Legalism

[Rut-Ro]

1 hour ago, simplejeff said:

Show where I ,  or Jesus, or God, (in Scripture),   or anyone said it is best to obey God instead of satan, please.  Thank you.

I don't think you realize what you wrote there. 

[LadyKay]

I did really mean to debate anyone. I just wanted to post what I thoughts "legalism" is. But now here I am 27 pages of post later wondering to myself what happen. 

[Guest shiloh357]

It is important to understand that the Bible doesn't have a word in either Greek or Hebrew for "legalism."   What the Bible does say is this: 

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Gal 5:4)

 

You people are really over-thinking this because very few of you have a biblical understanding about legalism is.   Legalism is when you attempt to earn God's favor by keeping the law.  

There is no a single person on this planet that has the capacity to please God apart from Christ.    God is not pleased by our observance of His law because our observance is tainted with the stain of sin.  The ONLY person who ever truly pleased God was Jesus because Jesus kept Gods laws without any sinfulness.  

The difference is that Jesus fulfilled the righteousness of the law and that is imputed to us when we are justified by faith.  Jesus' perfect righteousness which fulfilled all of God's laws places us legal right-standing with God.    If you trying to be right with God by keeping the law, then you are saying that what Jesus did wasn't good enough. 

Christians are not bound to the law of Moses because Jesus has imputed to us righteousness by virtue of faith and the internal indwelling, abiding presence of the Holy Spirit makes us far better equipped to avoid sin than the external constraints of the Law.

"I must keep the law" = "Jesus isn't good enough for me."

 

[Rut-Ro]

9 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

I did really mean to debate anyone. I just wanted to post what I thoughts "legalism" is. But now here I am 27 pages of post later wondering to myself what happen. 

I don't blame you. 

While the phrase, legalism, is not in scripture, the law is referred to quite a bit in the OT.  This is a topic under discussion quite often among people in Christ. BING link

Galatians 2:21 

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

[Heleadethme]

29 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

again ?   Or rather as it has been (world wide) in and from babylon ever since the 3rd/ 4th century and still growing (bad) ?

Have you read NAY ANY posts indicating someone today on the forum is "Judaizing" (with definition what you mean (perhaps already given in previous posts?) , please, btw) ... ?

Has it been a problem for that long?  I only first became aware of it about 18 years or so ago, as far as the western church goes at least. 

I have seen it in congregations I have been to, as well as on other websites I have been on, quite a lot of it in past years.  I was rebuked quite strongly by the Lord when I being led astray, and He was gracious to show me the error.

How do you define Judaizing, and where/how has it been happening for centuries...?

[Wayne222]

3 hours ago, LightShinesInTheDarkness said:

In my observation, Christians tend to fall into two camps, regarding the legalism issue:

On the right are those who believe that obedience to Jesus' commandments is more or less optional, and automatic---that if one is a true Christian, he or she will just automatically obey God, because he or she wants to, and because he or she is so thankful to God for saving him or her. Unfortunately, these beliefs do not agree what the Bible teaches, (or with what reality proves).

We can choose not to obey Jesus---we have that "freedom"; we can keep the commands we want as we want to, when we want to, and disregard or change the ones we don't like or that aren't convenient to our personal ambitions (as so many Christians like to do), using whatever we may to justify it---but there are consequences: Not just the chastening of the Lord, or the potential to forfeit our salvation if we persist in deliberate sin against Him--which the Scriptures teach that we can do--but also the loss of eternal rewards, of spiritual blessings in the here and now, and a poor relationship with the Lord.

The Bible simply doesn't teach that Christians effortlessly or automatically obey God; and reality proves otherwise to anyone who is honest. We have to choose to---daily---and that choice often requires self-denial and doing things that we'd rather not, and sometimes it requires much prayer and personal struggle and pain. No honest Christian would say that he or she always wants to obey God or choose what pleases Him---or is even concerned with what pleases Him much of the time, in the case of many Christians, unfortunately. (Evidence: They don't even bother to read their Bibles to find out what He actually commands or desires; and if they find out, and they don't care for it, they don't do it.)

Not to be unduly cynical, but a lot of the Christians of this camp (the anti-legalist, "free-in-Christ" camp) are really living to please themselves, because they don't think God's commands are that important; they're just helpful hints, with no serious consequences for not keeping them. They focus on the scriptures that allow them to live the way they want to, and overlook or try to change or make excuses for not living the others. And their preoccupation with and emphasis on their "freedom" in Christ is contrary to what the New Testament teaches.

We are not "free" in Christ; we were bought with a price. We have a Master. A loving one, and a kind one, but a Master nonetheless, to whom we must each give an account, and who we are supposed to be living to please and to glorify; and there are serious consequences for not obeying Him.

A curious irony of this position is that the very Christians who will call you "judgmental" for honestly and lovingly pointing out the fact that they're not living according to the teachings of the New Testament will tell you that Christians who choose to sin aren't really Christians.

So somehow (according to these), it's judgmental to tell someone to obey the Lord, but it's not judgmental to decide who is saved and who isn't based on whether or not they sin?

All Christians sin sometimes, and all Christians can choose to sin. How much sin does it take to be a "fake" Christian? A few flirts with pornography in secret now and then? Or even a secret addiction to it? A couple of fights with a spouse? Being in credit card debt for too long? Where is this jury of sinless "true" Christians who decide who is "fake" and who isn't based on whether they sin or not? Because true Christians don't choose to sin, or to continue in sin of some kind even when they know it's wrong---like gluttony or pornography. They always obey the Lord, because they just love Him so much, and are so thankful for eternal life; and because it's natural and automatic.

