50 Reasons for the Pre-tribulation Rapture

[Justin Adams]

Most of the scholars way back that put scripture to paper were of a doctrine you would not follow today.
We should not presume to limit the Lord. He uses whom He uses. When He chooses.

At least 500 M were killed by Rome, tens of M Israelis were also killed. Numbers mean nothing to the Lord of ALL Creation.

If Yahweh means 144 k then that is what I will say. If this means something else i.e. symbolic, no problem to me.

You have a very fluid ax to grind with that false pre-trib JESUIT doctrine. Do you homework and see. Do not wave years around either - they again, prove nothing.

Just remember this gentle warning: if you are wrong, and you are, you will be held accountable. Not to me, but to the Lord of Lords.

I will say no more on this particular matter to you Marv. Thanks for the conversation.

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Justin Adams

[Quasar93]

34 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

This is the new version.

 

Hi sis,

Where mine is written by Dr. Walvoord himself, how do you konw, the one written by the author of the book uou now have is from him.?  Never mind, I see his name on the bottom of the book. Wow!  My eyes are bad!  I'm waiting for my new glasses from the optometrist now1  My apology.

 

Quasar93

Edited December 17, 2017 by Quasar93

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

 

Hi sis,

Where mine is written by Dr. Walvoord himself, how do you konw, the one written by the author of the book uou now have is from him.?  Never mind, I see his name on the bottom of the book. Wow!  My eyes are bad!  I'm waiting for my new glasses from the optometrist now1  My apology.

 

Quasar93

This book is also from Dr. Walvoord but refined and updated by Philip E. Rawley and Mark Hitchcock. Go to Amazon and look inside the book. It is very good. I think you would really enjoy it.

[Quasar93]

21 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

This book is also from Dr. Walvoord but refined and updated by Philip E. Rawley and Mark Hitchcock. Go to Amazon and look inside the book. It is very good. I think you would really enjoy it.

 

There is little doubt I would indeed enjoy the book, sis.  Bit among other things, I'm relegated to reading most everything with a magnifying glass now.  At least until I get my new glasses.  In addition to that, in my 94 years, I have done a great deal of reading, and what the Holy Spirit has taught me, I do my best now, to share it with others.

 

Quasar93

Edited December 17, 2017 by Quasar93

[Quasar93]

13 hours ago, brakelite said:

I could respond to each individual point made, directly refute several, cast doubt on many, and dismiss some as nonsense. 

However, I neither have the time nor patience to deal with each point made, but I will propose two of my own, which if true automatically dismiss the majority of those points you have presented.

1. Has it occurred to you that we are called to be witnesses to the punishment of the wicked just as Noah, Lot, Rahab, and the first Christian generation were prior to 70ad in the destruction of Jerusalem?

2. 

Matthew 24:37-41  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now please note carefully what Jesus is saying here. First, the second coming will be affected in precisely the same way as the great flood. The unrighteous will not be aware of the signs of the times, they shall be living at ease, living life as normal with little or no thought of eternity, when they shall be taken all away.

Let us go to the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke. You will note that Luke adds a little more detail giving a slightly different perspective.

Luke 17:26-37  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.  In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.  Remember Lot’s wife.  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.  I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The people that Matthew says are taken away,  Luke adds that they are destroyed. Thus the ‘taken away’ aspect or context of what Jesus is telling His disciples equates to death or destruction. This is borne out later in Luke’s passage when the disciples ask Him, “where are they taken to?” Jesus answer concerning the gathering of eagles around the carcasse echoes the following:

Revelation 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I am beginning to think that being left behind isn’t such a bad alternative. But we shall see. We will now look at another passage and see how consistent Jesus is regarding the subject.

Matthew 13:24-30 ¶  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

A little later Jesus explains the parable to His disciples.

Matthew 13:37-42  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

So let us recap the main points:

The second coming of Jesus Christ is in like manner as the great flood. All scriptures that so many claim as pertaining  to a separate rapture event other than the second coming are deluding themselves. They occur simultaneously.

The wicked, who in Noah’s day were living their normal everyday lives in ignorance and sin, were all taken away by the flood (Matthew 24:39) therefore so also will the wicked be at the second coming.

