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What is the Day of the Lord?


Quasar93

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1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

Diaste

Rev 1:1 - The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. v.9 - I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and his testimony of Jesus.  Write on a scroll what you see and send it (all in John's present time) to the (existing) seven churches in Asia...

Most Churches of today have a mixture of what was written to the Seven Churches.  We should learn from this.

Rev 4:1 - After this I looked up and here before me was a door standing open in heaven.... v.2 Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this. (a future time of what was given in the first 3 chapters)

It does not say before or during this time of the seven letters to the seven Churches; It says what must take place after this. Future from the Seven Churches. Future from Us.  For we are all made up (a mixture) of what was described to the seven Churches.  So now After is After.  A glimpse into heaven and what will take place in the future.  Rev. 4:10 - The 24 elders lay their crowns before the Throne.  We as Believers will be given Rewards and/or Crowns.  You must answer the question of who these elders are or represent?  1 Tim 5:17 - The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor.  1 Peter 5:1 - To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's suffering and one who will also share in the glory to be revealed. (Past Tense). v. 4 - and when the Chief Sheppard appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

So when John who is now in the Spirit is up in Heaven he sees the 24 Elders with their crowns. v. 4 again says; when the Chief Sheppard appears, you will receive the crown of glory.  And all this before the Scroll is given to Christ to be opened, before the S, T and B judgments.  Go figure.

It looks like a Pre-Trib or Pre- 70th Week time to me.  Since the 24 Elders have already received their Crowns and our Crowns have already been given out to us, the Chief Sheppard has already appeared to us before the 70th Week.

In Christ

Montana Marv

But one must take into account all that is written. There is a great deal of truth in Rev 2 and 3 that is missed, such as the themes contained in every letter to each church. If Rev 2 and 3 is the church, as we all know it is, and if that same church is taken before ch 4, then a lot of prophecy in Rev 2 and 3 would be unfulfilled. 

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On 12/13/2017 at 6:41 PM, missmuffet said:

You do realize the words "Holy Trinity" and rapture do not appear in the Bible but that is what the Bible teaches.

In the Greek 'Harpazo'. In the Latin Bible and Latin Vulgate 'raptus' = Rapture. So yes, Rapture is in the Bible. Don't mean to be picky...

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7 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

You say the church won't be here and this is only for the Jews. Well, you're wrong. The hour of temptation is going to try the WORLD."

 

Those who belong to the Lord, both dead and alive, today will be made immortal just before the tribulation begins

Those who become believes during the tribulation is a different matter and these will either be killed or remain until the end

Those killed in the tribulation will be made immortal at the end of the period

Those who are alive will enter and populate His millennial kingdom upon the earth as mortals

 

Ok. Some questions if you don't mind?

Why must there be a Pretrib catching away?

Is the church that's taken the same as the church in Rev 2-3?

How are believers converted in the tribulation?

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On 12/13/2017 at 6:41 PM, missmuffet said:

You do realize the words "Holy Trinity" and rapture do not appear in the Bible but that is what the Bible teaches.

In the Greek 'Harpazo'. In the Latin Bible and Latin Vulgate 'raptus' = Rapture. So yes, Rapture is in the Bible. Don't mean to be picky...

I'm not 100% certain, but I tend to agree with Quasar93. I think the tribulation can be divided into three periods also. The wrath of man, the wrath of Satan and the wrath of God. 

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6 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Diaste

Rev 1:1 - The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. v.9 - I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and his testimony of Jesus.  Write on a scroll what you see and send it (all in John's present time) to the (existing) seven churches in Asia...

Most Churches of today have a mixture of what was written to the Seven Churches.  We should learn from this.

Rev 4:1 - After this I looked up and here before me was a door standing open in heaven.... v.2 Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this. (a future time of what was given in the first 3 chapters)

It does not say before or during this time of the seven letters to the seven Churches; It says what must take place after this. Future from the Seven Churches. Future from Us.  For we are all made up (a mixture) of what was described to the seven Churches.  So now After is After.  A glimpse into heaven and what will take place in the future.  Rev. 4:10 - The 24 elders lay their crowns before the Throne.  We as Believers will be given Rewards and/or Crowns.  You must answer the question of who these elders are or represent?  1 Tim 5:17 - The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor.  1 Peter 5:1 - To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's suffering and one who will also share in the glory to be revealed. (Past Tense). v. 4 - and when the Chief Sheppard appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

So when John who is now in the Spirit is up in Heaven he sees the 24 Elders with their crowns. v. 4 again says; when the Chief Sheppard appears, you will receive the crown of glory.  And all this before the Scroll is given to Christ to be opened, before the S, T and B judgments.  Go figure.

