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Is the Trinity like 1/3+1/3+1/3=1?


Aravis

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2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings,

I have read many of your confusing explanations of the Trinity, a doctrine that was nearly fully developed by the 3rd and 4th Centuries by the Apostate Church. I am not sure when the Athanasian Creed was first written, but it is a most confusing document written on this subject. The Bible and Apostolic teaching is that there is One God, the Father, known in the OT as Yahweh, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Kind regards Trevor 

 

Hi, if you could explain, the Father in the old Yahweh and our Lord Jesus CHRIST, that will be nice

Thank you God bless

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On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 2:37 PM, Aravis said:

Searching about the Trinity, I found very good explanations like the "one BEING that has 3 PERSONS" or the analogy of the cube as in C. S. Lewis book. But, if a cube is made of 6 sqaures, it means that, if one square is missing, we can no longer call that figure a cube, and, the square that is missing in this cube is not a cube anymore, it is just a square. Does that mean that, without one of these persons, God is not complete? Do those 3 persons depend on each other to become God like the squares depend on each other to become a cube? Would we say that the trinity is like 1/3 of God? Like 1/3+1/3+1/3=1? I know it doesn't fit in the definition of the Christian God. But what would be the answer for it? How does the trinity works in this sense?

Not the answer to this OP but did you know you are 3 in 1? Not the Holy Trinity but a trinity....You are Body, Mind, and Spirit. Each operates independently yet dependent on one another.....the body tends to its survival needs, the mind tends to the wisdom, knowledge and understanding needs, and the spirit tends to the spiritual/eternal life things (the breath of life)....

So now lets compare....

God is the mind....Omnipotent and Creator

Jesus is the body: Sacrificial lamb, Word that became flesh

The Holy Spirit obviously is the spirit of God that brings life to our own spirit and is the Power and Anointing that operates through us. 

But all 3 of these are 1 as the 3 separate parts of us are 1.

I know this isn't a good answer but it is a hard question to put logic to.

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Greetings Your closest friendnt,

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Hi, if you could explain, the Father in the old Yahweh and our Lord Jesus CHRIST, that will be nice

I appreciate your interest and invitation. What I would like to present is what I would teach our children as a framework or basis to consider other aspects of this subject. This was my experience up to say the age of 19, when I then needed to consider additional concepts such as the meaning of Yahweh and Elohim and the subject of God manifestation and also compare other ideas, such as the strange teaching in a few local Churches, called the Trinity. Our Sunday School teaches at three levels, Junior, Intermediate and Senior, and subdivide the lessons into five years in each category, staring with Genesis and ending with the Apostles. This makes 15 years, and is suitable to cover all this from the age of 4 to 19.

We are introduced to the one God as creator in Genesis 1-2, the promise concerning the seed of the woman who would overcome sin and its effects in Genesis 3:15. We learn of Abraham and his call to the land that he and his seed would receive for ever, and see in the offering of Isaac a pattern of greater things to come, in the offering up of God’s Son, in his crucifixion, death and resurrection. The Angel of Yahweh appeared to Moses, and revealed the Name of God as Yahweh, “He who will be or become”, and this Name was revealed to indicate that God would be active in delivering Israel out of Egypt. We read of the promises to David concerning his seed who would also be the Son of God.

Coming to the NT, we read of the conception and birth of Jesus the Son of God in fulfilment of this promise to David in the following terms:

Luke 1:30–35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

As a result Jesus was born as a human, a man child, a descendant of Adam through Mary his mother, and yet was the Son of God because God was his father in the conception / birth process. God is the Father, first because he is the father of Jesus the Son of God, in his conception and birth, and then also the Son of God in his character and in his resurrection.

Luke then records that Jesus grew in wisdom and understanding:

Luke 2:40,52 (KJV):  40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

At the time of his ministry, John records that they beheld the moral glory revealed in Jesus, the only begotten of the Father:

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When Paul wrote his Letter to the Romans, he states that the Gospel is centred in the fact that Jesus is the son of David and Son of God by birth, and declared to be the Son of God by his moral character, and because he has now been raised from the dead, and he is now seated at the right hand of the One God, His Father Psalm 110:1:

Romans 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Kind regards Trevor

Edited by TrevorL
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26 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings Your closest friendnt,

I appreciate your interest and invitation. What I would like to present is what I would teach our children as a framework or basis to consider other aspects of this subject. This was my experience up to say the age of 19, when I then needed to consider additional concepts such as the meaning of Yahweh and Elohim and the subject of God manifestation and also compare other ideas, such as the strange teaching in a few local Churches, called the Trinity. Our Sunday School teaches at three levels, Junior, Intermediate and Senior, and subdivide the lessons into five years in each category, staring with Genesis and ending with the Apostles. This makes 15 years, and is suitable to cover all this from the age of 4 to 19.

