Conversation about the Tribulation and God`s Wrath.

[Daniel 11:36]

Absolutely  true Sojourner  

[Steve Conley]

9 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Steve,

One slight problem: the entire time of the Tribulation, from the first Seal Judgment to the last Bowl Judgment, is the time of the wrath of the Lamb and of Gad:

" I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” " (Revelation 6:12-17, NASB, emphasis mine)

Since this is part of the Seal Judgments, there is no indication of separation between them. Otherwise, they would not have been included in the Seal Judgments. The major issue here is not how many "Tribulations" exist (Jesus said in Matthew that there would be only one time and no other time like it), but that in Matthew and Luke, Jesus is speaking to the Jews of Israel before the advent of the Church. Paul, meantime, is addressing the Church, which had been revealed by this point and was now operating via the Holy Spirit.

While Satan indeed is angry and seeks to harm Israel and whomever he can after being flung to earth in Revelation 12, it is because his time at that point is growing very short.  But the Lord has been holding back considerably for millennia now, and the tribulation is His time of wrath, as Scripture shows us.

-Sojo414.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Sojo414, I'm glad you are aware that what John sees at the opening of the sixth seal is Joel's prophesied cosmic sign that must come prior to the day of the Lord. I, like you, believed that the seals were part of God's day of the Lord judgement for 40 years. However, God (not Gad) had mercy upon me and began to show me that I was reading an erroneous model for the timing of the rapture into the text. Joel's and Peter's simple statement concerning the timing of the day of the Lord challenged me to reconsider my timeline and the texts I had used to support it.

I have found that there are many reasons to conclude that the opening of the seals are not part of the day of the Lord and God's wrath poured out at that time.

1) The seals are opened in order from the first to the seventh and at the opening of the fifth seal God's vengeance has not yet fallen upon those who persecuted the Lord's servants.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The souls under the alter are crying out for vengeance for their murders and are told it would not come for awhile, "a little season". More of their brethren and fellowservants must be martyred before God would pour out His wrath upon the earth dwellers who persecuted them. Notice that this is consistent with Paul's statement to the persecuted Thessalonians that the church would have rest from persecution when Christ begins to tribulate their persecutors at His parousia. Persecution will continue up until God's wrath is poured out.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

We see that at the opening of the fifth seal God's wrath has not yet been poured out

2) No wrath of God is mentioned in the Book of Revelation until it is said to be impending at the opening of the sixth seal

The Greek word's for wrath, or-gay' and thoo-mos' appear 12 times in relation to God's wrath in the book of Revelation. The first appearance is at the end of Rev 6 where the context is John sees the earthdwellers who have just witnessed Joel's cosmic sign and a mega earthquake hiding from the soon coming wrath of the Lamb.

There is no mention of God's wrath until this point in the book of Revelation.

It was my presupposition (and I think yours also) which caused me to insist that "the great day of his wrath is come" must refer back to all the seals. However, I was wrong as you are.

3) The day of the Lord comes after the cosmic sign

You are attempting to use "your understanding" of what John sees at the opening of the sixth seal to contradict the explicit statement of Joel and Peter quoting Joel.

Joe 2:30  And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Peter's quotation in Greek is significant because it fixes the meaning of the word "before" to be "prior to" and not "in front of". The statement is that the cosmic sign will appear prior to the day of the Lord. There is no other way to take that clear and simple statement.

The question that remains is if what John describes at the opening of the sixth seal is Joel's cosmic sign. If it is then the day of the Lord and God's wrath therein comes after it not before it.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

To help us see whether it is the event which signifies the beginning of the day of the Lord and God's wrath therein, we should compare it with other Scriptures on the matter.

Isa 2:12  For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Isa 2:13  And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
Isa 2:14  And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
Isa 2:15  And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
Isa 2:16  And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
Isa 2:17  And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:18  And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
Isa 2:19  And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Isa 2:20  In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
Isa 2:21  To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Isa 13:6  Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7  Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8  And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9  Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11  And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the wave

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

John sees that which Joel and Isaiah prophesied concerning the earthdwellers witnessing the cosmic sign and being caught like a thief by Christ's return to pour out His wrath upon those who worshiped the Beast and persecuted the elect and Israel. Joel says plainly, that the cosmic sign comes before the day of the Lord. Since the beginning of the day of the Lord involves God's wrath poured out upon the earthdwellers, God's wrath is not poured out until after the sixth seal is opened. In fact, His wrath begins to be poured out with the first trumpet judgement which comes after the seventh seal is opened (Rev 8).