It looks like a Pre-Trib or Pre- 70th Week time to me.  Since the 24 Elders have already received their Crowns and our Crowns have already been given out to us, the Chief Sheppard has already appeared to us before the 70th Week.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I don't know if I must answer the question. I have thought about the stunning picture of the throne room but it's never come up to question the identity of the elders. 

Rev 1:20

20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

So it's not possible the elders represent the church when it's clear the the lampstands ARE the 7 churches. In other words, the lampstands and not the elders are the churches. 

Rev 2:1

These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right handand walks among the seven golden lampstands. 

I would think that if scripture was to portray the elders as representative of the churches, this would have been a good spot to do so. But we are told Jesus walks among the lampstands, not elders, which lampstands are the church. 

Or did you mean to say the lampstands represent the elders too?

Rev 2:5

Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

How would it be possible that these people could have their lampstand removed from its place? This is the pretrib church, is it not? Why the call to repent? How would that be needed when the pretrib rapture for the church is assured? I have always heard all believers are taken in the pretrib rapture and only the unbelieving are left behind, to be converted somehow. Not only that by Jesus says, "...I will COME to you and REMOVE your lampstand..." That does not sound like assurance of a pretrib rapture for all believers. 

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1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

In the Greek 'Harpazo'. In the Latin Bible and Latin Vulgate 'raptus' = Rapture. So yes, Rapture is in the Bible. Don't mean to be picky...

Yes, those Greek and Latin works are in the Greek and Latin Bibles for rapture.

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47 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

In the Greek 'Harpazo'. In the Latin Bible and Latin Vulgate 'raptus' = Rapture. So yes, Rapture is in the Bible. Don't mean to be picky...

I'm not 100% certain, but I tend to agree with Quasar93. I think the tribulation can be divided into three periods also. The wrath of man, the wrath of Satan and the wrath of God. 

That makes sense to me as well. :)

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 8:22 PM, Unfailing Presence said:

In addition the bible consistently refers to the " Day Of The Lord "  as the day the  Lord  , in person,  proactively executes  judgement & destruction upon all His enemies on earth .

That would most definitely include Satan's antichrist , his minions , and all other tribulation personal

There would be no tribulation going on .  Not  for even single day , post Day of The Lord , let alone for years since all Satan's people will have been vanquished .

There will be no enemies of the Lord around to run a tribulation when they Day of the Lord destroys them .

                                                 " Behold , the DAY OF THE LORD  cometh cruel both with wrath and fierce anger to lay the land desolate,

                                                     and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it . "

                                                      ( Isaiah 13 : 9 )

Jesus Christ is the one who will do this .

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35 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I don't know if I must answer the question. I have thought about the stunning picture of the throne room but it's never come up to question the identity of the elders. 

Rev 1:20

20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

So it's not possible the elders represent the church when it's clear the the lampstands ARE the 7 churches. In other words, the lampstands and not the elders are the churches. 

Rev 2:1

These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right handand walks among the seven golden lampstands. 

I would think that if scripture was to portray the elders as representative of the churches, this would have been a good spot to do so. But we are told Jesus walks among the lampstands, not elders, which lampstands are the church. 

Or did you mean to say the lampstands represent the elders too?

Rev 2:5

Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

How would it be possible that these people could have their lampstand removed from its place? This is the pretrib church, is it not? Why the call to repent? How would that be needed when the pretrib rapture for the church is assured? I have always heard all believers are taken in the pretrib rapture and only the unbelieving are left behind, to be converted somehow. Not only that by Jesus says, "...I will COME to you and REMOVE your lampstand..." That does not sound like assurance of a pretrib rapture for all believers. 

Diaste

I believe the Lampstands and elders are two different entities.

What do lampstands do, they give out light.  So each lampstand was to be removed because those individuals of that Church ceased to give out light.  They went in  a different direction from which they were going when they first learned of the Good News.  Call it falling away if you want.  If one falls away, they need to repent.  If the salt has lost its savor, it will be tramped under foot, and is good for nothing.  When the whole 'church' is in sin, their hedge of protection will be removed.  Their light will be removed, because they no longer reflect the light.

