Looking for some opinions

[inchrist]

4 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

As I already said, Jesus never spoke that way

And how did He speak?

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The soul returns to God yes but Christ had to go to Sheol first to free the righteous dead who died before Him.

 Moses looked free to me at Christ's transfiguration then?

Further by implication that the body returns to dust; the Spirit returns to God....no holding period for body or Spirit 

 

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The righteous dead did not go to heaven before Christ since it is only through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that anyone can get to heaven. Elijah and Enoch were the only two exeptions to this and that is likely because they will be the Two Witnesses of Revelation. 

 "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" 

Can you please explain how Elijah from heaven wrote a letter to a king?

Please find me scripture actually stating Enoch went to heaven 

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One, Paradise (aka Abraham's Bosom, where those who were guaranteed a place in heaven went before Christ. Two, a prison for the damned to await judgment

Im still waiting for scripture two or three witnesses that hades is called paradise

Please notice  the Richman; it states  the following 

 In Hades he lifted up his eyes

In otherwords; in the grave he opened his eyes, and then saw Lazarus.

What happens at the resurrection? You open your eyes in the grave. 

See Daniel speaks of the resurrection of the just, and of the unjust:

"And many of them that sleep.... (their eyes are closed while sleeping)

.... in the dust of the earth  (their graves; buried "hades" ),

shall awake ( lift up their eyes ) 

some to everlasting life (Lazarus)

and some to shame and everlasting contempt (Richman)   (Daniel 12:2).

You know the doctrine called replacement theology?

You see immortal souls doctrine is no different; it seeks to replace the Resurrection doctrine

 

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 NO, this has nothing to do with Noah

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.” I Peter 3:18-20.

Want to try that again?

Edited January 22, 2018 by inchrist

[TheMatrixHasU71]

17 hours ago, inchrist said:

Please find me scripture actually stating Enoch went to heaven 

Easy

Genesis 5:24 | View whole chapter | See verse in context

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

[JohnD]

On 1/21/2018 at 9:49 PM, JohnD said:

We are body soul and spirit beings (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

The confusion / error about our state after death comes from considering  only one aspect of our personal make up.

God is Triune / Trinity.  Man is tripartite.

Colossians 2:9 indicates each (herein, Jesus specifically) is fully God. Not totally God or the totality of God (because in context of the Bible each is an individual and plays unique roles in the salvation of man). Each coexists with the others, speaks to the others (sends the others etc.). 

Man, while threefold in nature does not have this individual distinction between the three. Each are not fully man. Each are only part of man.

But each part must be considered in the determination of where and in what form each spends the after life and for how long.

At the risk of derailing the discussion (and I hope it  does not), the afterlife is and isn't what we traditionally believed or imagined.

We will be bodily resurrected (Romans 8:23).

But does that mean our exact precise body? The physical body is in perpetual change mode. Growing, dividing cells, eating and excrementing, in the process of it all the time. Which is necessary to exist in this environment. Otherwise the oxygen in the air alone would burn us alive. 

So to be raised in the exact body you died in IMHO isn't going to happen. If we are alive when Jesus returns, we will be changed (1 Corinthians 15:51). The mortal will put on the immortal the sinful will put on the sinless. We will be able to be in the direct presence of God. But is that all? I mean... we will have bodies like his resurrected body (1 John 3:2). But will that be a souped up form of the atoms and molecules  at a particular age, state, phase in this life? Remember, there was some aspect about Jesus that was unrecognizable though he bore the scars of crucifixion.

It is sown as a natural BODY it is raised as a spiritual BODY (1 Corinthians 15:44).

In death part of us ceases to function and appears to sleep as it begins to decompose (our body). The life-giving spirit within is gone. Gone with it also is the buffer between the two realities (our soul) which ceases to exist. The spirit lives on. The rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) has no sleep or break of consciousness between life and death, and since the cross believers go directly in spirit to the presence of the Lord in death (2 Corinthians 5). 

So all three biblical descriptions of the after life are solved when you properly apply the tripartite nature of man to them.

[TheMatrixHasU71]

On 1/22/2018 at 3:57 AM, inchrist said:

And nothing in the records given shows that man has an immortal soul when they die.

Uhh yeah there are plenty of references to it. 

The first being the blood of Abel crying out to God. That is not symbolic nor is it meant to be taken literally as his actual blood speaking. That is the soul of Abel.

