Study: Grand Canyon may be as old as dinosaurs

[BeyondET]

On January 20, 2018 at 5:44 PM, missmuffet said:

I am a young earth believer.That is the universe is around 6,000 years old. I think if we interpret scripture literally that is the only interpretation one can believe in. Scientists believe the Grand Canyon is 70 million years old. That is an old earth believer. My brother was a Scientist and he was an atheist. I am sure there are a handful of Christian Scientists.

That is interesting, the universe was just a little over 1,000 years old when this tree sprouted from the earth.

Great Basin bristlecone pine, 4,844 rings.

Edited January 22, 2018 by BeyondET

[Retrobyter]

On 1/20/2018 at 2:22 PM, Quasar93 said:

Researchers suggest that the canyon could have been formed by a river that was frequented by the massive dinosaurs of the late Cretaceous period.

The research, published in the journal Science, adds a new component to 150 years of wrangling over the exact age of the mile-deep canyon in Arizona, according to University of Colorado Assistant Professor Rebecca Flowers.
A new method of measuring radioactive decay from minerals in the soil suggests the gorge is 70 million years old. Flowers, who worked with Professor Kenneth Farley of the California Institute of Technology one of the project, said in a telephone interview.
 
The team examined soil samples from both the western and eastern parts of the canyon, and their findings confirmed a similar study published last year based on a study of just one side of the canyon.
It suggests that the canyon would have been carved by a river that existed before dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago and before the existence of the modern Colorado River system, a 1,450-mile-long (2,333-km-long) body of water that flows from Colorado to Mexico.

"At that time, the topography of the landscape in the Western U.S. looked very, very different than today," she said.
In fact, the elevation of the land in the West was higher and that ancient river would have flowed in the opposite direction of the Colorado River, she said.

Source:  http://news.msn.com/science-technology/ ... -dinosaurs



Quasar 93

Shalom, Quasar93.

One needs to understand a few things about radiometric dating methods. First, it is ASSUMED that the original amount of the decaying material was 100%; one cannot be sure of that. Part of it may have already appeared from volcanic material with an abundance of the material into which the decaying material decays. One cannot know for sure that the original material was completely without any daughter elements.

Second, it is also ASSUMED that the samples of decaying material have not been exposed to any process of leeching; that is, no water or gas has eroded the sample through the time period being investigated. Such leeching would greatly change the apparent age. And, just for the record, we ARE talking about the erosion of sedimentary rock by a river!

Third, it is also ASSUMED that the process of half-life decay is CONSISTENT throughout the time period being investigated. Again, that is something that cannot really be known or tested.

There are also analytical limitations to radiometric dating methods. For a good description, see What are some of the limits of radiometric dating techniques.

The TYPE of radiometric dating techniques is also susceptible to errors. Do we use Carbon 14 dating or Uranium-Thorium-Lead dating?

Romans 1:18-25 (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

This is the problem with humanism and uniformitarianism.

[other one]

Park Ranger told us that the upper wide part was formed as the water drained off the central upper states after the flood..   and the bottom narrow part after the majority of the water drained out......

sounded pretty good to me.       Was a super day that I took this picture.

[Who me]

On 1/20/2018 at 7:22 PM, Quasar93 said:

Researchers suggest that the canyon could have been formed by a river that was frequented by the massive dinosaurs of the late Cretaceous period.

Or it was far more likely formed by the water of the flood running off the land.

Question.  Where can you see a meandering river that is erroding its way though solid rock today?

[HAZARD]

When was "In the beginning"? Who knows when or what period of time, "IN THE BEGINNING" was?

In Genesis it says, Genesis 1;1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

It does not say, 6'000 years ago God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1;1 also states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

It does not say, Six thousand years ago was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, six thousand years ago?

The next two verses also do not mention any time period or time when things were created.

 

John 1: 2, The same was in the beginning with God.
   John 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.

God the Father, and the Word, before He became flesh and dwelt among us are ETERNAL beings. Sure as God the Word had no beginning but as a Man, He had a beginning.

John 1:14; "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

 

It is interesting to note that astronomers have discovered planets about 150,000,000 light years from the Earth. This is about 14,690,062,800,000,000,000 miles from the Earth, or a distance light can travel in 150,000,000 years at a speed of 186,000 miles per second. Astronomers also say there are other universes even beyond this one. They say about 6,000,000,000 stars have been discovered and they are all suns to other planets. If this is true then the universe is beyond human conception.

