
      Hello, everyone! 
      I am new to this forum and just seeking help in a certain area of my life. It's been a trying year, and
      1) I guess I am struggling in general with when I ask G*d for guidance/clarity/next steps to be made clear and I don't feel like I get an answer 
      2) I got majorly scammed by someone I had hired and I have been seeking an answer from G*d as to how I should handle the situation. It has been very frustrating because I feel like I have not gotten an answer from G*d (this happened about 1.5 months ago, and it is somewhat time-sensitive due to bank guidelines and so forth).  (details- I basically signed up a business coaching program with this "scammer" person who had been recommended to me by someone I trusted-- the program was WAY overpriced with little substance, not to mention the scammer blew off our calls and removed my access to things I had paid for, that were included with the coaching program.)
      So far, I have asked for a refund from the scammer (they said no) but I have not officially hired a lawyer or taken other action against them. I am basically out A LOT of money (over $10k that I did not have to begin with, and I am now in quite a bit of debt.) I originally hired this person to help me grow my small business in property management. 
      anyway, would love some advice!
       
    • By ManAfterHisHeart
      Hi everyone, I’m new to this forum! I’m so thankful for God’s work in my life and where’s He’s currently brought me. I got caught up in addiction for a couple years but He’s delivered me and set me free, Amen! I’m currently serving in a ministry and will be going out on missions this summer to Morocco, Turkey, Isreal, and Kyrgyzstan! 
      God is Faithful! 
      Be Blessed,
      ~ManAfterHisHeart~
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