They are taken away to their ultimate death, or destruction. (Luke 17:27,29)

The concept of the wicked being taken is repeated many times. (Matt. 24:39-41; Luke 17:34-36)

The taking away or removal of the wicked to be destroyed comes before the gathering of the righteous.

Now, let me ask a question. In Noah’s day, after the flood had removed the wicked from the face of the earth and destroyed them all, who was left behind?

Genesis 7:23  And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Who was it that was left behind when fire and brimstone fell from heaven and destroyed Sodom and the other cities of the plain? Was it not Lot and his two daughters? The same could be asked of the survivors of Jericho and Jerusalem. Who were taken first?

 

The fact of the matter is, the late Dr. John Walvoord was the former President of Dallas Theological Seminary/  Who also, as a profesor there for many years before, taught the pre-trib rapture of the Church.  Points he made, you claim the ability to refute and that some others as nothing but nonsense.  The following is what he had written about.  Let me see your Scriptural support to refute any o it.

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church 

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar

Edited December 17, 2017 by Quasar93

[missmuffet]

35 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

 

There is little doubt I would indeed enjoy the book, sis.  Bit among other things, I'm relegated to reading most everything with a magnifying glass now.  At least until I get my new glasses.  In addition to that, in my 94 years, I have done a great deal of reading, and what the Holy Spirit has taught me, I do my best now, to share it with others.

 

Quasar93

I know how that is as far as reading with a magnifying glass. Have you tried reading glasses? I will add that this most recent book of Revelation which was originally written by Dr. Walvoord is excellent. One of my favorite books. Although I do know that you are already very knowledgeable.

[4LdKHVCzRDj2]

3 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Why keep posting about the false pre-trib stuff?

And why people cares so much about it?! Does it really matter that much?! Or is it just the pleasure to generate vain discussions and dissensions?!

I am not telling this directly to you, but to all.

"But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife." - 2 Timothy 2:23

 

I just know that the Lord Jesus Christ will come, when or at what time I am not sure.

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only." - Matthew 24:36

 

Maybe this is the reason we cannot reach to a conclusion about this. And I'd rather not discuss it any further.

"For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." - 1 Corinthians 14:33

 

Glory to God! Amen.

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, 4LdKHVCzRDj2 said:

I just know that the Lord Jesus Christ will come, when or at what time I am not sure.

Hello.

It is very important for the believer to know that he or she must prepare for tribulation by the world's systems. That we must know that we shall experience troubles at the hand of the anti-Christ system; we should be aware that there is no pre-trib rapture. We will have to go thru a great deal of trials before the time of the second coming. The pre-trib rapture is taught at most seminars and few dare to oppose it because they are shunned. Pre-trib has and will continue to be a real money-spinner. It is just so wrong. 

Imagine not being able to buy or sell. Imagine being killed for your beliefs. It sound really bad, but the Lord promises to look after His sheep that do not betray Him in order to survive.

[Quasar93]

45 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I know how that is as far as reading with a magnifying glass. Have you tried reading glasses? I will add that this most recent book of Revelation which was originally written by Dr. Walvoord is excellent. One of my favorite books. Although I do know that you are already very knowledgeable.

 

I've had either bifocals or trifocals for the past 50 years, which, of course. are reading lenses.  My concentrated studies of prophecy and eschatology have been over the past 35 years, to say nothing of my over all studies in all facets of the Scriptures, of an additional 45 years.

 

Quasar93 

[missmuffet]

21 minutes ago, Quasar93 said:

 

I've had either bifocals or trifocals for the past 50 years, which, of course. are reading lenses.  My concentrated studies of prophecy and eschatology have been over the past 35 years, to say nothing of my over all studies in all facets of the Scriptures, of an additional 45 years.

 

Quasar93 

I have always had progressive lens. Most of the drug stores and grocery stores have reading glasses in different strengths when you are waiting for your real glasses. My dad used to use a magnifying glass as well to read when his glasses were not available. He was born in 1898 and a vet of WW1  I really do love that "Revelation" book. You should take a look at it on Amazon. I originally read the Revelation book that was published a long time ago and that is one of the reasons I have gone to pretribulation.