We are introduced to the one God as creator in Genesis 1-2, the promise concerning the seed of the woman who would overcome sin and its effects in Genesis 3:15. We learn of Abraham and his call to the land that he and his seed would receive for ever, and see in the offering of Isaac a pattern of greater things to come, in the offering up of God’s Son, in his crucifixion, death and resurrection. The Angel of Yahweh appeared to Moses, and revealed the Name of God as Yahweh, “He who will be or become”, and this Name was revealed to indicate that God would be active in delivering Israel out of Egypt. We read of the promises to David concerning his seed who would also be the Son of God.

Coming to the NT, we read of the conception and birth of Jesus the Son of God in fulfilment of this promise to David in the following terms:

Luke 1:30–35 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

As a result Jesus was born as a human, a man child, a descendant of Adam through Mary his mother, and yet was the Son of God because God was his father in the conception / birth process. God is the Father, first because he is the father of Jesus the Son of God, in his conception and birth, and then also the Son of God in his character and in his resurrection.

Luke then records that Jesus grew in wisdom and understanding:

Luke 2:40,52 (KJV):  40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

At the time of his ministry, John records that they beheld the moral glory revealed in Jesus, the only begotten of the Father:

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When Paul wrote his Letter to the Romans, he states that the Gospel is centred in the fact that Jesus is the son of David and Son of God by birth, and declared to be the Son of God by his moral character, and because he has now been raised from the dead, and he is now seated at the right hand of the One God, His Father Psalm 110:1:

Romans 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Kind regards Trevor

I want to thank you, everyone should speak like that , in a wholesome way from the passages in the scriptures and the way the disciples preach and teach. 

It does not have to be perfect, we all still are growing in understanding of our faith. 

You distance your self from many of the stereotyping distractions of the "scholars", who thing they can take the place of the Holy Spirit. 

Thank you and God bless. 

PS 

I will say something my self, after careful thought. 

Edited by Your closest friendnt
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4 hours ago, Waggles said:

Unfortunately 1John 5:7 is not genuine original God-given scripture, but rather a much later interpolation by someone unknown.  


The word Trinity is not mentioned once in Scripture in the entire Bible. The

word Godhead is mentioned three times in; (Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:20; Col. 2:9).
The term Godhead simply means that which is divine. It is used of Jesus Himself
in (Col. 2:9-10), "For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead
bodily," "And ye are complete IN HIM which is the head of all principality
and power." (Jesus overcame all principalities and powers by His death and
resurrection). We are complete in Him only in unity as He, the Father, and the
Holy Ghost are one in unity and not bodily.

The word Trinity means the union of the three persons in the Godhead, each who
IS called God and Lord in various Scriptures throughout the Bible, and who are
"Self-existent" and "Eternal." In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44;
Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and
when we read Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa. 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex.
17:7 with Heb. 3:7-9, and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 these Scriptures
prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord." The Holy Spirit is
distinctly called God in Acts 5:3-4. Here Peter here askes Ananias, why he kept
back part of the price . . . why Ananias let Satan fill his heart to lie to the
Holy Ghost . . . and Peter goes on to say Ananias had not lied to men but to
God."

God the Father, God the Son, AND God the Holy Ghost, in one (unified) Godhead
or divinity, so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance,
but three separate and distinct persons as to indivuality. Three separate and
distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7). Jesus Himself declared and taught
us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the
Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

Scriptures such as "one Lord" (Deut 6:4) and "one God"
(Mal. 2:10) means unitied, or united in one. Similarly, the scriptures
"They shall be one flesh" (Gen. 2:24); "the people are one"
(Gen. 11:6), do not mean all the people are one in body.

In the beginning God revealed the Godhead as consisting of more than one
person. In Gen. 2:26 "And God said, LET US make man in OUR IMAGE, after
OUR LIKENESS." Also in Gen. 3:22 He plainly said, "The man is become
AS ONE OF US." The phrase "as one of" means "like each
person of several persons of the same kind," as proved wherever the
statement "as one of" is found in Scripture (Gen. 19:14; 42:27;
49:16; Ex. 12:48; Lev. 19:34; 24:22; Num. 12:12; 2 Sam. 13:13; 14:13; Job 12:4;
ect., no person uses such a phrase and not refer to more than one person who
could make "us." If God refers to the Godhead as "us" we
should take it that He knows what He is talking about and that there are more
than one person in the Godhead.