 

It is hard to conceive that God has existed from all eternity past as a lazy being, not doing anything until a few millennium ago, when He finally decided to do something.

It is easier to conceive that God has been making things in all the eternal past. Jesus Himself said;

John 5:17, "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work."

And they will continue to work through eternity future, and we will be included in their work!

I ask you, is the universe, many parts of it that are not in rebellion, in sin against God inhabited,? I believe so because of this simple Scripture;

 

Revelation 12:12, "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them . . . . . . Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." yes, his time will shortly and positively and securely cut off!

 

The Bible says the heavens cannot be measured and the host of Heaven cannot be counted (Jer. 31:37 ; 33:22-25). It is also clear that the spirit world of angels, seraphims, cherubims, and other spirit beings were created before the Earth, for the "sons of God," (angels), were present and shouting when God laid the foundations of the Earth. It is also clear from this passage that God created the heavens, including the moon, the sun and stars were created before the Earth, for "the morning stars" sang together when God laid the foundations of the Earth. This would be the logical order of creation, to make theplace before creating the inhabitants to live in or on the place.

Since inhabitants were a part of the creation and not part of Creators (Col. 1:15-18), they naturally would have to be created on which they were to live. This is the way it happened on Earth in the six days of the restoration of the Earth from chaos to a second habitable state (Gen. 1:3-2:25).

 

Bearing all this in mind, we either believe our God can and did create everything which included the molecules of the universe, from the basic atomic particles to the subatomic particles, and even particles we know nothing about yet in His creation we see and live in today!

 

In a nutshell and put simply;

“In the beginning" [literally by periods or ages] God created the heaven, [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth, not 6000years ago God created the Heaven and the earth.
When we speak of the six days and the creation of the present life on Earth, we can speak with Bible authority that it was about 6000 years ago. This can be seen by the lengths of the various dispensations since Adam. In no Scripture are we taught to believe that the heavens and the Earth were originally created during the six days and at the time of Adam about 6000 years ago.

Some use Exodus 20:8-11; 31:17 to try and prove that the heavens and the Earth were created in the six days of Gen. 1:3-2:25, and therefore, that they were created about 6000 years ago. However, nothing is said of the original creation of the heavens and the Earth in these passages.

In these Scriptures the Hebrew word 'ASAH,' meaning to make out of already existing material, is used instead of the word 'BARA,' to create. These verses picture the re-creation work of the six days and not the original creation "In the beginning."

'ASAH' never means to create. It is translated 'MADE,' 659 times; 'MAKE,' 449 times; 'MAKETH,' 59 times and 'MAKEST,' sixteen times; 'MAKER,' thirteen times; 'MAKING,' eleven times; and 'MADEST,' three times.
When God said, "In six days, the Lord 'MADE' heaven and Earth," he had in mind the restoration of the heaven (firmament, or clouds) the Earth to a habitable state as it was before the destruction of Lucifer’s kingdom by the flood and Gen. 1:2.

 

Molecular science does not disprove the creations of God. All things were created after Lucifer’s rebellion, "After their own kind."

 

Every Instance: after their kind,   AV (Gen-Rev),

Gen 1:21, And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:25, And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 6:20, Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
Gen 7:14, They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

So, if they were created after their own kind, it was after the kind that was created before!

We can either believe what God says about Himself and His creations or not? Its up to us.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 2/8/2019 at 3:30 PM, Who me said:

Question.  Where can you see a meandering river that is erroding its way though solid rock today?

Well, IDK, do you think this is meandering?:

It looks sort of meandery to me!

It is difficult to speculate too much with confidence about any long river. A river like this today, travels over many different types of rock, and through different climates as it makes it's journey to the sea.

Additionally the elevation under the river is also not constant over time, the land rises and falls with various geologic events. Consider the trilobite fossil below (from the Grand Canyon):

Now, these things are of special interest. One, the trilobite was a marine animal. Presumably then, either the canyon was where this was removed, was at a time when the sea level was much higher, or the former bottom of the sea had moved higher to an elevation well above sea level or both.

From that also, it seems fair to presume that this rise (if any) occured after the formation of this section of the river, otherwise the river had to flow uphill to the sea.

 

Now, in the picture above, we see a lake (Mead) that is manmade. We built a dam downstream, and that made water back up. Of course, that means that the water changed from a flow, to a slow. It does that whether the change in geography, is man made or natural. It does, however, serve to illustrate what happens.

The upper part of the picture, show the river water, full of reddish brown sediment, perhaps from erosion. Well, almost certainly from erosion, but some of that could be from side tributaries feeding the river. In either case, it is still the river, flowing over solid rock.

