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The Imaginary Hispanic: What the Illegal War is About


Guest shiloh357

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Guest shiloh357
4 hours ago, Oh Hamburgers! said:

Yeah, clearly it's a pretty complicated problem. Setting aside the outlier opinions about immigrants (some will treat immigrants as walking votes, others might dislike them because of skin color):)

Yeah, that is a false accusation.  Our opposition to them has nothing to do with color.   Furthermore, our opposition is to ILLEGAL ALIENS, not immigrants.  There is necessary moral distinction that needs to be made between legitimate immigrants and illegal aliens. 

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I think most of us can agree that at the end of the day we want the same thing - we want the 'good' immigrants who pay taxes and contribute to the economy to come in, and we want to keep the 'bad' immigrants who draw on our resources or have criminal/dangerous histories. 

More precisely, we don't illegal aliens.  There are no "bad" immigrants.   There are immigrants and there are illegal aliens.  Again, that distinction is a morally necessary one to make.

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Obviously the million dollar question is how we bring in the good and keep out the bad.

We don't "bring" any of them in, good or bad.  We allow the immigrants in and we deny access to those who are illegal.

 

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My point is I don't see the wall doing a good enough job at keeping out the bad.

Which is completely unsubstantiated.  Other countries have walls to keep out illegals, too. 

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Shiloh you yourself said the ancient Romans could navigate mountains and rivers - that was my intended point of the comment, that the wall isn't going to be a solid wall covering the entire land barrier between our countries, it was going to rely on natural barriers at many points, which can and will be traversed by those desperate enough to enter the country.

Actually no.  The fact is that in those areas where a wall isn't possible (such as through a body of water), there are other kinds of surveillance that is possible.   But the point is that there are a lot of geological obstructions to the wall that can be overcome.  And since the Romans could do that with far less sophisticated technology than we have, we will be able to overcome at least some of those obstacles.

 

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You asked if I lock my doors or have security systems in my house - my answer is we do lock our doors but do not pay for a security system. My reason would be one I think applies to the border wall; the locked doors represent a cheap & effective way to protect my house from the majority of people who would try to enter uninvited. If I make a larger investment in a security system it's true it might prevent a fringe group of potential intruders, but at the end of the day if someone wants to break in they'll do it - security system or not. 

That's not the point.   The point I was making is that you don't want people coming into your home uninvited and deciding that your property is their property, too.  It's the principle that we all operate under on an every day basis.   If keeping our homes safe from intruders is important on a personal basis,  it follows that keeping those out of our country who think they are entitled to our wealth and the benefits of living here without having to contribute (and making us pay for their stay) without them having to pay in to the system, is pretty important.

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That's how I see the wall - we're investing in the deluxo-premium security package, but to the criminals who have an incentive to find a way into the country (drug trafficking, human trafficking, etc) it's not going to have an enormous impact on their ability to find a way in. We might keep out more poor would-be migrant workers with the wall, but the big fish will figure things out pretty quickly.

Actually we need that system and we need to end chain migration and the Visa lottery system.   We need every tool at our disposal to keep the illegals out and not let them in to be a drain on the system.

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That's why I think it's better to spend our time $$$ and resources on making it easier for the 'good ones' to get in, instead of trying to keep the 'bad ones' out...but that's a different conversation entirely

We are smart enough to multi-task.  We can curtail illegal aliens AND we can fix immigration.   It's not an either/or proposition.

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22 hours ago, Steve_S said:

It's really all in the purpose of the wall. Is it going to be built in a vacuum, i.e. planned, built, and left alone? Or it is going to be designed to be an obstacle? If it were designed as an obstacle, it would stop the vast majority of people who cross from crossing.

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I don't disagree with a home security system being synonymous, but the one thing you left out was that it would be complete with professionally trained armed guards. Could a very well funded and concerted group still manage to penetrate such a thing? Yes. However, most won't attempt it, particularly after the first few groups that aren't well equipped try and fail miserably. You can never stop smuggling, but you can make it incredibly difficult and costly.

Good point, I'm not familiar with the in-depth plans on what the wall will actually look like so it's hard to say how it's being planned. I agree if it is manned and funded properly as an obstacle it could be a good deterrent. That of course will be even more costly than simply making a big physical wall, and will require a LOT more manpower & money to keep running in tip top shape. 

However if I had to guess I think it will end up more a lip service thing, building the wall to say he did it, and I'd be surprised if it ends up getting enough funding to be truly effective. Time will tell I suppose. 

17 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Yeah, that is a false accusation.  Our opposition to them has nothing to do with color.   Furthermore, our opposition is to ILLEGAL ALIENS, not immigrants.  There is necessary moral distinction that needs to be made between legitimate immigrants and illegal aliens. 

I wasn't accusing your opposition as being about race, quite the opposite - I was setting aside the fringe oppositions (race hate being one of them) and focusing on feelings most people have about the issues. 

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More precisely, we don't illegal aliens.  There are no "bad" immigrants.   There are immigrants and there are illegal aliens.  Again, that distinction is a morally necessary one to make.

