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MyLordsServant

Is Judas in heaven

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7 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

What a very excellent thought out explanation Hazard. Like I previously stated, in my opinion there's no doubt Judas resides in Hell and my reasons.

This question of Judas status and ultimate fate and destiny to me, seems to also address "Once Saved Always Saved" (OSAS). There's few things in scripture I'm on the fence about in scripture, but 'OSAS' is one of them. There's probably close to an equal number of Godly dedicated scholars, expositors and teachers on both side of OSAS. The Baptist denomination and church I belong to believe in OSAS.

So here's a question that pertains particularly to Judas and Peter, no doubt as well to others during Christ's ministry. During Christ's ministry, the Jew's were still under the 'law'. Salvation and Grace didn't begin until Christ rose from the dead. We today look 'back' to the Cross and what Jesus did for us and believe and have faith, confess our sins and ask Jesus to come into our life and we become a child of God. Prior to Christ, the Jew's were under the law, but the law saved no one. As with Abraham, it was looking 'forward' to the promise and the Cross, having faith and trusting the Lord was how O.T. believers were saved. Am I correct in my thinking?

Judas betrayal occurred before the 'age of Grace' and Christ's complete work was finished on the Cross. The Bible is clear Judas was one of the twelve, which I interpret to mean he was a believer, had faith and follower of Christ at one point. So I guess one of my questions would be as far as Salvation goes, do you see any difference from before the Cross and after as far as Salvation? Peter repented to the One living God, Judas repented to and regretted to the corrupt priests and elders. Am I making sense and explaining my thoughts correctly?

To be honest in my personal interpretation of scripture taken in context pertaining to 'the age of Grace'. There seems to be about an equal number of scriptures for and against OSAS. 

Romans 5:8 (KJV) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

 

Dr. Peter Ruckman said he could preach all day using 200 verses that seem to show one could lose their salvation.He also said he could preach all day  using the 400 verses that say you can “ not”not lose your salvation. The difference was every verses that seemed to indicate a Believer could be lost was either taken out of context or the verse was not addressing those who were in the Body of Christ, that body being those who have  repented( changed their mind and saw that they were a lost sinner who needs a Saviour) and believing that Christ rose from the dead. 1 cor15:1-4.

 

 

Edited by Blood Bought 1953
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On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 7:10 PM, HAZARD said:

John 17:12, While I was with them in the world, I kept them in they name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

All Judas had to do was repent, just like Peter repented after cursing Jesus three times and denying Him. Had Peter not repented he would have been lost just like Judas. Want proof? Here read this;

Matt 10:33, "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

How could Jesus have lost Judas if He never had him in the first place? How does someone loose something one does not have?

 There is no such statement in the Bible that Judas was a devil from the beginning. He was a devil or an adversary against Christ toward the latter part of His ministry and this is all the bible does say about the question (John 6:70). He was once a saved man as were all the other apostles including Peter who denied Christ and cursed that he did not know Him.

Peter came to deny the Lord three times (Matt. 26:34). Peter was in danger of going to hell because Jesus had warned “Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels” (Mark 8:38). And Jesus also said, “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven” (Matt. 10:33). If Peter had died in his sin, Jesus Christ would have been ashamed of him before all of Heaven and would have publicly denied him.

Christ said to Peter, Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

And the fact the that Jesus said to Peter “Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat… when thou art converted, strength thy brethren” (Luke 22:31-32) shows that Peter was no longer saved during his denial of Christ. The good news is that Peter had repented of his sin and was restored to Jesus Christ. Three times Peter denied Christ, so three times Christ asked Peter if He loved him (John 21:15-17), thus restoring him from his backsliding.

Like Peter, Judas also decided to backslide from faithful devotion to Jesus. Judas began to steal money from the group (John 12:6) and he even came to betray the Lord (Mk. 14:10). Jesus knew from the very beginning of Judas’ plot that he would betray Him (Jn. 6:64). But the Bible says that Judas was, at one point, a trusted friend of Jesus (Ps. 41:9; John 13:18). This explains why Judas kept the money (John 13:29). If Jesus trusted Judas as a friend, Judas must have been trust worthy at that time. Betrayal implies, presupposes, or takes for granted former loyalty, friendship, or trust. If Judas was not formerly a loyal and trust friend of Jesus, he could not have betrayed Him. If Judas was not a loyal and trusted friend, who was a genuine follower of Him, He would not have chosen Him to preach the gospel, heal the sick, or cast out devils in the first place. Judas became a devil (John 6:70), but he was not always a devil, for Jesus asked, “How can Satan cast out Satan?” (Mark 3:23).