When the river slows down as it meets the lake, the sediment can no longer stay in suspension, and it sinks to the bottom, leaving the green looking water we see near the bottom of the picture.

I do not know if that deals with your question or not, but I think it does relate some information about how some of these things work now, and perhaps did in the past, and that information may be helpful to someone trying to get a handle on these things.

[Neighbor]

Hi all,

California has been  experiencing major conturing of it's geology in just half my life time. Doesn't take much, a forest fire, a rain, an earthquake.  Try driving some coastal highways go around Palos Verdes Peninsula, watch houses tumble off newly formed gorges and cliffs.  See the desert of Maine spread. Watch my own family's homes sink and lean and crack from Florida sink holes causing new lakes to form, and  old ones to disappear. Look at the history of Crystal River and the river systems of Florida and consider the underground water and rivers that flow with the Hudson of New York being connected to the rivers of central Florida. It doesn't take much, an active volcano, a flood, a drought, all cause great havoc to the terrain. Not to mention what man is doing with the great dams and the oil fracking process today.

Earth's surface is fragile, but a thing of beauty even in it's decay we call fall foliage.

New earth, old earth,  a day one is 15 billion present day years long, whatever theory, the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, you name the theory and speculation it doesn't  change much of anything. All that has been created has been created by Jesus who is Lord, God, and savior of all that will be with God the Father eternally, as is made known to those called by God the Holy Spirit to turn about from their own sin against God to hear,  see and heed that Jesus is God. That He is the way the truth and the life. No one comes to God the Father except by Jesus, His sacrifice made that  each called of the Holy Spirit may be seen by God the Father as holy as God is Holy. That knowledge comes by faith and not by sight, it is the gift  of God.

"Simul Justus Et Peccator" is the hope that is certain in life and in life of my soul for eternity to come. The corrupted earth will pass away as will all things of it and a  new heaven and a new earth will be the eternal dwelling place of those called out by God to live with Him  in peace and for worship His glory.

All the earth creation timeline speculations  though very  interesting are  irrelevant to having eternal life with God, For even if one were to have a stone tablet carved by the hand of God right in front of them there will soon be those that will build a temple and melt gold into idol and  deny God in all that they  do. Just doesn't matter the time lines salvation, is spiritually discerned, enabled by God the Holy Spirit.

The Gospel of Jesus is to be spread by His own, those given Him by His Father as enabled and encouraged by God the Holy Spirit. The born again  need not lose ground while running the race the purpose for which they have been created. Knowing the exact date of creation, if such a thing can be dated except to call it the time of the eternity past a time before time, accomplishes what? Man will still be depraved and still be in need of Jesus, and the born again will still be told go into all the world with the gospel of Jesus.  Best to be about the race striving to finish well and not spend too much time on determining timelines. For our Lord may return even this day. Maranatha!

 

 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.  All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.  In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.  He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.  He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.  He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.  (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”)  For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.  No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

 

[Who me]

On 2/11/2019 at 4:09 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

It is difficult to speculate too much with confidence about any long river.

Yet it is pure speculation to say that a meandering river has cut through nearly a mile of solid rock. This is not seen anywhere in the world as happening today.

On 2/11/2019 at 4:09 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

the former bottom of the sea had moved higher to an elevation well above sea level or both.

If you look at hydro surview sites you will, after some investigation, discover that if the sea bed was levaled out and raised up to a uniform height/depth the world would be totally covered by, depending on the site, up to a mile of seawater.

Two problems for you.

1, where did all this water come from?

2, When the tectonics plates ( a recently accepted idea ) moved to provide a place for all that water, what effect would it have on the submerged land?

[other one]

2 hours ago, Who me said:

Yet it is pure speculation to say that a meandering river has cut through nearly a mile of solid rock. This is not seen anywhere in the world as happening today.

If you look at hydro surview sites you will, after some investigation, discover that if the sea bed was levaled out and raised up to a uniform height/depth the world would be totally covered by, depending on the site, up to a mile of seawater.

Two problems for you.

1, where did all this water come from?

2, When the tectonics plates ( a recently accepted idea ) moved to provide a place for all that water, what effect would it have on the submerged land?

good questions....

[JohnR7]

On 1/20/2018 at 2:22 PM, Quasar93 said:

Researchers suggest that the canyon could have been formed by a river that was frequented by the massive dinosaurs of the late Cretaceous period.

The canyon was created 40 – 80 million years ago as the North American and Pacific plates were colliding.