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Jesus describes the beginning of the great day of His wrath.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall (1) the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then (2) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And (3) he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1) The cosmic sign (no wrath yet)

2) Jesus is revealed for all the world to see Him coming in His glory (no wrath yet)

3) He sends the angels to gather His elect to Him in the clouds (no wrath yet)

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

4) Later the same day His wrath falls upon the unbelieving (wrath begins to be poured out).

Sojo414, it took many months for a great number of the wrong assumptions and misunderstandings that I held as a classic pre-triber to be corrected by the Word of God. If you will simply allow the Scriptures to be true in every situation and correct your model accordingly God will be pleased. By doing so you will show yourself as "a workman that needeth not be ashamed".

Answer for yourself this question: How does Joel 2:31 fit into your eschatological model?

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

[Marilyn C]

21 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C, many confuse the great tribulation (Matt 24:15, 21; Dan 9:27; 12:1; Rev 7:14) that Jesus spoke of with the wrath of God on the day of the Lord (1Thes 5:2-3; 2Thes 1:6-10; Rev 8, 9, 16-19).

These two periods of tribulation are mutually exclusive of each other. They are separated by the cosmic sign that Joel spoke of (Joel 2:31: Matt 24:29; Luke 21:25; Rev 6:12-17), the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ in all His glory with the holy angels (Matt 24:30; Rev 1:7),

the resurrection of the dead in Christ (Dan 12:2; 1Cor 15:23, 51-52; Rev 20:4-6), and the rapture of Christ's own (Matt 24:31; 1Thes 4:15-17; 2Thes 2:1).

Before His wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving Beast worshipers we are safely in the Fathers house (John 14:3) before the throne (Rev 7:9-17)......

 

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

 

Hi Steve,

Pleased to meet you and discuss God`s word with you. Now I am very glad to see you have written -the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ in all His glory with the holy angels. So true from God`s word.

That will be the time of recompense.....but our actual `rest`will be when Jesus the Head of the Body comes for us, prior to the tribulation.

Also....the `Day of the Lord` is a period of time and also a fixed Day.

regards, Marilyn.  

[Steve Conley]

17 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

Pleased to meet you and discuss God`s word with you. Now I am very glad to see you have written -the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ in all His glory with the holy angels. So true from God`s word.

That will be the time of recompense.....but our actual `rest`will be when Jesus the Head of the Body comes for us, prior to the tribulation.

Also....the `Day of the Lord` is a period of time and also a fixed Day.

regards, Marilyn.  

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C, since I was a pre-triber for 40 years I'm well aware of the teaching that says Christ comes for his saints before the week and with His saints at the end of the week. The problem is that there are many texts which contradict that idea.

For instance, Paul in writing to the Thessalonians says that they (the church) will have rest from their persecutions when Jesus is revealed with the angels. This revelation takes place according to Jesus after the tribulation of those days (great tribulation) being portended by the cosmic sign (Matt 24:29-30).

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

You are right that the day of the Lord is a period of time and that it has a starting day. It will begin after the sun, moon, and stars go dark setting the stage for our Saviour's return in glory. The day of the Lord is the coming (parousia) of Jesus Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. Just as the day of Christ is the coming of Jesus Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with his church. Both of these period days begin at Christ's singular second coming.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Coming is translated from "parousia" which refers to His return and continuing presence. Just as Christ's first coming was more than His birth, it involved His life, ministry, death, burial, resurrection, and assention. So also, the second coming is a period of time much like the day of the Lord. It stretches from our gathering unto Him all through the trumpet and vial judgements and even His destruction of the Beast at Armageddon. However, it starts with His appearing in the clouds for all the world to see (Rev 1:7; Matt 24:30), then the first resurrection, followed by the rapture.