So you're "free" in Christ to be everything but human. Because if you sin, you're fake. (But if you insist upon obedience to the Lord, you're a judgmental, hypocritical legalist.) "No need to be so concerned about obedience, just enjoy your freedom in Christ. But don't sin, because if you do, you'll prove that you're not really saved. And don't talk about sin either, because it makes us uncomfortable."

 

And then, on the left, are the people who are orthodox about things that aren't Scriptural, or who want Christians to keep the law of Moses (which is only for unsaved Jews). "We must obey God," they say; and then they point you to the ten commandments and the rest of the Mosaic law.

(We have the ten commandments, but they're not in the Old Testament, but in the New, as Jesus amplified them and gave them to Christians. If we were to keep the ten commandments as they are given in the Old Testament, we would be breaking the commands of Christ in the New. We could commit mental adultery, as long as we didn't engage in the physical kind. We could be idolaters in heart by being covetous so long as we didn't worship an actual idol. We could hate our enemies so long as we loved our neighbors.)

And they insist upon calling God by a certain Hebrew name, or using a particular version of the Bible, or on rituals and special clothes and special days, or man-made traditions and doctrines; and they put religion in the place of God-given faith in disputable matters and how to apply His commands to our lives.

 

Both of these camps are wrong.

 

(Stick to the teachings of the New Testament, obey Jesus with an honest and good heart, set your heart to do what pleases Him, and you'll be neither unduly or unrighteously legalistic nor foolishly free. ) 

I find some of your comments off . You would have to know the posters personally to say what you did. Saying they they are really living to please themself is something you could not know unless you interacted with them in person on a daily basis. Satan loves to accuse. He makes charges against others. 

[simplejeff]

29 minutes ago, Rut-Ro said:

the law is referred to quite a bit in the OT. 

Note how often TORAH is mentioned in quick search :  410 Bible results for “torah.” Showing results 1-410.
Bible search results

174 times in TORAH, PROPHETS and PSALMS

276 times in the NEW TESTAMENT.   (worth reading through for all who never thought it was important).

TORAH:  Filter by:

1. All (410)
2. Old Testament (174)
3. Exodus (3)
4. Numbers (3)
5. Deuteronomy (22)
6. Joshua (8)
7. 1 Kings (1)
8. 2 Kings (10)
9. Isaiah (9)
10. Jeremiah (11)
11. Ezekiel (5)
12. Hosea (3)
13. Amos (1)
14. Micah (1)
15. Habakkuk (1)
16. Zephaniah (1)
17. Haggai (1)
18. Zechariah (1)
19. Malachi (5)
20. Psalm (33)
21. Proverbs (5)
22. Lamentations (1)
23. Daniel (2)
24. Ezra (5)
25. Nehemiah (24)
26. 1 Chronicles (2)
27. 2 Chronicles (16)
28. New Testament (236)
29. Matthew (35)
30. Mark (24)
31. Luke (31)
32. John (13)
33. Acts (22)
34. Romans (46)
35. 1 Corinthians (8)
36. 2 Corinthians (1)
37. Galatians (20)
38. Ephesians (1)
39. Philippians (1)
40. 2 Thessalonians (4)
41. 1 Timothy (3)
42. Titus (3)
43. Hebrews (15)
44. James (8)
45. 1 John (1)

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=torah&qs_version=CJB&limit=500

[simplejeff]

1 hour ago, Rut-Ro said:

You've not heard him preach obviously. 

I didn't have to hear him, nor anything about him,  if your post was correct accurate about what you think.  (what you posted (of what you think of what you said he said) shows your errors)  i.e. just going by your own words , of your own thoughts.

[LightShinesInTheDarkness]

8 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

I find some of your comments off . You would have to know the posters personally to say what you did. Saying they they are really living to please themself is something you could not know unless you interacted with them in person on a daily basis. Satan loves to accuse. He makes charges against others. 

Did you read the part about evidence? And why would you think I was accusing people to whom that didn't apply? I was generally addressing an issue that I have observed among Christians. I didn't say all Christians are like this, and I didn't condemn or accuse anyone on this thread. If that general statement isn't true of you, what's the offense? If that statement is true of some people on this thread (God knows), hopefully they will do something about it. But if not, why should they be offended by it? 

[simplejeff]

1 hour ago, LadyKay said:

2 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Show where I ,  or Jesus, or God, (in Scripture),   or anyone said it is best to obey God instead of satan, please.  Thank you.

I'm confused. I don't think I understand your question.

In this forum overall (I've forgotten what first post prompted the question) ,  many posters seem to think and to say they don't have to obey God.  Thus,  unwittingly,  they obey the enemy of Christ.   Often their excuse is (I'll find a quote later if I can, but it was many weeks ago last I paid attention to it),  "IF YOU KEEP ONE COMMANDMENT, "  (1) you're lost or (2) you're condemned / because you can't keep them all.   Thus, contrary to all of God's Word,  yet strangely(?) in line with their other posts,   they think anyone who obeys God is condemned,  whether they say it outright or in a round-a-bout way.  

It is expected and seen in His Word,  TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS and NEW TESTAMENT, 

that to obey God is good and right and true to His Word,  thus in line with His Word, it is best to obey God.

(not to be saved, but as His children)

Those who do not obey God,  which is everyone to start with, even us who are saved or will be saved,  are sons of disobedience - subject to the prince of power of the air (the devil),   UNTIL redeemed.  The world's population is all subject to the devil, EVEN THOUGH they may think they have free will to choose, and possibly there are no exceptions found in Scripture,  but referring basically to EPHESIANS 2,  GALATIANS,  and REVELATION the whole world is deceived , subject to the enemy, AND REFUSES to repent of serving demons. (serving=worshiping)