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Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.


Marilyn C

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7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thanks Last Daze,

Now I really appreciate discussing this with you for I really haven`t talked with anyone who believes this view before in great detail. So I`m looking to the Lord who by His Holy Spirit will bring us clarification and more understanding in this. Always ready to listen.

So...can you please help me to understand your view. This is how I tend to hear you at the moment.

.....I.................................................I.............I....>

          The Tribulation                                         God`s Wrath

1. Can you add any more details for me please.

2. Also what signifies the end of the tribulation.

3. What signifies the end of God`s wrath.

 

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I've posted how I see the chronology along with a somewhat graphical timeline in this post here if you want to give it a look.  There are actually three posts in that thread that explain it.

Since I understand the value of discussing direct, specific points, I'm happy to oblige you here as well.

I think it's important that we stick with biblical terminology as it's defined in order to avoid confusion.  So, firstly, we need to define "the tribulation".  I see the time of trouble (the tribulation) as the time, times, and half a time, or 42 months that the man of sin is given to act.

  • There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.  It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.  Revelation 13:5, 7
  • He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.  Daniel 7:25

During this 42 month period, the man of sin is causing trouble (tribulation) for the saints.  The source of the trouble is the man of sin, and those being troubled are the saints.  At the beginning of this 42 month period, the intensity of the tribulation is very great, such as has never been before.  This intense persecution continues until the sixth seal is opened.

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky."  Matthew 24:29-30a

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.  And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”   Revelation 6:16-17

Those two verses speak of the same event, the sixth seal, and describe what takes place immediately after the great tribulation.   The great tribulation is a subset of the 42 month tribulation and takes place at the beginning.  The term "great" is a description of the intensity of the tribulation.  If the same level of intensity that began the 42 months were to extend for the entire 42 months then no flesh would be saved.  But it doesn't.  It is cut short by the sixth seal.  So "great tribulation" becomes "tribulation" for the remainder of the 42 months.  Something happens at the sixth seal that diminishes the intensity of the persecution of the saints.

Notice in Revelation 6:17 above what begins at the sixth seal, the time of God's wrath.  God's wrath is contained within the seven plagues of the seventh seal.  However, not every aspect of the seven plagues is God's wrath.   A plague begins when a trumpet sounds and ends when a bowl is poured out.  It is the bowls that are identified as God's wrath.

  • Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.  Revelation 15:7

The beginning of the great day of the wrath of God adds a new element to "the tribulation".  Along with the man of sin's persecution of the saints, we now have God's corrective discipline for those who were deceived into taking the mark and worshiping the image.  So, beginning with the seventh seal, those who are worshiping the man of sin are being troubled by God's discipline.  The plagues are a judgment against those who are committing the sin of idolatry.  Their purpose is to bring conviction in hopes that it leads to repentance.  The discipline of the plagues will continue and intensify until people have either repented, or hardened their hearts irreversibly.  When it gets to the point that no one repents, bowls of wrath are poured out in rapid succession.  This happens within days of the end of the 42 months.

I hope my ramblings are somewhat coherent.  I'll summarize below based on the above.

  • "The tribulation" is the 42 month period when the saints are given into the hand of the man of sin.
  • "The great tribulation" is a subset of the tribulation.  It begins at the same time of the 42 months, just after the abomination of desolation is set up.  It ends when the sixth seal is opened.  I'd guess that the great tribulation lasts ~40-180 days but we really don't know.
  • After the sixth seal, the seventh seal begins the time of God's wrath which is contained within the seven plagues.  Not every aspect of the seven plagues is God's wrath.  The plagues bring about adverse conditions for the purpose of repentance.  After all who are going to repent have repented, then the wrath of God, which is contained in the bowls, begins.  The wrath of God begins during the final days of the tribulation.
  • The tribulation ends at the end of the 42 months when the two witnesses are killed.
  • The seventh plague brings the day of the Lord which happens on the 45th day after the tribulation and completes the wrath of God.

Apologies for being so verbose but I thought the additional details might help.

 

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6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

 

Hi Last Daze,

Thanks for all the detail and the link. I have printed them off & will work through to ask some questions. You know me, I tend to do a step at a time.

regards, Marilyn.

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3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Thanks for all the detail and the link. I have printed them off & will work through to ask some questions. You know me, I tend to do a step at a time.

regards, Marilyn.

And thanks for taking the time to give it consideration.

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Hi Last Daze,

I did appreciate reading through your thoughts on the Trib and God`s wrath. I obviously agree with a lot of what you say, however there are a couple of `timing` issues I thought we could look at together.

These are your scriptures and I`ll bring in a few more to see if we can get some clarity.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.` (Matt. 24: 29 & 30)

`I looked when he opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the moon became like blood and the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken in a mighty wind.

Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Rev. 6: 12 - 17)

`Let the nations be awakened and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there I will sit to judge.....Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

The sun and moon will grow dark and the stars will diminish their brightness. The Lord also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake;...` (Joel 3: 14 - 16)

`And it shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be ONE DAY which is known to the Lord - neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light. (Zech. 14: 6 & 7)

`...when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance .....then the lawless....the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.` (2 Thess. 1: 7 & 8,   2: 8)  

 

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So I see we have 3 major events which I believe all occur in ONE DAY.

    1.The Earthquake

The Cause - ` The Lord also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake;...` (Joel 3: 16)

`I looked when he opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake..` (Rev. 6: 12)

    2. Darkness

This earthquake is associated with darkness.

`Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ` (Matt. 24: 29)

The sun and moon will grow dark and the stars will diminish their brightness. The Lord also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake;...` (Joel 3: 14 - 16)

`And it shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be ONE DAY which is known to the Lord - neither day nor night. `(Zech. 14: 6 & 7)

   3. The Lord Returns

When the Lord returns then the darkness of that day becomes light at evening.

`And it shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be ONE DAY which is known to the Lord - neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light. (Zech. 14: 6 & 7)

`...the lawless....the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.` (2 Thess. 2: 8)  

 

 

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This is how my Pastor (P.G.J.Lovell, many years ago) described this event -

`Now we should consider a verse in Zech. 14. In v 7 a particular day is described - an unusual day. A day known only to the Lord. A day which is neither light nor dark. A day that quite unnaturally becomes light at evening time.

This is a specific day, apart from all other days, and I believe it has a significance inasmuch as it is the day that the Lord of Hosts and his armies leave the heavenly heights to invade Satanically-ruled earth. (Rev.19); and as all natural light has ceased (and the book of revelation tells us `they gnaw their very tongues in pain and darkness`), suddenly this strange, eerie half-light appears. There is no natural light, but it would seem to indicate a light other than of nature, beginning to change the blackness of the planet.

We know that Jesus has said when He comes it will be with power and great glory, and all the holy angels with Him, and I suspect this first ray and glimmer of light is emanating from the distant armies of heaven who are on their way to this sin-stricken blackened earth. Hence at evening time the light is brighter - as though there were a steady increase in this emanation of glory.

....Whatever the explanation (of every eye seeing Him) this great blaze of effulgent glory continues to increase in intensity until, as Paul tells us, the man of sin will be destroyed (literally `paralysed) by the brightness of His coming, and I suspect, not only the man of sin, but the very armies of the beast. `

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5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So I see we have 3 major events which I believe all occur in ONE DAY.

    1.The Earthquake

The Cause - ` The Lord also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake;...` (Joel 3: 16)

`I looked when he opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake..` (Rev. 6: 12)

    2. Darkness

This earthquake is associated with darkness.

`Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ` (Matt. 24: 29)

The sun and moon will grow dark and the stars will diminish their brightness. The Lord also will roar from Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; the heavens and earth will shake;...` (Joel 3: 14 - 16)

`And it shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be ONE DAY which is known to the Lord - neither day nor night. `(Zech. 14: 6 & 7)

   3. The Lord Returns

When the Lord returns then the darkness of that day becomes light at evening.

`And it shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be ONE DAY which is known to the Lord - neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light. (Zech. 14: 6 & 7)

`...the lawless....the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.` (2 Thess. 2: 8)  

 

 

Hello Marilyn,

When I quoted Matthew 24:30's reference to the sixth seal, I stopped where I did intentionally.  Have you noticed that the plagues are missing from Matthew 24?  We know that they're going to happen but where do they fit into the scheme of what Jesus described?  I read Matthew 24:30 like this:

  • And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, [and then the seven plagues happen] and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  Matthew 24:30

Let me explain why.  When the sixth seal is opened, there is no mention of people seeing the Son of Man.  They see the sign of the Son of Man.  The sky is rolled back and people get a glimpse into the spiritual realm.  Based on what they say, they see the throne room scene of Revelation 5.

  • And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."  Revelation 6:16

That's a funny thing to say, unless of course you've seen someone sitting on a throne and a lamb.  Notice also that they respond to what they're seeing with fear, fear of the coming wrath.  Fear is different from mourning.  Fear has to do with punishment.  Mourning expresses sorrow or loss.  When they actually see the Son of Man, they realize that they have chosen poorly and regret it.

If you disagree with this then I'm curious as to where you see the plagues fitting into Matthew 24 and what you consider to be the sign of the Son of Man.  Jesus makes a distinction between seeing the sign of the Son of Man and seeing the Son of Man.  Why would He do that if its all considered the same thing?

