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Not Destined for Wrath


Last Daze

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12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Invariably scripture connects this time with tribulation and suffer­ing. Zephehiah (1:14-18) provides one of the most concise descrip­tive accounts, as being more severe than any other in history. This is confirmed by Jeremiah (30:7), Daniel (12:1) and Joel (2:2). Jesus Himself warned “For there shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning to this time, no nor ever shall be.” Matt. 24:21.

John succinctly epitomises it as “the Day of the wrath of God”. Rev. 6:15-17.

I think the whole issue could be cleared up if the distinction between tribulation and wrath were understood.  They are not synonymous terms.  I know why its necessary for certain people to conflate the two terms, but they are different words with different meanings.

Let me just say that according to Revelation 16:15, the day of the Lord, which you know full well comes like a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2) does not take place until after the armies gather for Armageddon.

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7 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

1 Thess 5      I tend to think, that that passage at least, is comparing two destinies, a destiny of wrath, is eternal separation from God, and all that entails, or a destiny of salvation, to be with the Lord forever, which is indeed, encouraging, just as the passage says.

That's exactly the dichotomy I pointed out.  Somehow the word "destined" escapes people's notice.  God can become angry with believers who ignore His discipline.  Ultimately, our destiny comes down to obedience.

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2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I think the whole issue could be cleared up if the distinction between tribulation and wrath were understood.  They are not synonymous terms.  I know why its necessary for certain people to conflate the two terms, but they are different words with different meanings.

 

Hi Last Daze,

I was just thinking on that topic this morning - two different meanings. I`m putting together some thoughts in the form of a `conversation` between two people to explain what I mean. Hope you can comment.

Marilyn.

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1 hour ago, Cobalt1959 said:

It seems like people that take your position really want to see people punished, even those who are saved.  Why is that?  You will take simple passages and twist them around to say whatever you want them to say so you can be assured that the maximum amount of people are persecuted and killed.

Actually, the exact opposite is true.

1 hour ago, Cobalt1959 said:

A true believer cannot be "disobedient" in the connotation that you use the word and is not penalized in the way you claim they are.  If so, then you are claiming that God punishes us for our sins despite Christ's sacrifice. 

  • I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues.  Revelation 18:4

You're arguing against scripture.  Enough said.

 

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It seems to me that the events described in Revelation are quite reminiscent of the plagues in Egypt at the time of the Exodus. God's people were not appointed to God's wrath at that time either. Of course it was their living in Goshen where God placed them that helped to protect them.

However this time there will be no place where the "plagues" will not be experienced. But God promises to protect His people during that time. Look and see if the plagues in Revelation are directed at God's people.

As for the idea of not being appointed to wrath somehow proving a pre trib model--NO.

Rev. 15:8- And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

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1 hour ago, Uriah said:

It seems to me that the events described in Revelation are quite reminiscent of the plagues in Egypt at the time of the Exodus. God's people were not appointed to God's wrath at that time either. Of course it was their living in Goshen where God placed them that helped to protect them.

However this time there will be no place where the "plagues" will not be experienced. But God promises to protect His people during that time. Look and see if the plagues in Revelation are directed at God's people.

As for the idea of not being appointed to wrath somehow proving a pre trib model--NO.

Rev. 15:8- And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Agree, though its all about obedience.  Even the Israelis were required to put the blood of the lamb on their door posts.  If they failed to do that, guess what?  Wrath is for the sons of disobedience.

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

As for the idea of not being appointed to wrath somehow proving a pre trib model--NO.

Completely agree.

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Thanks Daze. The same holds true for the pre wrath position as you can see. Simple math is all that is needed. As in, how many more resurrections? These other models require more than the scriptures provide.

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4 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

It isn't enough for them that over half of the world's population during the Tribulation gets killed, they want believers that they don't think are "holy," or "obedient" enough to get killed right along with everyone else.  Of course, just like the superior people who preach  pre-destination, the people who pedal this stuff pedal it because they think they are so advanced that they will not be one of the poor losers left behind because they are so much better.

That is a very concise summation of the pretrib mindset held by many.  Not what I believe.

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On 12/12/2017 at 4:16 PM, Cobalt1959 said:

It seems like people that take your position really want to see people punished, even those who are saved.  Why is that?  You will take simple passages and twist them around to say whatever you want them to say so you can be assured that the maximum amount of people are persecuted and killed.  A true believer cannot be "disobedient" in the connotation that you use the word and is not penalized in the way you claim they are.  If so, then you are claiming that God punishes us for our sins despite Christ's sacrifice.  You can couch it in any terms you want, but that hardly changes the reality of what you are actually saying.  Your entire post is irrelevant since no Church Age believers are left on the Earth when the Tribulation starts.

The problem is one of God not being able to let go of His children. He wants them all to arrive in eternity. But there can be no spot or blemish.

I'm not sure you can say whom is or is not a true believer, nor what they may or may not experience. That's the realm of the Spirit. And since when did anyone who thinks any of the several takes on the rapture say they want the maximum amount of people to die? This is a false witness. A terrible denigrating, mocking lie. Shameful for a child of God to speak in such a way. This is what a person who I would call a brother Christ thinks about me? Horrifyingly offensive to me and all the other children of God that study in a sincere manner. 

It's not that anyone who is punished by the Father is not saved, it's that they are the children of the most high and therefore require correction and chastisement out of the love the Father has for us.  Or do you assume many millions are without sin?

No church age believers would be left? That would mean every believer in Jesus who repented of sin would be taken. Every denomination. Sure about that?

So every true believer is fully obedient? Are you? Looks like you are slandering your own brothers. Is that obedient? 

 

Edited by Diaste
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Here is what the Lord says about those who claim to be Christian just before the coming tribulation period

These are not genuine Christians, but think so

[Revelation 3:14-19]

These will enter the tribulation of His wrath and judgment, but can be saved if they will repent and believe in Him

Those who do actually do believe in Him will be immortalized just before

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