Hallelujah

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C, since I was a pre-triber for 40 years I'm well aware of the teaching that says Christ comes for his saints before the week and with His saints at the end of the week. The problem is that there are many texts which contradict that idea.

For instance, Paul in writing to the Thessalonians says that they (the church) will have rest from their persecutions when Jesus is revealed with the angels. This revelation takes place according to Jesus after the tribulation of those days (great tribulation) being portended by the cosmic sign (Matt 24:29-30).

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

You are right that the day of the Lord is a period of time and that it has a starting day. It will begin after the sun, moon, and stars go dark setting the stage for our Saviour's return in glory. The day of the Lord is the coming (parousia) of Jesus Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. Just as the day of Christ is the coming of Jesus Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with his church. Both of these period days begin at Christ's singular second coming.

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Coming is translated from "parousia" which refers to His return and continuing presence. Just as Christ's first coming was more than His birth, it involved His life, ministry, death, burial, resurrection, and assention. So also, the second coming is a period of time much like the day of the Lord. It stretches from our gathering unto Him all through the trumpet and vial judgements and even His destruction of the Beast at Armageddon. However, it starts with His appearing in the clouds for all the world to see (Rev 1:7; Matt 24:30), then the first resurrection, followed by the rapture.

Hallelujah

Hi Steve,

It seems we both agree that the Lord will come with His angelic army, (as scripture says) and NOT the Body of Christ. I also agree that the Lord`s coming for the Body of Christ is called the Day of Christ.

It seems though we see Rev. 1: 7 and Matt 24: 30 differently. The Body of Christ is NOT on earth when the Lord appears in great power and great glory at the end of the trib. That is an awesome time for the whole earth will be shaken - the cities of the earth will fall, and the mountains also etc.

regards Marilyn.

BTW am still trying to understand exactly what you are saying. Can you write it point by point?

 

[Steve Conley]

23 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Steve,

It seems we both agree that the Lord will come with His angelic army, (as scripture says) and NOT the Body of Christ. I also agree that the Lord`s coming for the Body of Christ is called the Day of Christ.

It seems though we see Rev. 1: 7 and Matt 24: 30 differently. The Body of Christ is NOT on earth when the Lord appears in great power and great glory at the end of the trib. That is an awesome time for the whole earth will be shaken - the cities of the earth will fall, and the mountains also etc.

regards Marilyn.

BTW am still trying to understand exactly what you are saying. Can you write it point by point?

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Marilyn C, I'm going to make a bunch of statements without going into all the support for each of them at this time in an attempt to give you the big picture.

1) All true believers today, both Jew and Gentile, are part of the body of Christ, the church.

2) The church is God's elect.

3) God's elect, the church has been persecuted for the past ~2000 years.

4) When God signifies it is the right time the Beast shall confirm the covenant with many beginning the seventieth week.

5) In the first half of the week Jesus describes deception, conquest, war, and famine which is what John saw upon the earth at the opening of the first 3 seals. 

6) There will be a war in Heaven and Satan will be cast to the earth having great wrath, and Michael will cease to restrain the mystery of iniquity allowing the man of sin to be revealed.

7) He, the man of sin, the Beast, will shew himself to be God in the temple and thereby defile it, causing the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. This event Jesus calls the abomination of desolation.

8) The abomination of desolation happens in the middle of the seventieth week.

9) Jesus says at that time there shall be unparalleled persecution. He calls it great tribulation. It is consistent with what John sees at the opening of the 4th and 5th seals.

10) The woman, a portion of Israel, is hid and fed in the wilderness during the 42 months of the Beast's reign.

11) It is during this time, great tribulation, that it is demanded of all that they worship the Beast and receive his mark.

12) The truly elect will not be deceived by the signs done by the False prophet and will neither worship the Beast nor receive his mark.

13) We, the elect, will be persecuted unto death. The slaughter of the saints will be so bad that Jesus said "When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

12) The period of great tribulation is divinely shortened, because Jesus says, if the days of that great tribulation were not shortened none of the elect would be left alive upon the earth.

