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Quasar93

Perhaps today: The imminent coming of Jesus Christ

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Diaste

The Church has been under trials and tribulations since Pentecost. What is new.

What is the decree to Daniel's people and holy city? 70 Sevens are given to you to receive six tasks to do.

Has Israel received these six tasks and have they done them. For this is what the 70 Sevens are all about. Accepting their Messiah.

Please show me how many past believers have seen the A/C and False Prophet and been under their authority. Zero.. How many have been under the Wiles of the Devil? All.

Since we are one Body, should not we all be treated the same. The same trials and tribulations. Yet a new mix is coming. Different from everything else.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

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Oh. I thought Peter and company were Israelites... No Greek, or Jew but all one body in Yeshuah. Completed. Finished. Accompli.

100 million believers tortured and killed by Rome up until 1798 when Napoleon destroyed the church and papacy.

Now Vatican has arisen again, and maybe the second beast will come from the ashes of the first; whence the first was smitten by the sword. Maybe?

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On 12/24/2017 at 6:51 AM, Diaste said:

I don't think I understand the gist of Romans 11:25. Could you expand for me, please?

Others no doubt have a different view of the meaning, but here's how I interpret it...

A mystery is something that was hidden in the Old Testament, and revealed in the New Testament. Paul was given the revelation and honor of revealing it. Because of Israel's national rejection of their Messiah, that blindness in part was directed towards them. Meaning, God would not let most see that they error-ed in their rejection (nationally) until they call upon the name of Jesus during the last half of the tribulation. Of course some will come to Christ during this long period of time, but the nation and majority will not, and will remain under the old covenant, law and sacrifices.

This will stay in effect all during the age of Grace (church age), Gentiles grafted into the Jew's, and until the last person on earth is to be saved, and God tells His Son to go get His Bride.

That's my interpretation of what it says anyway.

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23 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Others no doubt have a different view of the meaning, but here's how I interpret it...

A mystery is something that was hidden in the Old Testament, and revealed in the New Testament. Paul was given the revelation and honor of revealing it. Because of Israel's national rejection of their Messiah, that blindness in part was directed towards them. Meaning, God would not let most see that they error-ed in their rejection (nationally) until they call upon the name of Jesus during the last half of the tribulation. Of course some will come to Christ during this long period of time, but the nation and majority will not, and will remain under the old covenant, law and sacrifices.

This will stay in effect all during the age of Grace (church age), Gentiles grafted into the Jew's, and until the last person on earth is to be saved, and God tells His Son to go get His Bride.

That's my interpretation of what it says anyway.

Sounds good to me. :D

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On 12/17/2017 at 10:39 PM, Quasar93 said:

The New Testament teaching that Christ could return and rapture His church at any-moment, without prior signs or warning (i.e., imminency), is such a powerful argument for pretribulationism that it is one of the most fiercely attacked doctrines by pre-trib opponents. Non-pretribulationists sense that if the New Testament teaches imminency, then a pre-trib rapture is virtually assured.

DEFINITION OF IMMINENCY

What is the biblical definition of imminency? Dr. Renald Showers defines and describes imminence as follows:

1) An imminent event is one which is always "hanging overhead, is constantly ready to befall or overtake one; close at hand in its incidence." ("imminent," The Oxford English Dictionary, 1901, V, 66.) Thus, imminence carries the sense that it could happen at any moment. Other things may happen before the imminent event, but nothing else must take place before it happens. If something else must take place before an event can happen, then that event is not imminent. In other words, the necessity of something else taking place first destroys the concept of imminency.

2) Since a person never knows exactly when an imminent event will take place, then he cannot count on a certain amount of time transpiring before the imminent event happens. In light of this, he should always be prepared for it to happen at any moment.

3) A person cannot legitimately set or imply a date for its happening. As soon as a person sets a date for an imminent event he destroys the concept of imminency, because he thereby is saying that a certain amount of time must transpire before that event can happen. A specific date for an event is contrary to the concept that the event could happen at any moment.