One needs to look at some major christian ???? denominations.  Methodists, Some Presbyterians, Some Lutherans and others.  Since some of them accept homosexuality, abortion on demand, theory of evolution, etc., etc., etc.  What will God do to them?  Take their hedge of protection away, for they do not repent.  They no longer give out the true light of Christ.  They are no longer effective in giving out the Gospel.  God removes himself from them.  Their lampstand is now removed.  The Holy Spirit still indwells believers. When two or three believers are together, I am in their presence.  In essence, they may not true believers if they do not repent.  This has been going on for the 2,000 years of the Church age.  So what is new.  It happened in John's time, and it still happens in our time.  The seven letters to the seven Churches delves into how these Churches go astray.  It us information on what to look for in a dead church or an Active Church.

So when the Rapture does occurs, what happens to these lukewarm or dead churches, they reflect. They go nowhere, What went wrong.  Now they have a choice, do they what to follow the A/C and receive his mark and become condemned forever.  Or do they follow the straight and narrow and be severely treated, and thus, they cannot but or sell,  many will die, many will go into captivity and then die.  When the food supplies of the world are diminished, guess who will not get food rations, those saints during this 70th Week.  The Church of the Latter Day Saints, very devote in what they now believe, which is wrong.  They may be some of the first converts.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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18 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's only called 'tribulation' buy those with an agenda. That agenda demands a certain conclusion and so facts must be ignored or twisted. In this case it's a conflation of 'tribulation' 'great tribulation' 'Day of the Lord' and 'wrath of God'. All these have to be equivalent so that a pretrib rapture can be a viable doctrine as it lacks scriptural support. The following is the only possible order of the last week,  and none other:

 

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. (referencing verses 5-7)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (So those who do not endure to the end won't be saved, i.e., Pretrib)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

You can say all you wish about this being for the Jews and not the church but this just shows the lack of real research in the pretrib camp. Pretrib does not, and cannot, account for all relevant passages concerning the end of the age, the 2nd coming, and the gathering of the elect. It's quite clear from the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation that Jesus is very concerned for the churches. If, as you and others claim, that Jesus was only sent to the Jews, and the last week is only for the Jews, why then would Jesus spend 2 chapters in the defining book on the end of the age on the church? Many warnings to the church are contained in this as well as exhortations and encouragement, to wit:

 

 Ephesus 

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,

 

 Smyrna

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

 Pergamos

 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna,

Thyatira

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

 

 Sardis

I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

Philadelphia

I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,

 

 Laodiceans write; 

I will spue thee out of my mouth.

thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,

As you can see, the CHURCH is called to overcome, repent, endure. Jesus says he rebukes and chastens those He loves, in the CHURCH. All the blessings are for the overcoming person in the CHURCH. Can't overcome if the CHURCH isn't here. Why the call to repent when the church isn't going to be here? Remember, this is all the last week, Rev 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

All that follows is the end of the age, and the church is in that time, till the end, called to overcome, repent, hold fast, wait. Can't do that is the church isn't here. Another common theme is the rewards enumerated in these two chapters given to those that overcome. What are you overcoming when you're not even there? Since the context is the end of the age, and the last week, the overcoming is going to be that of the last week and not the 'Church age'. Everything in Rev 2 and 3 is a specific warning for a specific time. 

Since this theme, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." is repeated many times throughout scripture we can only assume the CHURCH is going to get rebuked, chastened and cleansed, because Jesus Loves Us!!

If that isn't enough then listen to what Jesus says to Philadelphia, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." I know this is touted as a Pretrib proof but a close examination shows this is not the case. The point is the hour of temptation, that you say the church will not endure, will try everyone on the earth. This hour is of course the fire of the beast. You say the church won't be here and this is only for the Jews. Well, you're wrong. The hour of temptation is going to try the WORLD. If you are wrong about this, what else is wrong with your doctrine?

 

FYI, you have completely misrepresented what I wrote,that you quoted at the top of your post.  I wrote the following:

>>>"Quote by Diaste: >>>" The first half of the week is not called 'tribulation'. Jesus calls this time of unrest, 'the beginning of sorrows', 'birth pains' or similar depending on the bible version, but never 'tribulation'. Calling the first half 'tribulation' is a misnomer and I'm not sure why this occurs when it's never referenced as such in scripture."<<<

 

That's what it was about.  The 70th and final week/seven years of Daniel, is called the tribulation.  The final 3.5 years of it is called the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord.

 

Quasar93

 

Edited by Quasar93
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