13) The great tribulation is cut short by Christ's return to rescue His own.

14) Before He appears in the clouds there will a great earthquake and the sun, moon, and stars will go dark. This is what John sees at the opening of the sixth seal.

15) The whole world will see Him coming in the clouds of heaven with the holy angels.

16) He will resurrect the dead in Christ and change those believers who are alive and remain.

17) He will send forth the angels to catch up, rapture, both those who were resurrected and those who were alive and remaining.

18) He will escort us to the Fathers house to stand before the throne of God.

19) Then He will begin to pour out His wrath upon the unbelieving earth dwellers who persecuted us in the form of the trumpet judgements.

Hallelujah

Edited March 23, 2018 by Steve Conley

[JoeCanada]

This is a fantastic debate. Well done.

Brotherly/Sisterly love. Iron sharpening iron. 

I'd like to share this article that came in my mail box this morning. Very relevant. It's written by Alan Kurschner from Eschatos Ministries.

by ALAN KURSCHNER

Many of us were told that the church will be “raptured out of here before the Antichrist’s arrival.” The Bible, however, teaches the church will first experience the Antichrist’s great tribulation. Then, at some unknown day and hour, Antichrist’s persecution will be cut short by the return of Christ to resurrect and rapture believers before the day of the Lord’s wrath—hence, Prewrath.

The purpose why the church will suffer greatly just before Christ’s second coming will be for purging and purifying, separating out those who claim to have faith from those who actually possess true faith. But believers are promised deliverance before the day of the Lord’s wrath. Accordingly, there is an important biblical distinction between the events of the Antichrist’s great tribulation and the day of the Lord’s wrath. Antichrist’s great tribulation will be directed against the church, followed by the day of the Lord’s wrath directed against the ungodly. The apostle Paul states:

Now regarding the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to be with him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to be easily shaken from your composure or disturbed by any kind of spirit or message or letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness [Antichrist] is revealed, the son of destruction. (2 Thess 2:1–3)

ANTICHRIST’S GREAT TRIBULATION

The great tribulation will begin at the time of the “abomination of desolation” (Matt 24:15, 21). Jesus, drawing from the prophet Daniel, uses this expression to personify Antichrist as a detestable idol that causes sacrilege (Dan 9:27, 12:11). Paul describes the Antichrist as “the man of lawlessness,”

He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, and as a result he takes his seat in God’s temple, displaying himself as God. (2 Thess 2:4; cf. Dan 7:25; 11:36; Rev 13:5–6)

Jesus, Paul, and the book of Revelation warn of the Satanic deception of signs and wonders associated with the Antichrist (Matt 24:24; 2 Thess 2:9; Rev 13:13–14). The Antichrist’s great tribulation against believers, Jesus says, will be “unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen” (Matt 24:21; cf. Rev 13). Believers will risk persecution because they will refuse to follow Antichrist:

If anyone is meant for captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed by the sword, then by the sword he must be killed. This requires steadfast endurance and faith from the saints. (Rev 13:10; cf. Rev 14:9–13)

So great the martyrdom that Jesus says, “And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short” (Matt 24:22; cf. 2 Thess 1:7). It is no wonder why the fifth seal martyrs cry out to God, “How long, Sovereign Master, holy and true, before you judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?” (Rev 6:10).

CELESTIAL DISTURBANCE

God hears their prayers and he eventually cuts short the great tribulation by the return of Christ to first deliver his people and then execute his wrath upon the wicked. Just before this occurs, Jesus says a celestial event will take place:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (Matt 24:29–30 ESV; cf. Luke 21:25–26; Rev 6:12–17)

The prophet Joel explicitly prophesies that these celestial disturbances will happen “before the Day of the Lord comes” (Joel 2:31). For the ungodly, the celestial disturbances signal impending wrath (Luke 21:26). It is also graphically depicted in the sixth seal (Rev 6:15–17). But for believers, it is a signal to “stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near” (Luke 21:28).