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We don't "bring" any of them in, good or bad.  We allow the immigrants in and we deny access to those who are illegal.

I think we're arguing semantics at this point - I was using 'good' and 'bad' as quick-hand for people from other countries we see as acceptable immigrants, and those who aren't. Same with 'bringing' them, I didn't mean literally, I mean making it easier for the people we want into the country to get in, and making it harder for the people we don't want to get in. 

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Which is completely unsubstantiated.  Other countries have walls to keep out illegals, too. 

I mean, sure physical walls work, but technology has advanced so far that the ability to get around a physical wall is as easy as it's ever been in history. The 'obstacle' idea Steve mentioned is where I see barriers in the future, but that's also going to be much, much more expensive than any physical wall might be, and will require manpower, upkeep, electrical infrastructure etc. And no matter how much we spend on a state-of-the-art barrier some will still find a way in. 

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That's not the point.   The point I was making is that you don't want people coming into your home uninvited and deciding that your property is their property, too.  It's the principle that we all operate under on an every day basis.   If keeping our homes safe from intruders is important on a personal basis,  it follows that keeping those out of our country who think they are entitled to our wealth and the benefits of living here without having to contribute (and making us pay for their stay) without them having to pay in to the system, is pretty important.

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Actually we need that system and we need to end chain migration and the Visa lottery system.   We need every tool at our disposal to keep the illegals out and not let them in to be a drain on the system.

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We are smart enough to multi-task.  We can curtail illegal aliens AND we can fix immigration.   It's not an either/or proposition.

So this idea that illegals drain the system & should be treated like intruders into our home is something I want to talk about. On some level yes we're going to have people get into the country, not pay for services, be supported by the state, and send money back across the border to family/Mexican businesses/whoever. I think that's something that we'll never be able to completely stop even if our wall is completely effective. 

The flip side of this is we find ways to allow for more legalized immigration, putting our resources into getting folks registered, so they can be taxed and pay for services they use. And guess what - if we allow more of these people to come in, then instead of a breadwinner working in the US and sending money back to Mexico to their family the entire family can come into America and be American. The money stays here, the family contributes, over time their ties to America strengthen. Instead of a workforce that can undercut minimum wage by being hired illegally regulations ensure companies can't exploit that sort of labor. 

I'm not saying it's easy - prices will go up for the average consumer who might be used to paying a certain price for produce that is being harvested right now by an illegal work force. It's also going to have large repercussions in local economies in the short term if more people arrive. But I think in the long run it's a much better solution, and personally I think it's something we'll have to face regardless. Building a wall in my opinion only delays the inevitable. 

The other issue is the notion of draining resources. It's not something that illegals are exclusively responsible for. When you look at the nation's discretionary spending it's incredible to see how much we spend for things like medicare, heathcare, veteran's benefits, housing & community etc. We're talking 20% of discretionary spending! And then of course over half the nation's entire budget is going towards the military, which seems absurd to me when you consider how powerful the military is already. 

My point is there are already serious issues with our nations spending, when you consider what is 'draining resources'. WE are already draining tons of resources with our nations poor health habits & issues with weight. We're already draining tons of resources having such a large % of our money going towards the military that over $65 billion goes to veteran benefits, more than we spend on things like science, transportation, or food & agriculture. 

Illegals are an issue, but I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill when there are many more serious issues our country should be talking about.

I hope that helps give you some context on where I stand - I believe the wall will be ineffective at worst, extremely expensive at best, and the fact it's been such a focal point of the Trump presidency makes me question why he feels this warrants so much attention when there are so many other things this country needs to attend to that I think should take more of a priority. 

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Guest shiloh357
17 hours ago, Oh Hamburgers! said:

Good point, I'm not familiar with the in-depth plans on what the wall will actually look like so it's hard to say how it's being planned. I agree if it is manned and funded properly as an obstacle it could be a good deterrent. That of course will be even more costly than simply making a big physical wall, and will require a LOT more manpower & money to keep running in tip top shape. 

I don't think "expense" is really the opposition that most on the Left really have about the wall.  It is used as a pretext for opposing it.   Democrat programs are nothing if not mind blowingly expensive. 

The  whole "it's too expensive"  argument really fails when we look at the price tag associated with Democrat agendas.
 

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I wasn't accusing your opposition as being about race, quite the opposite - I was setting aside the fringe oppositions (race hate being one of them) and focusing on feelings most people have about the issues. 


 

Very well.

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I mean, sure physical walls work, but technology has advanced so far that the ability to get around a physical wall is as easy as it's ever been in history. The 'obstacle' idea Steve mentioned is where I see barriers in the future, but that's also going to be much, much more expensive than any physical wall might be, and will require manpower, upkeep, electrical infrastructure etc. And no matter how much we spend on a state-of-the-art barrier some will still find a way in. 

The illegals coming over there are not using advanced technology to do it.  This wall is going to be more than a physical structure.  It is going to be accompanied by technology.   Israel's security fence uses all kinds of technology and has different components to aid the fence in keeping out terrorists.