4) A person cannot legitimately say that an imminent event will happen soon. The term "soon" implies that an event must take place "within a short time (after a particular point of time specified or implied)." By contrast, an imminent event may take place within a short time, but it does not have to do so in order to be imminent. As I hope you can see by now, "imminent" is not equal to "soon."1

A. T. Pierson has noted that, "Imminence is the combinatioin of two conditions, viz,: certainty and uncertainty. By an imminent event we mean one which is certain to occur at some time, uncertain at what time."2

IMMINENCY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

The fact that Christ could return, but may not soon, at any moment, yet without the necessity of signs preceeding His return requires the kind of imminence taught by the pre-trib position and is a strong support for pretribulationism.

What New Testament passages teach this truth? Those verses stating that Christ could return at any moment, without warning and those instructing believers to wait and look for the Lord's coming teach the doctrine of imminence. Note the following New Testament passages:

1 Corinthians 1:7-"awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,"

1 Corinthians 16:22-"Maranatha."

Philippians 3:20-"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;"

Philippians 4:5-"The Lord is near."

1 Thessalonians 1:10-"to wait for His Son from heaven,"

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18-"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."

1 Thessalonians 5:6-"so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober."

1 Timothy 6:14-"that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Titus 2:13-"looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;"

Hebrews 9:28-"so Christ . . . shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

James 5:7-9-"Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. . . . for the coming of the Lord is at hand. . . . behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."

1 Peter 1:13 -"fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Jude 21-"waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

Revelation 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20-"'I am coming quickly!'"

Revelation 22:17, 20-"And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' And let the one who hears say, 'Come.'"

"He who testifies to these things says, 'Yes, I am coming quickly.' Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

It is significant that all of the above passages relate to the rapture and speak of the Lord's coming as something that could occur at any-moment, that it is imminent. This is why believers are waiting for a person-Jesus Christ-not an event or series of events such as those related to the tribulation leading up to Christ's second advent in which He returns to the earth and remins for His millennial reign.

IMMINENCE AND PRETRIBULATIONISM

As we consider the above passages, we note that Christ may come at any moment, that the rapture is actually imminent. Only pretribulationism can give a full, literal meaning to such an any-moment event. Other rapture views must redefine imminence more loosely than the New Testamnet would allow. Dr. Walvoord declares, "The exhortation to look for 'the glorious appearing' of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs."3 If the pre-trib view of imminence is not accepted, then it would make sense to look for signs related to events of the tribulation (i.e., the anti-christ, the two witnesses, etc.) and not for Christ Himself. But the New Testament, as demonstrated above, uniformly instructs the church to look for the coming of Christ, while tribulation saints are told to look for signs.

The New Testament exhortation to be comforted by the Lord's coming (John 14:1; 1 Thess. 4:18) would no longer have meaning if believers first had to pass through any part of the tribulation. Instead, comfort would have to await passage through the events of the tribulation. No, the church has been given a "Blessed Hope," in part, because our Lord's return is truly imminent.

MARANATHA!

The early church had a special greeting for one another, as recorded in 1 Corinthians 16:22, which was "Maranatha!" Maranatha consists of three Aramaic words: "Mar" ("Lord"), "ana" ("our"), and "tha" ("come"), meaning "our Lord, come." As with other New Testament passages, Maranatha only makes sense if an any-moment or imminent coming is understood. Such an understanding supports the pre-trib position.

No wonder these ancient Christians coined such a unique greeting which reflects an eager expectation of the Blessed Hope as a very real presence in their everyday lives. The life of the church today could only be improved if "Maranatha" were to return as a sincere greeting on the lips of an expectant people. Maranatha!

From:   http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/tt7.html

By Thomas Ice


Quasar93 

One thing must be understood. Imminent in God's terms versus man's terms.

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IS THE DOCTRINE OF IMMINENCE TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE? 

by Sheila Sternberg

The generally accepted definition of imminence is that Jesus could come "at any moment" meaning there are NO signs to occur, NO prophecies to be fulfilled before Jesus returns for the rapture of the church. However...

Christ predicted the destruction of the Temple (Luke 21:6, Matt. 24:2, Mark 13:2.) He also predicted the coming of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8.) Could He return before these things were fulfilled?

Jesus told Peter that he would get old and die (John 21:18-19.) Could His coming be imminent as long as Peter was still alive?(Peter was part of the church, wasn't he? Matt. 16:18 & Acts.) Peter even instructed us to wait for and hasten the coming day of God (2 Peter 3:12.) How can we rush a day which may begin at any moment? Is it possible that the Lord's "slowness" (vs. 9) is directly linked to His command for us to... 
 

  • Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
    Matt. 28:19-20


  • In Matt.24:14, Jesus tells us that the gospel will be preached in all of the world as a witness to all the nations BEFORE the end comes. It is obvious from Rev. 7:9 that the job was completed; and Acts 1:8 suggests that it is done by His servants after being baptized in the Holy Spirit. 

Some people believe that Jesus teaches that His return is imminent in John 14:2-3. 
 

    • In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

  • Does Jesus, in this passage, mention that His coming could be "at any moment" or does He merely teach His disciples that He will be coming back for them? Just a few days earlier, He had told this same group of men of wars and rumors of wars, of the abomination of desolation, of the great tribulation, of signs in the sun, moon, and stars. 
     
    • And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:28

    Is it possible, as some believe, that the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) was meant only for the Jews and John 14 was meant only for the church when BOTH were spoken to the same group of men only days apart? 

Some pretribulationists believe that the seven churches written to in Revelation 2 and 3 represent not only seven churches in existence when the letters from Christ were written, but also represent seven periods of Church history. (But since we all want to be included in the Philadelphia church, it must overlap the Laodicean church in order to have the Philadelphian church alive at the rapture.) Little do these sincere pretribulationists realize that by espousing this historical period view of the churches, they inadvertently deny the doctrine of imminence in that the return of Jesus could not have been imminent during the Thyatira period, the Smyrna period, etc. Not until the Philadelphia/Laodicean period could His coming be said to be imminent.

The prophecy of the seventieth week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24) deals with Jerusalem and the Jews. Could Jesus' return to rapture His church be imminent prior to 1948 when the Jews returned to Israel, or, for that matter, 1967 when they recaptured Jerusalem? This argument should receive even more weight considering pretribulationists claim that the seventieth week (called by them, "the tribulation") deals not with the church, but exclusively with the Jews (Dan 9:24.) 


In answer to His disciples question in Matt. 24:3, "What shall be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?"  He did not tell them that His coming would be signless or imminent. He told of wars and rumors of wars, etc. Then He said,

As soon as [the fig tree's] branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also when you see all these things, you know that He is near, at the very gates.

In other words, we will not know the exact day or hour, but when these things begin happening, His coming is so near that the generation to see the signs will not die before His return. Could His coming be imminent BEFORE these things have happened?(Matt. 24:32-34,36; Luke 21:28) 


Many pretribbers quote verses about the "thief in the night" to support their "at any moment" doctrine. In Revelation 3:3 written to the church at Sardis (not Philadelphia, not Laodecia), Jesus says, 
 

    • "Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you."

  • However, it is "the day of the Lord" which comes like a thief. 
     
    • "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10. "For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." 1 Thessalonians 5:2.

But when we keep reading, we find, "But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief." (vs.4)

It is in this context that we are commanded not to sleep, but to watch.(vs. 6-7; Mark 13:36)

Now if references to the rapture coming "as a thief in the night" mean that the rapture comes at the beginning of the Day of the Lord (which I believe is the accurate chronology) then what do we do with Acts 2:20 and Joel 2:31 placing the sun turning dark and the moon to blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord? That wouldn't make the rapture signless and imminent would it? 

Could it be merely a coincidence that this is the very sign Jesus described would precede His coming? 
 

    • "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt. 24:29-31.

This coinciding of the Day of the Lord and the rapture is spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:1-4.

    • "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

       

 

 

Could the rapture be imminent before Peter died?

John 21:18-19

Could the rapture be imminent before the temple was destroyed?

Lu 21:6, Mt 24:2, Mk 13:2

Could the rapture be imminent before Israel became a nation in 1948?

Daniel 9:24

Can rapture be imminent if "the Antichrist" must be revealed first?

2 Th 2:1-4

Can the rapture be imminent before the sun and moon grow dark and the signs described by our Lord come to pass?

Luke 21:28

According to Luke 21,

it is only  
"when these things begin to take place" that we can
"look up and raise your heads,
because your redemption is drawing near."

  • Brilliant! 1

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