RESURRECTION AND RAPTURE

Christ will then appear in the sky in all his splendid glory and his angels “will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”(Matt 24:31). Paul expands on this gathering using explicit resurrection and rapture language (1 Thess 4:13–18). Between the sixth and seventh seal, the book of Revelation depicts the raptured as “a great multitude that no one could number” who were “the ones who have come out of the great tribulation” (Rev 7:9, 14). This is followed by the onset of God’s judgment (Rev 8:1–6).

DAY OF THE LORD’S WRATH

The prophets describe this period as righteous judgment, vengeful, fiery, dreadful, inescapable, bloody, destructive, and decisive (e.g. Joel 2:28–3:21; Isa 2:10–22; 13:6–13; Obad 15; Zeph 1:1–18). Jesus, Paul, and Peter warn these judgments are for the ungodly (Matt 24:37–41; 1 Thess 5:1–11; 2 Pet 3:1–18). On the same day the rapture occurs, the day of the Lord’s wrath begins, just as it was in the days of Noah and Lot (Luke 17:22–37; cf. 2 Thess 1:5–10). The book of Revelation teaches that the wrath begins at the breaking of the seventh seal, which contains the trumpet and bowl judgments (Rev 8–9, 15–16).

In light of this sober teaching, it is imperative that we spiritually prepare our hearts to be “overcomers” for what may soon come to pass, because Jesus warned:

“Remember, I have told you ahead of time.” —Matt 24:25

[Daniel 11:36]

Many of us were told that the church will be “raptured out of here before the Antichrist’s arrival.”

 

You need to  believe this scriptural truth .... the Lord will take out all believers just before He brings His wath and judgment upon the earth

Those who are left will have to repent during the 7 year tribulation period on order to be saved [Revelation 6:12-17]

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

the Lord will take out all believers just before He brings His wath and judgment upon the earth

Those who are left will have to repent during the 7 year tribulation period on order to be saved [Revelation 6:12-17]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Daniel 11:36, indeed the Lord will take out (rapture) all believers just before He brings His wrath and judgment upon the earth. However, He does this at some point in the second half of the week after the great tribulation is cut short. This takes place at His second coming (parousia).

Heb 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There is only a second parousia of Christ not a third parousia of Christ.

The Greek word parousia is translated "coming" and means "arrival and continuing presence." There are many instances where we find Christ's second coming being spoken of. Here are a few.

1) It involves the resurrection and rapture of His elect

1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2) The disciples asked to know what signs would precede Christ's arrival and continuing presence

Mat 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world?

3) Jesus said that His arrival and continuing presence would be unmistakable

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

4) Jesus says that like in the days of Noah the world will be going about business as usual until the day of the arrival and continuing presence of Christ in which the saints are raptured and God's wrath begins to fall upon the earthdwellers

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.

5) Paul says the next in the order of resurrections is those who are Christ's at His arrival and continuing presence

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (parousia).

6) The day of Christ involves the arrival and continuing presence of Christ and our gathering together unto Him. It will not come until the falling away and the man of sin be revealed

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

7) We should abide in Him so that we will not be ashamed before Him at His arrival and continuing presence

1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

There is only one future parousia of Christ. He doesn't have a coming before the week begins (1Thes 4:15) and another one seven years later (Matt 24:27), that is only fantasy. Both of these reference the same coming. They both take place at the same time. As Jesus said, His arrival takes place after the great tribulation and is portended by the cosmic sign of the sun, moon, and stars going dark. This begins the day of the Lord and the day of Christ.

Jesus here describes His arrival at His one and only second coming

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Hallelujah

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

 

13) We, the elect, will be persecuted unto death. The slaughter of the saints will be so bad that Jesus said "When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

 

16) He will resurrect the dead in Christ and change those believers who are alive and remain.

17) He will send forth the angels to catch up, rapture, both those who were resurrected and those who were alive and remaining.

 

Hi Steve,

Thank you for writing your thoughts in point form. I agree with a lot of what you have written. However there are a couple of points I would like you to please back up with scripture.

1. God`s elect. Israel is also called God`s elect, so can you give scripture/s to back up your thoughts that it is the B/C?

2. God`s purpose. What purpose do you see that the B/C has to go through the trib?

Thank you, Marilyn.