Nothing about the wall is going to be more expensive than letting in hundreds of thousands of illegals that we have to pay for.   The wall will not keep out immigrants.  It will keep out illegals.

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So this idea that illegals drain the system & should be treated like intruders into our home is something I want to talk about. On some level yes we're going to have people get into the country, not pay for services, be supported by the state, and send money back across the border to family/Mexican businesses/whoever. I think that's something that we'll never be able to completely stop even if our wall is completely effective. 

The wall will not eliminate all illegal aliens from coming into our country.  I don't think anyone is under the illusion that it would.   But we would not have the thousands and thousands coming over here that we have had in the past during the last administration.  But the wall, in conjunction with ending chain migration, and the Visa lottery system will stem the flow significantly.   

The security fence in Israel reduced terrorism coming out of the West Bank by 70%.  It doesn't stop all of it, but it has done an incredible job stemming the tide and the western borders of Israel are not longer porous, as they were before.

The same applies to this wall.  It will work in conjunction with other policies that will improve border security.  

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The flip side of this is we find ways to allow for more legalized immigration, putting our resources into getting folks registered, so they can be taxed and pay for services they use. And guess what - if we allow more of these people to come in, then instead of a breadwinner working in the US and sending money back to Mexico to their family the entire family can come into America and be American. The money stays here, the family contributes, over time their ties to America strengthen. Instead of a workforce that can undercut minimum wage by being hired illegally regulations ensure companies can't exploit that sort of labor. 

I agree, but that has to be done in conjunction with border security.   We can fix a broken immigration system that takes way too long to allow people to become citizens (that is the goal of immigration, after all) AND we can improve border security so that illegals are not taking away resources from citizens and immigrants. 

Why should a hard working immigrant who is paying taxes and playing by the rules have their tax money used to pay for us to feed and house illegals?  That is not fair!

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I'm not saying it's easy - prices will go up for the average consumer who might be used to paying a certain price for produce that is being harvested right now by an illegal work force. It's also going to have large repercussions in local economies in the short term if more people arrive. But I think in the long run it's a much better solution, and personally I think it's something we'll have to face regardless. Building a wall in my opinion only delays the inevitable. 

I don' think prices will go up.

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The other issue is the notion of draining resources. It's not something that illegals are exclusively responsible for. When you look at the nation's discretionary spending it's incredible to see how much we spend for things like medicare, heathcare, veteran's benefits, housing & community etc. We're talking 20% of discretionary spending! And then of course over half the nation's entire budget is going towards the military, which seems absurd to me when you consider how powerful the military is already. 

Those things are not draining the system.   You mentions veterans benefits.   Those don't drain the system.  They earned those benefits.  They paid in.   Stuff that Americans pay taxes for are not drain on the system.

It's people who draw on those services who don't pay into the system, who get food stamps and welfare and stuff like that, who never paid into the system they are the drain, not Americans who pay taxes and then use the benefits that they paid for.

And supporting the military is not absurd no matter how powerful it is.   The goal for our military is to be able to fight two wars at once and win both of them.   The idea is that we should be able to fight a foreign war and successfully repel an invasion of our homeland at the same time.   That is what the federal government is tasked with doing and it is far less expensive than some of ridiculous tripe the Democrats want like universally free college tuition and a single payer healthcare system.

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My point is there are already serious issues with our nations spending, when you consider what is 'draining resources'. WE are already draining tons of resources with our nations poor health habits & issues with weight. We're already draining tons of resources having such a large % of our money going towards the military that over $65 billion goes to veteran benefits, more than we spend on things like science, transportation, or food & agriculture. 

How is paying for Veterans benefits  a "serious issue with our nation's spending??"   For 8 years the Obama administration, typical liberal fashion, pretty much ignored the plight of our veterans, making sure they didn't get any help.  The socialist/Marxist approach to people like the Veterans is that they are a drain on the economy and just need to die.   They are consumers, not producers and so the government was content to let Veterans die while waiting for funds for needed treatment.  Day after day, week after week we heard about veterans dying due to preventable diseases and illness only because the VA under Obama's watch allowed it to happen, and always seemed to "lose" veterans' paperwork and made them fill out new forms and move to the back of the line.

To include veterans who served this country who paid with their lives and the lives of their families and paid with losing limbs and other injuries as a "drain" on our system is pretty despicable and disgraceful.  I am embarrassed that you would say such a thing.

 

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  Illegals are an issue, but I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill when there are many more serious issues our country should be talking about.

No, I am not. The illegals are a huge drain on our system and most of them should be deported and banned permanently from ever entering our country, even as legal immigrants.

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I hope that helps give you some context on where I stand - I believe the wall will be ineffective at worst, extremely expensive at best, and the fact it's been such a focal point of the Trump presidency makes me question why he feels this warrants so much attention when there are so many other things this country needs to attend to that I think should take more of a priority. 

It's what he campaigned on and it is what many, many, many Americans want him to pay attention to and fix. 

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