Any references to the dead in the OT being gathered unto their people such as (Genesis 25:8) is often interpreted by commentators as that person joining the eternal souls of the dead in Sheol

Psalms 86:13 | View whole chapter | See verse in context

For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

 

This is the immortal soul not the lifebreath of the person

Revelation 6

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

These are people who are DEAD, not yet resurrected with new bodies and yet they speak. This is literal, and not the lifebreath of the body. The breath of the body cannot speak!

 

Revelation 20:4 | View whole chapter | See verse in context

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

And as for another comment you made about Moses at the Transfiguration, Moses was raised from Sheol. He was not yet in heaven.

Elijah came down from heaven

Adam Clarke commentary Matthew 17

Verse 3 

Moses and Elias - Elijah came from heaven in the same body which he had upon earth, for he was translated, and did not see death, 2 Kings 2:11. And the body of Moses was probably raised again, as a pledge of the resurrection; and as Christ is to come to judge the quick and the dead, for we shall not all die, but all shall be changed, 1 Corinthians 15:51, he probably gave the full representation of this in the person of Moses, who died, and was thus raised to life, (or appeared now as he shall appear when raised from the dead in the last day), and in the person of Elijah, who never tasted death. Both their bodies exhibit the same appearance, to show that the bodies of glorified saints are the same, whether the person had been translated, or whether he had died. It was a constant and prevalent tradition among the Jews, that both Moses and Elijah should appear in the times of the Messiah, and to this very tradition the disciples refer, Matthew 17:10.

 

Almost forgot regarding the immortality of the soul

Matthew 8:12 

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 14:11 

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

Only immortal souls can suffer forever in hell, people.

 

Or what about Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus's soul being calling to Sheol/Abraham/s bosom and the soul of the rich man going to hell. Its a parable but to deny the existence of the immortal soul here is to call Jesus a liar.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by TheMatrixHasU71
fixing typos, stupid clumsy fingers lol

[TheMatrixHasU71]

18 hours ago, inchrist said:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.” I Peter 3:18-20.

Umm yeah cuz this is a SIMILE

The ark represented the prison of the righteous. Just as Noah and his family were kept safe from death in the ark and then released once the water dried up, the dead before Christ (save for 2, Elijah and Enoch) were kept safe in sheol until Christ could come down to them and free them

 

[TheMatrixHasU71]

18 hours ago, inchrist said:

And how did He speak?

He never says Verily I say unto you today. NEVER ONCE. 

[inchrist]

7 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Easy

Genesis 5:24 | View whole chapter | See verse in context

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

All it states is Enoch was taken; it does not state to heaven. The assumption must be proven the direction was heaven. Please provide the facts.

I would very much like to see you harmonize the records of Enoch listed as those who died in faith.

As well as Christ direct witness that no man has ascended to heaven…..

I’m very keen to see this…...

 

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The first being the blood of Abel crying out to God. That is not symbolic nor is it meant to be taken literally as his actual blood speaking. That is the soul of Abel

If you walked into a crime scene and saw the victims blood splashed all over the wall, the blood does cry out to you. As it bears the testimony of the crime. This is just simple straight forward logic. 

Further if God didn’t want us focused on the testimonial of the blood; then God could easily have referred directly to Abels immortal soul crying out from the netherworld but God didn’t did he?

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Any  references to the dead in the OT being gathered unto their people such as (Genesis 25:8) is often interpreted by commentators as that person joining the eternal souls of the dead in Sheol

Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

Were Abrahams ancestors such righteous people that they went to paradise when they died?

Because we  find in Joshua 24:2  that his ancestors were idolators

So Abraham would have to be in hell now and not paradise to be "gathered" to his people

Psalms 86:13

This verse doesn’t inform us about what really happens to the soul at death, or if anything happens to him or her.

Just states from the depth of the grave…..how do you infer  immortal souls from this?

Is this verse written from the netherworld? If so I better tear this out of the Bible….As I will not take part in any form of necromancy.

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Matthew 8:12  

Welcome to the 7 bowls

10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

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Revelation 14:11  

Their smoke ascended for ever and ever, doesn’t state their torment was for ever and ever.

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Only immortal souls can suffer forever in hell, people.

Since when do evil doers have the gift of immortality? This gift is reserved only for the righteous.