In John 1:1 we have the statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the
Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word became flesh and dwelt
among us in John 1:14. We know the Word God took upon Himself a flesh and bone
body and became Jesus. We must ask ourselves which God was the Word with in the
beginning in John 1:1? He was with the Father for in (1 Cor. 3:23; 11:3) Paul
said that "Christ was God's and God was "the head of Christ."
Jesus dwelt amongst us whilst the Father remained in Heaven.

Acts 2:33-39 referes to three separate persons of the deity: It is said of
Jesus [one person], "Therefore being BY THE RIGHT HAND of God exalted and
having RECIEVED OF THE FATHER [another person] the promise OF THE HOLY GHOST [a
third person] He hath shed forth THIS [the Holy Ghost] which ye now SEE and
HEAR." Thus TWO persons, Jesus in His flesh and bone body, and the Father
who is spirit, stayed in Heaven sitting side by side, and the Holy Ghost (a third
person) came from the two in Heaven to take the place of Jesus among men.

If God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are "one God"
in one body, all the Scriptures mentioned above are lies, and if they are lies
then the whole Bible cannot be believed.

The fact that Jesus took upon Himself a flesh and bone body and that He was
resurrected and STILL HAS His flesh and bone body and sits at the Fathers right
hand in Heaven in it, (Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), is proved by His statement to
His disciples; "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle
me, and see; for spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have" (Luke
24:39); and to Thomas Jesus said; "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my
hands; and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side: and be not
faithless, but believing" (John 20:27). And Thomas answered and said unto
Him, My Lord AND my God" (John 21:28).

 

How could Jesus, a self confessed flesh and bones being, be sitting at the
Fathers right hand [the Father being spirit] in Heaven and be "one"
in body with the Father? Jesus Himself said above, "Spirit doth not have
flesh and bone as ye see me have." If Jesus and the Father are
"one" in body, then the Father must be flesh and bone, or Jesus must
be spirit, and this would be a lie. Jesus will have His flesh and bone body for
all eternity (Zech. 13:6).

And what was Jesus saying and asking the Father when He prayed to the Father
this prayer;

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come
to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given
me, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, AS WE ARE" (John 17:11).

And, "That they MAY BE ONE; as thou, Father art IN ME, and I IN THEE, that
they MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou has sent me"
(John 17:21).

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE
ONE, even AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou IN ME, that they may be made
perfect IN ONE; and that the world may know etc., (John 17:22-23). "And I
have declared unto them thy name, and I will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, AND I IN THEM" (John 17:26).

Jesus prayed to the Father to keep His disciples and all His followers
"one in unity" as He and the Father were. He never asked the Father
to allow all the followers and disciples all to get inside one of them and form
"one body" as fundamental Christianity wrongly teaches Jesus and the
Father are.

Jesus upbraided the disciples not for their misunderstanding, but for their
unbelief (Mark 16:13-14), and he will upbraid us as well if we do not believe
who He, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are. They are one in unity not body as
these plain simple Scriptures state.

Jesus said;

"And the Father Himself, [one person] which hath sent me [another person,
hath born WITNESS OF ME. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen
His shape (John 5:37). How can this Scripture be true if they are
"ONE" in body?

Jesus instructs us to "Search the Scriptures; for in the ye THINK ye have
eternal life: and they which testify of me" (John 5:39). How can we pray
to a God if we do not know who He is? Jesus said, "Ask me nothing. Verily
verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father IN MY NAME, He will
give it you"(John 16:23). The Father never refuses Jesus anything, so when
we ask the Father in the Name of Jesus, to the Father its like Jesus asking the
Father Himself. They are two separate individual self existant beings, sitting beside
each other in Heaven. This is as clear and as simple to believe as any other
doctrin in the Bible. Our plain common sense tells us that one person cannot
sit beside himself, and God would not expect us to believe He sits beside
Himself in two types of bodies, constantly transforming Himself at will, asking
Himself questions and invoking prayers in His Jesus Name, and then answering
them to His Jesus self as the Father. To believe this theory of Satan, which is
continued by men is plain madness.

A God who could not make Himself clear, or had to be interpreted and be
declared a mystery is no God at all. Let us believe, like sensible men, that
God can make Himself understood. He will hold men responsible for what He says,
not for what men interpret His words to say. He has a right to judge men in the
end if they constantly make Him false in all that He says, if they listen to
satanic theories. "He that rejecteth me, and recieveth not my words, hath
one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in
the last day" (John 12:48; Rev. 20:11-15). This should be enough for men
to quit the foolishness of changing God's Word to mean anything they want it to
mean? It is the height of ignorance for anyone to claim to know God better than
He has revealed Himself to be.