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8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hello Marilyn,

When I quoted Matthew 24:30's reference to the sixth seal, I stopped where I did intentionally.  Have you noticed that the plagues are missing from Matthew 24?  We know that they're going to happen but where do they fit into the scheme of what Jesus described?  I read Matthew 24:30 like this:

  • And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, [and then the seven plagues happen] and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  Matthew 24:30

Let me explain why.  When the sixth seal is opened, there is no mention of people seeing the Son of Man.  They see the sign of the Son of Man.  The sky is rolled back and people get a glimpse into the spiritual realm.  Based on what they say, they see the throne room scene of Revelation 5.

  • And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb."  Revelation 6:16

That's a funny thing to say, unless of course you've seen someone sitting on a throne and a lamb.  Notice also that they respond to what they're seeing with fear, fear of the coming wrath.  Fear is different from mourning.  Fear has to do with punishment.  Mourning expresses sorrow or loss.  When they actually see the Son of Man, they realize that they have chosen poorly and regret it.

If you disagree with this then I'm curious as to where you see the plagues fitting into Matthew 24 and what you consider to be the sign of the Son of Man.  Jesus makes a distinction between seeing the sign of the Son of Man and seeing the Son of Man.  Why would He do that if its all considered the same thing?

Hi Last Daze,

OK I see what you mean. And I believe, as you probably do that different prophets are given different aspects and details & so together we can see the whole picture.

1. So...`are the 7 plagues` between the sign of the Lord and the seeing of Him. You would have to have scriptures to show that is true. Now I believe from God`s word that the `sign of the Son of Man` coming is the light of His glory coming from heaven. This would be clearly seen amid the great darkness of this planet at that time. Then as the Lord, (in power and great glory) descends with His angelic army who also emit great glory, the light would be so illuminating that that is all they on earth would see - the Lord and His angelic army.

Note at first it is the sign, a great light in the distance when all is black on earth, then as the `sky is rolled back` as it were, the people actually see the Lord and His angels in the sky. What an absolutely terrifying sight.

Note the people of the earth would not be able to see the throne room in the third heaven, as it is beyond natural eyes and they do not have the Holy Spirit to be able to see into that spiritual realm.

2. Where are the plagues in Matt. 24. As I said different parts of scripture build on each other. In Matt. 24 the Lord is talking with Israel concerning their nation, their temple, who they are to believe, (prophets) and their coming kingdom/rule of their Messiah. (Remember the 11 disciples asked the Lord when He was about to ascend, `was He going to restore the kingdom rule to Israel at that time.` (Acts 1: 6)

So we see in Matt. 24 that the Lord is mainly concerned with Israel and their hopes of a restored rulership under their Messiah. The details of the plagues are really concerning the rebellious nations of the world. Jesus` words here cover so much -

`For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21) 

The OT prophets spoke in detail about that time and the people of Israel well knew that.

So for your view you need other scriptures to prove your point dear bro.

 

regards, Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

OK I see what you mean. And I believe, as you probably do that different prophets are given different aspects and details & so together we can see the whole picture.

1. So...`are the 7 plagues` between the sign of the Lord and the seeing of Him. You would have to have scriptures to show that is true. Now I believe from God`s word that the `sign of the Son of Man` coming is the light of His glory coming from heaven. This would be clearly seen amid the great darkness of this planet at that time. Then as the Lord, (in power and great glory) descends with His angelic army who also emit great glory, the light would be so illuminating that that is all they on earth would see - the Lord and His angelic army.

Note at first it is the sign, a great light in the distance when all is black on earth, then as the `sky is rolled back` as it were, the people actually see the Lord and His angels in the sky. What an absolutely terrifying sight.

Note the people of the earth would not be able to see the throne room in the third heaven, as it is beyond natural eyes and they do not have the Holy Spirit to be able to see into that spiritual realm.

2. Where are the plagues in Matt. 24. As I said different parts of scripture build on each other. In Matt. 24 the Lord is talking with Israel concerning their nation, their temple, who they are to believe, (prophets) and their coming kingdom/rule of their Messiah. (Remember the 11 disciples asked the Lord when He was about to ascend, `was He going to restore the kingdom rule to Israel at that time.` (Acts 1: 6)

So we see in Matt. 24 that the Lord is mainly concerned with Israel and their hopes of a restored rulership under their Messiah. The details of the plagues are really concerning the rebellious nations of the world. Jesus` words here cover so much -

`For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21) 

The OT prophets spoke in detail about that time and the people of Israel well knew that.

So for your view you need other scriptures to prove your point dear bro.

 

regards, Marilyn.

I think this is just going to go in circles.

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2 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I think this is just going to go in circles.

Not if you give proof scripturally in a text that shows the 7 plagues comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIB. (Matt. 24: 29)

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