Conditional Salvation

[Guest shiloh357]

21 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I know, I know... But this isn't so much about once saved always saved (OSAS) as you may be thinking.

This passage is talking about Israel in general, and the Jewish peoples in particular, at the mid point of the tribulation during the 'abomination of desolation'. 

Luke 17: 33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

I've been reading several commentaries on this verse, and the expositor's and scholar's seem to agree. That during this time when the Jew's flee the Antichrist, if any shall try to preserve their mortal human life, by denying Christ or their religion to preserve their mortal life, is to lose their eternal Salvation in the day of trail. Does anyone disagree with my understanding of what this verse implies? 

If my interpretation is biblical, that means there is at least one instance where Salvation is conditional. Does anyone have another interpretation that disagrees with how I'm understanding this verse?

What Jesus is saying is that those who seek to save their lives, who seek to preserve themselves from that calamity will perish because they are operating from their own efforts.

I think of all of these "preppers"  who are preparing for an EMP grid-down situation, or the economy going belly up and the collapse of our government and the chaos that will ensue from that, thinking that if they have saved enough food and water and have amassed enough gear that they will be protected.   There will be those who seek to "prep" if you will, during the Tribulation and they will simply be slaughtered along with everyone else.

But those who put their faith in Jesus, while they may lose their physical lives, will be preserved eternally and abide forever with the Lord.  Salvation is never conditional.

[JohnD]

Revelation 3:10 (AV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Daniel 12:11–12 (AV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Revelation 12–13 (AV)
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[ghtan]

On 12/20/2017 at 1:21 AM, Dennis1209 said:

I know, I know... But this isn't so much about once saved always saved (OSAS) as you may be thinking.

This passage is talking about Israel in general, and the Jewish peoples in particular, at the mid point of the tribulation during the 'abomination of desolation'. 

Luke 17: 33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

I've been reading several commentaries on this verse, and the expositor's and scholar's seem to agree. That during this time when the Jew's flee the Antichrist, if any shall try to preserve their mortal human life, by denying Christ or their religion to preserve their mortal life, is to lose their eternal Salvation in the day of trail. Does anyone disagree with my understanding of what this verse implies? 

If my interpretation is biblical, that means there is at least one instance where Salvation is conditional. Does anyone have another interpretation that disagrees with how I'm understanding this verse?

That verse is used not only in an end-time context in 17:33 but also more generally e.g. in Lk 9:24. Salvation is conditional upon us remaining true to the faith, as Col. 1:23 makes clear.

[Dennis1209]

On 12/20/2017 at 8:33 AM, shiloh357 said:

What Jesus is saying is that those who seek to save their lives, who seek to preserve themselves from that calamity will perish because they are operating from their own efforts.

I think of all of these "preppers"  who are preparing for an EMP grid-down situation, or the economy going belly up and the collapse of our government and the chaos that will ensue from that, thinking that if they have saved enough food and water and have amassed enough gear that they will be protected.   There will be those who seek to "prep" if you will, during the Tribulation and they will simply be slaughtered along with everyone else.

But those who put their faith in Jesus, while they may lose their physical lives, will be preserved eternally and abide forever with the Lord.  Salvation is never conditional.

That make good sense. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it and formed a false opinion.

[Guest Teditis]

On ‎12‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 12:21 PM, Dennis1209 said:

I know, I know... But this isn't so much about once saved always saved (OSAS) as you may be thinking.

This passage is talking about Israel in general, and the Jewish peoples in particular, at the mid point of the tribulation during the 'abomination of desolation'. 

Luke 17: 33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

I've been reading several commentaries on this verse, and the expositor's and scholar's seem to agree. That during this time when the Jew's flee the Antichrist, if any shall try to preserve their mortal human life, by denying Christ or their religion to preserve their mortal life, is to lose their eternal Salvation in the day of trail. Does anyone disagree with my understanding of what this verse implies? 

If my interpretation is biblical, that means there is at least one instance where Salvation is conditional. Does anyone have another interpretation that disagrees with how I'm understanding this verse?

It doesn't seem to me that the verse is referring to Christians (saved people), ergo it's about human-kind in general.

People in general, seek other ways to "save" their lives and "make-good", than seeking out God for the Gift of Jesus'

Atonement.

This verse has nothing to do with Christians losing Salvation.

[Dennis1209]

On 12/19/2017 at 1:53 PM, Rick_Parker said:

One cannot be saved simply by being a Jew or a Hebrew. There is only one way into heaven, and that is through faith in the finished Work of Jesus Christ. Even in the Tribulation period, that will be the only way. Still, because of the Mark of the Beast, if one should take it, be they Jew or Gentile, they will be lost.

So, if I'm understanding correctly by your comment and others... There are some conditions that you can lose your Salvation, of the possibility thereof. One being accepting the mark of the beast, two being committing the unpardonable sin, three denying Jesus as your Lord and Savior to preserve your mortal life, to name a few? If that's true, that makes Salvation conditional doesn't it? 

I really want to get this set in my heart and mind. I know this topic is a centuries long debate, with great scholars and expositors on both sides of the issue. 

Hebrews Chapter 6:, even makes OSAS a little more complicated in my mind.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Dennis1209

[Dennis1209]

On 12/20/2017 at 8:33 AM, shiloh357 said:

But those who put their faith in Jesus, while they may lose their physical lives, will be preserved eternally and abide forever with the Lord.  Salvation is never conditional.

And if by chance, someone would deny Christ as their Savior to preserve their mortal physical lives? As I believe the scripture is referencing? 

[Dennis1209]

11 minutes ago, Teditis said:

It doesn't seem to me that the verse is referring to Christians (saved people), ergo it's about human-kind in general.

People in general, seek other ways to "save" their lives and "make-good", than seeking out God for the Gift of Jesus'

Atonement.

This verse has nothing to do with Christians losing Salvation.

OK, I'm not arguing, it's a critical issue with me that I want to get firmly cemented in my mind and belief. 

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

So, if I'm understanding correctly by your comment and others... There are some conditions that you can lose your Salvation, of the possibility thereof. One being accepting the mark of the beast, two being committing the unpardonable sin, three denying Jesus as your Lord and Savior to preserve your mortal life, to name a few? If that's true, that makes Salvation conditional doesn't it? 

I really want to get this set in my heart and mind. I know this topic is a centuries long debate, with great scholars and expositors on both sides of the issue. 

Hebrews Chapter 6:, even makes OSAS a little more complicated in my mind.

Not even close to what I said. First off and the most important point is that the Holy Spirit will not be sealed in the believer’s heart after the Rapture, Who is the promised way the the Lord keeps us saved. We cannot lose our salvation now nor will we be here during the Tribulation. During the Trib, the HS will work as He did before the Cross, which was to move to and fro upon individuals to help them. But He will not guarantee salvation like He does now.

[Dennis1209]

4 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

Not even close to what I said. First off and the most important point is that the Holy Spirit will not be sealed in the believer’s heart after the Rapture, Who is the promised way the the Lord keeps us saved. We cannot lose our salvation now nor will we be here during the Tribulation. During the Trib, the HS will work as He did before the Cross, which was to move to and fro upon individuals to help them. But He will not guarantee salvation like He does now.

Sorry, I was lumping what I thought you meant and what I interpreted others as saying.