The Trinity consists of three divine beings each with their own separate body,
soul, and Spirit as over 500 Scriptures prove. To deny this and believe that
God is three persons in one body is to believe the theories of men which cannot
be supported Scripturally

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Greetings Hazard,

I said in my previous post, that I was taught from my youth, that there is One God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I also at the age of 19 onwards became more aware that local churches taught the Trinity, and I suggest that what you have stated in your latest Post is a typical example. I could answer most of what you have said, one portion, or one Scripture at a time, but a few may suffice.

2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Three separate and distinct persons are spoken of in (1 John 5:7).

The most obvious one is that despite Waggles objection, and without addressing what he stated, you continue to quote 1 John 5:7 again. I suggest that you look at a few Trinitarian commentaries, and even they reject this verse. Barnes NT Notes for example gives a reasonable coverage. Please note that most modern translations simply exclude this verse. I suggest that some Trinitarians must feel desperate if they need to quote 1 John 5:7.

2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

In Psalm 110:1; Matt. 22:44; ... we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord,"

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Please note that there is a distinction made between Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, David’s Lord. In the Hebrew “LORD” and “Lord” here are two different words. The two “Lords” are only in English. Even the KJV translators distinguish the two words in Matthew 22:44.

2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Jesus Himself declared and taught us to go forth and baptize in the name of the Father AND of the Son AND of the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19).

I suggest that the one Name is Yahweh, and that this not a Trinity formula. Yahweh God the Father worked in and through the Son of God partly by means of God’s power, the Holy Spirit to accomplish God’s purpose, revealed in His Name Yahweh. The three elements are found in the following:

Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Yahweh’s salvation): for he shall save his people from their sins.

Acts 2:22–23 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Neither of these quotations match the Trinity concept.

Kind regards Trevor

Edited by TrevorL
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21 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The Trinity consists of three divine beings each with their own separate body,
soul, and Spirit as over 500 Scriptures prove. To deny this and believe that
God is three persons in one body is to believe the theories of men which cannot
be supported Scripturally

Are you trying to convince me of something? 

I do not deny the trinity or the triune nature of God.

I do not have any doctrinal objection to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless 1John 5:7 is not a God-given verse in the original Greek. Later scholarly versions generally omit this verse.

But regardless of the omission of 1John 5:7 it does not mean that what we refer to as the Trinity of the Godhead does not stand.

You have more than adequately listed many verses that support the three aspects of God revealed to us mere mortals.

No Biblical truth is dependent on simply one verse alone.

Also as a Spirit-filled Pentecostal Christian baptized in the Holy Ghost I actually experience the Trinity of God; 

for example, when I am praying in tongues my prayers go forth to Jesus and to my Father in Heaven right up to the Throne of Grace,

and I am connected and receive power and answered prayer from God by the Holy Spirit. 

A wonderful loop of interaction from myself to Jesus to my Father and back to me.

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The wonderful advantage of being truly a Spirit-filled Pentecostal Christian able to pray endlessly in the Holy Spirit: 

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.
24 God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

John 4:

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25 minutes ago, Waggles said:

The wonderful advantage of being truly a Spirit-filled Pentecostal Christian able to pray endlessly in the Holy Spirit: 

23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.
24 God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

John 4:

No, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of something, just giving my belief and understanding of the Godhead.

God is a spirit being with a spirit body. The Holy Spirit is also a spirit being with a spirit body. The Word who was with God in the beginning was also a spirit being with a spirit body, but He now has a glorified flesh and bone body. He sits along side the Father in heaven in His flesh and bone body, the Father in His spirit body, that proves 2 separate and distinct beings, not two beings in one body. 

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26 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

No, I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else of something, just giving my belief and understanding of the Godhead.

God is a spirit being with a spirit body. The Holy Spirit is also a spirit being with a spirit body. The Word who was with God in the beginning was also a spirit being with a spirit body, but He now has a glorified flesh and bone body. He sits along side the Father in heaven in His flesh and bone body, the Father in His spirit body, that proves 2 separate and distinct beings, not two beings in one body. 

Agreed. 

Jesus is separate and distinct from the Father - coexistent

the creation is also through Jesus as well as the plan of salvation  

Proverbs 8 on Wisdom is a clear allegory pointing to Jesus who existed from the beginning with the Father.

Also worth thinking about is that the Holy Spirit is given to us from the Father both the promised Comforter and as power.

I Am, the LORD and Yahweh of the OT is, I believe, none other than Jesus himself.

  • This is Worthy 1
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