 

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And as for another comment you made about Moses at the Transfiguration, Moses was raised from Sheol. He was not yet in heaven

Well at least you're  disproving one of the “proof positive texts”   for immortal  soul.  It’s a start; albeit your interpretation is still faulty. But nonetheless; that is a different subject. But enough to agree then that the transfiguration was not the immortal souls of Moses and Elijah.

but to deny the existence of the immortal soul here is to call Jesus a liar.

This has already been dealt with refuted with Daniels scripture.

 

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The ark represented the prison of the righteous. Just as Noah and his family were kept safe from death in the ark and then released once the water dried up, the dead before Christ (save for 2, Elijah and Enoch) were kept safe in sheol until Christ could come down to them and free them

No; 

18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit, 19in which He also went and preached to the spirits inprison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water

Greek grammar dictates the "he" must revert back to it’s closest identifier 

the spirit, in which He also went and preached to the spirits inprison

It is the Holy Spirit that went to go preach. The closest identifier.

Now, notice in verse 20, the words “when” - when  God waited patiently in the days of Noah.” 

This tells you the preaching was done in the days of Noah to those who were disobedient.....

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He never says Verily I say unto you today. NEVER ONCE.  

What did He say then? Because you’re going to go by the assumption of the translator of the comma right?
 

Edited January 23, 2018 by inchrist

[inchrist]

7 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

God took Enoch away and Enoch did not die.  So where, exactly, did God take him?  No where does it say that Enoch died.  Hebrews states very clearly that Enoch did not die.  Where did he go?

NIV is a terrible rendering of that verse.

This bit "this life, so that he did not " is not found anywhere in the original text.

No where does it state in NT Greek that Enoch was taken from this life.

Enoch was certainly taken so not to see death.

However that could mean anything. Was he taken out of a hostile situation that was life threatening?

Paul, emphasize his point, again:

 "And THESE ALL, having obtained a good report through faith, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE" (verse 39). That includes Enoch.

Enoch did NOT, has not, received the promise of eternal life. Why?

Heb. 11:40: 
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect

 

All those heroes and heroines of faith - including Enoch should not come to PERFECTION before we join them

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[inchrist]

16 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

All of which did not even begin to answer my question.  Usually, when one asks another person a question, such as, "Did you go to the store today?"  an ordinary reply would go along the lines of "Yes, I did," or "No, I did not."  An expected reply would not be along the lines of "I have an in-grown toe nail and my sister smokes crack."  I asked you exactly where Enoch went, if God did not take him to heaven and we received absolutely no illumination on that particular subject.

 

Must I send you a GPS location of where he is buried?

The scriptures do not state where he is buried. But we can safely eliminate one location being heaven.

Hebrews 11:5, transliterated reads "By faith Enoch was translated not to see death, and not was found, because translated him God before."  The rest of the verse has no break as it goes into verse 6.   The KJV does not read any differently, in all actuality.  They both say Enoch did not die.  So does the NAS.  So does the ESV.  So does every translation

Yea it states he did not die when God took him....it does not state God took him to heaven ANYWHERE in that verse.

Normally when someone asks for actual evidence stating Enoch went to heaven...the normal reply would be to provide such evidence....YOU however have not.

 Your whole reply to TheMatrix was based on the premise that you think Enoch died somehow and God forgot to tell us

That's God's prorogation, must God tell you where Moses was buried as well?

You obviously missed this bit

Paul, emphasize his point, again:

 "And THESE ALL, having obtained a good report through faith, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE" (verse 39). That includes Enoch.

Enoch did NOT, has not, received the promise of eternal life. Why?

Heb. 11:40: 
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect

 I am amazed by the Sabbath-keepers constant re-working of the book of Hebrews

What on earth does this have to do with the subject matter?

I'm amazed people pushing a Catholic doctrine....I wonder why that is?

 

 

[Marilyn C]

46 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Must I send you a GPS location of where he is buried?

The scriptures do not state where he is buried. But we can safely eliminate one location being heaven.

 

Hi inchrist,

Long time no chat. So to the point...actually God tell us where Enoch and all the OT saints are.

`By faith Enoch was taken....` you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, to Jesus... ` (Heb. 11: 5 & 12: 22 - 24)

Yes God tells us exactly where Enoch and those other OT saints who are `spirits of just men` (& women) made righteous, they are in heaven awaiting their inheritance of citizenship in the New Jerusalem, as promised. They looked for a city whose builder and Maker is God. We, of course, the Body of Christ have a greater inheritance.

regards, Marilyn.