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naominash

Can you lose your Salvation?

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49 minutes ago, naominash said:

You can say that again.

So far, the eternal security camp seems to be holding up better.

Shalom, naominash.

That's because you either have a Father who gives you eternal life or you don't!

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I am not in the eternal security camp. While I believe that God will never kick you out, and that once you are saved there is no sin that you can do that will cause God to forsake you, I believe the doctrine of free choice gives you the ability to walk away of your own free will. In fact, I think that eternal salvation goes right in the face of free will, I don't believe you turn into a robot as soon as you become a believer.

I believe Jesus addressed this in at least 2 parables, the prodigal son and the seeds. In the prodigal son parable, the father, would be God, and the son, a believer (son of God) and the son chose to walk away from his father, he left for a time. Disowned Him. At that point the son walked away from his family, was no longer a "member" but when he came back, His father welcomed him back with open arms.

In the parable of the seeds, it lists several types of seeds. The seeds that fell on the path-never grew roots. These were ones who heard the message, but never acted on it, never became christians. But there were those that fell on the rocks and the weeds, both started growing-which to me, means both became christians. But the plants in both areas died, for different reasons, but still died. These show people who became christians, but for one reason or another allowed their faith to die.

Anyway, I also don't spend a lot of time debating the subject, because to often christians allow it to become a dividing line, and I don't feel like it should be, because theres not a lot of practical application. Let me explain why:

if you see someone who has claimed to be a christian, but is no longer acting like it, there are only 3 possibilies as to why.

1: they were never saved to begin with. This can be true regardless of what side of the fence you believe, OSAS or free choice.

2: they are backslidden christians. As in they are still saved, but have simply backsliden. Again, this can be possible no matter what side of the fence your on.

3: they have walked away from their salvation. This is only possible from one perspective.

And in all 3 cases, what is the solution? The solution is to pray for them and to witness to them and try to get them back on the right track. Thats right, in all 3 scenarios, the answer is exactly the same. How they got there, is irrelevant, because only God knows the heart.

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14 hours ago, The_Patriot2017 said:

I am not in the eternal security camp. While I believe that God will never kick you out, and that once you are saved there is no sin that you can do that will cause God to forsake you, I believe the doctrine of free choice gives you the ability to walk away of your own free will. In fact, I think that eternal salvation goes right in the face of free will, I don't believe you turn into a robot as soon as you become a believer.rt.

That goes against the very nature of salvation.  When you are saved, you receive a new heart, a transformed heart that has a new set of desires to serve the Lord.  A transformed person, a new creation has nothing in them to prompt them to walk away from the Lord.   You have the power to, but no desire to.   You are still operating in free will.   God is not stopping anyone from walking away.   But there is nothing in the heart of a true Christian that wants to walk away.  

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I believe Jesus addressed this in at least 2 parables, the prodigal son and the seeds. In the prodigal son parable, the father, would be God, and the son, a believer (son of God) and the son chose to walk away from his father, he left for a time. Disowned Him. At that point the son walked away from his family, was no longer a "member" but when he came back, His father welcomed him back with open arms.

No, that doesn't work.  Because the father never disowned the son.   And the son never disowned the father. Nothing in the text states or even suggests that.    The son went off and lived on his own and came back home thinking he might be accepted as a slave, but the father had no intention of that.   He eagerly awaited his return and sill considered him a son.   The son did not have to re-join the family (get re-saved).

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In the parable of the seeds, it lists several types of seeds. The seeds that fell on the path-never grew roots. These were ones who heard the message, but never acted on it, never became christians. But there were those that fell on the rocks and the weeds, both started growing-which to me, means both became christians. But the plants in both areas died, for different reasons, but still died. These show people who became christians, but for one reason or another allowed their faith to die.

No, the only "saved" person represented in the four types of soil is the good soil from which there was a harvest.  In other two cases, many people assent to the Gospel message, but never embrace Jesus.   They may participate in the Christian "religion," live culturally as Christians, but they either apostatize back into the world or just continue living in the world caught up in the cares of the world and lusts for other things, while maintaining an empty profession about belonging to the Christian religion.

 

 

 

 

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I would add another thought about the good soil.  Many people want fire insurance, a Savior, but never surrender to Jesus as Lord of their lives.  They don't come back to Him with a grateful heart and bow down to Him after He freely saves them.  They just go their own way.  Part of being a Christian is following Jesus, and walking in the Spirit.  We don't just go our own way and do our own thing.  We want to live in close fellowship with Him. 

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I do not know how you become unborn .

Jesus described it as being " born again "  for a reason . The Lord was not given to hyperbolic statements , He meant what he said with great specificity . 

If anything he understated the case .

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On 12/22/2017 at 7:54 PM, naominash said:

I've been influenced a lot by reformed Protestant theology. A lot of them teach once saved, always saved because God initiates the salvation and keeps you saved.

But even Calvinist admit that some Scripture supports the Arminian view or that you choose to be saved and can choose to walk away from God and lose your salvation.

I don't know. I'm on the fence. I'm the perfect audience for a debate. 

Your thoughts?

Short answer, no. 

John 6:39, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

 

You did nothing to earn it therefore you can do nothing to lose what God's free gift and grace provided through the sacrifice of his only begotten son. 

 

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1 Corinthians 9:27
 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul a saved man of God, was he thinking OSAS 

Revelation 2:4-5
4  Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.       

Why do saints need to repent, this was a warning, imagine God kicking you out of his church(his kingdom)  Not Loving God is against God. Your spirit will be contrary to his. 

 

Galatians 5:4
 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Some one had grace and was falling from it. 
 

Hosea 9:15
 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Well it seem to read someone was losing  the Love of God

 

So I do see a person who chooses to not serve God after they became saved, that they really see that they have to give all to him or change completely, that is not

what they really truly wanted, and they want the worldly goods to mix into there new faith. So they just go back to the world and reject the love of God , they even come

against God for doing that.  Imagine going to heaven with that type of spirit.

So yes I think people can throw away the gift of God and not except it anymore, turn away, forsake, reject, and loose their salvation.
 

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On 12/30/2017 at 11:18 PM, The_Patriot2017 said:

I am not in the eternal security camp. While I believe that God will never kick you out, and that once you are saved there is no sin that you can do that will cause God to forsake you, I believe the doctrine of free choice gives you the ability to walk away of your own free will. In fact, I think that eternal salvation goes right in the face of free will, I don't believe you turn into a robot as soon as you become a believer.

I believe Jesus addressed this in at least 2 parables, the prodigal son and the seeds. In the prodigal son parable, the father, would be God, and the son, a believer (son of God) and the son chose to walk away from his father, he left for a time. Disowned Him. At that point the son walked away from his family, was no longer a "member" but when he came back, His father welcomed him back with open arms.

In the parable of the seeds, it lists several types of seeds. The seeds that fell on the path-never grew roots. These were ones who heard the message, but never acted on it, never became christians. But there were those that fell on the rocks and the weeds, both started growing-which to me, means both became christians. But the plants in both areas died, for different reasons, but still died. These show people who became christians, but for one reason or another allowed their faith to die.

Anyway, I also don't spend a lot of time debating the subject, because to often christians allow it to become a dividing line, and I don't feel like it should be, because theres not a lot of practical application. Let me explain why:

if you see someone who has claimed to be a christian, but is no longer acting like it, there are only 3 possibilies as to why.

1: they were never saved to begin with. This can be true regardless of what side of the fence you believe, OSAS or free choice.

2: they are backslidden christians. As in they are still saved, but have simply backsliden. Again, this can be possible no matter what side of the fence your on.

3: they have walked away from their salvation. This is only possible from one perspective.

And in all 3 cases, what is the solution? The solution is to pray for them and to witness to them and try to get them back on the right track. Thats right, in all 3 scenarios, the answer is exactly the same. How they got there, is irrelevant, because only God knows the heart.

Hey Patriot2017!

I agree with a lot of what you've said, and I'm not argumentative because I've struggled with this issue myself. So the following are just questions.

The prodigal son. He was born of his father. He was his son from his very birth. No matter what the son did or will do, nothing can take away from the fact that the son was once born from the father and will always be his son. Even if the son denies his father, by relationship, emotionally and biologically he will always be his fathers son. A son can't really choose to disown his father and can not be unborn can he? Again, I'm not trying to argue a point.

Backsliders. That's how I would like to have labeled myself before I sincerely repented and asked the Lord into my life again and confessed everything anew. However, researching backslid-den and backsliders, I only found about a dozen occurrences, all in the Old Testament. I find nothing dealing with the 'word' backsliding in the New Testament. I can think of a number of instances where I could use that word in New Testament scripture maybe, but it doesn't give me the idea of walking completely away? Do you have any insight on whether this is under the Old Covenant, and has any application to the New Covenant in the age which we live? Thanks.

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19 hours ago, Bible_Gazer said:

1 Corinthians 9:27
 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul a saved man of God, was he thinking OSAS 

The word in Greek for "outcast"  means, "disqualified for service."   Paul kept himself disciplined so that he was not disqualified to preach the Gospel due to a life that was inconsistent with his message.

Quote

 

Revelation 2:4-5
4  Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.       

Why do saints need to repent, this was a warning, imagine God kicking you out of his church(his kingdom)  Not Loving God is against God. Your spirit will be contrary to his. 

 

First of all, this was a message to a church not to a person.   The removal of the candlestick was not saying that God would remove their salvation.   He was referring to their presence as a church.   He was saying that if they did not repent and change course, they would, as a church/congregation cease to have any impact or presence in their community.  

And as far as repentance is concerned...  Repentance for all Christians should be daily.  It's just just something we did when we got saved.  We should always be repentant of our sins, because we still sin.   It has nothing to do with whether or not we are saved.
 

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Galatians 5:4
 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Some one had grace and was falling from it. 

 

The word for "fallen" in the Greek means to "lose one's mental grasp."   The Galatians were being deceived into thinking they had to keep the law in order to be saved.  Paul's point is that they had lost all understanding of what it means to be saved by grace.  They were taught that they had to keep the law in order to stay saved, that Jesus was not enough, that grace was not enough.
 

Quote

 

Hosea 9:15
 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

Well it seem to read someone was losing  the Love of God

 

That is talking about God's judgement on Israel for their sins.   It is not talking about New Testament salvation.
 

Quote

 

So I do see a person who chooses to not serve God after they became saved, that they really see that they have to give all to him or change completely, that is not what they really truly wanted, and they want the worldly goods to mix into there new faith. So they just go back to the world and reject the love of God , they even come   against God for doing that.  Imagine going to heaven with that type of spirit.

So yes I think people can throw away the gift of God and not except it anymore, turn away, forsake, reject, and loose their salvation.

 

You don't understand the transformational nature of salvation.   Those who think their salvation is just a matter of a change in status or just being moved from one side of the ledger to the other, don't understand that a truly saved person isn't going to walk away from the Lord.  Their heart is changed completely.   Some Christians either ignore that truth or underestimate the tranformational power that occurs when we are saved.

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