Scriptures plainly teach that Judas was a genuine disciple or follower of Christ who fell from his apostleship and lost his salvation through his sin. To teach otherwise is to simply misrepresent or misunderstand the Scriptures. Jesus Himself said that the Father gave Judas to Him but that He had lost him (John 17:12). Judas chose to be a disciple (Luke 9:23; 14:27), then Jesus chose him to be an apostle (Luke 6:13; John 6:70), but then Judas fell from his apostleship by his choice to transgress (Acts 1:25). Judas lost both his salvation and apostleship through sin. The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "By Transgression Fell" (Acts 1:15-25). If men would be as anxious to believe the Holy Spirit as they are to believe men, and if they would be as anxious to believe all Scriptures as they claim to believe somethey would show some consistency and honesty regarding the whole Word of God. Judas not only had a moral fall but sin caused it. He was not alwas a "devil" and a "thief." He became both after he had been saved for some time. His weakness was the love of money and this caused his fall, "This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein." (John 12:6), "And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money." (Luke 22:5). He had seen Christ escape many timesand he no doubt thought the Lord would escape again and he would be the richer. it was not untill the end of Christs ministry that Judas began to pilfer and to grow cold in his love of Christ. At the last supper he became united with the devil. He broke with Christ and saught opportunity to betray Him.


Judas was sorry afterwards for his betrayal "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that." (Matt. 27:3-5). He could have been forgiven as much as any of the others who cursed, denied Christ, and fled like cowards in the test. But being of a disposition to do so, he brooded over his fall and yielded to temptation to commit suicide. Judas is a specific exampleof a New testament man who was once saved and in God's favour and grace but who by transgression fell, and because of his unrepented sin went to hell.

Its pretty simple to understand, Jesus would not pick sinners, pagans, murderers, to go and preach the gospel. Judas by transgression fell, His bishopric was GIVEN TO ANOTHER!

Judas had the Holy Spirit and power like the other apostles and was a successful preacher and healer like them (Matt.10:1-20; mark 6:7-13)
He had his name written in Heaven, as proved by Acts 1:20 with Ps. 69:25-29. he fell from his apostleship by Transgression (Acts 1:25)
Judas was to have his habitation desolate and be blotted out of the book of the living (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20), and he was to have another take his place in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8) These passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt. 26:24; John 13:18; Acts 1:16-25.
In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" received power over demons, sickness and disease and a call to preach the Gospel. Of the twelve (Including Judas) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach, and to heal the sick. Christ said to Judas and all the twelve, freely ye have received, freely give . . . . I send you forth as sheep . . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you (Matt. 10:1-20).

In the Bible we not only have many passages plainly stating that eternal life can be lost and that the saved who sin will die and be damned, but we have many concrete cases of men, and angels who once had eternal life and were in grace and in favour with God, and who sinned and will be damned in Hell forever, regardless of their sonship, and past union with God in grace.

Judas was a ordinary man, the son of Simon(John 6:71; 12:4; 13:2, 26); a genuine chosen and empowered apostle (Matt. 10:1-20; Mark 3:14-19; Luke 6:12-16; 9:1-10; Acts 1:17); he was the treasurer of the disciples (John12:4-6; 13:29); and he was a successful preacher and healer (Mark 6:7-13; Luke 9:10).

He was named "Iscariot," meaning "man of Kerioth," a place in Juda (Josh 15:25).

He became a "thief" and an "adversary" of Christ late in his ministry (John 6:70; 12:4-6) He betrayed Jesus Matt. 26:14-16, 47-50; Mark 14:10-11, 43-45; Luke22:3-6, 47-49; John 13:2; 18:2-5; Acts 1:16-25), He returned the money to the chief priests (Matt. 27:3-10), he committed suicide and is then lost (Matt. 26-24;; 27:5; Mark 14:21; Luke 22:22; John 17:12; Acts 1:16-25).

Prophecies concerning him (Matt. 26:21-25; Mark 14:18-21; Luke 22:21-23; John 13:18-26; 17:12; Acts 1:16, 2o with Psalms 41:9; 69:25; 109:8; Zech. 11:12-13).

Classic examples.

Lucifer, better known as Satan and the devil, and over one third of God's angels sinned and are to be damned in a Hell especially prepared for them (Matt. 24:41). It would be folly for anyone to argue that they were not once holy and sinless and in God's favour and grace. Angels are definately called "sons of God" (Gen. 6:1-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). These sons of God in Job could not be men, for they were present when God laid the foundations of the Eafth long before man was created (Job 38:4-7). If these "sons of God" fell and are to be damned, then the argument of some that if a man is once a son he cannot be lost or else salvation is not salvation and eternal life is not eternal life, is proved to be a false theory. If God will damn some of creation who were in grace and who are called "sons," then He will also damn others if they sin, else God is unjust and a respecter of persons.

Lucifer is spoken of as being "perfect in they ways from the day that thou wast created, TILL iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:11-17).

Saul, who was in God's favour and who had the Holy Spirit, lost that favour and was destroyed because of sin (1 Chron. 10:13-14). He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal live (1 Sam. 28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). To argue that Saul was never a saved man is to demonstrate a lack of Bible truth. "God gave Saul another heart . . . and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied (1 Sam. 10:9-13). If this was not an experience of the saved man then it was nothing at all. It is also recorded haw the Spirit of God LEFT HIM WHEN HE SINNED (1 Sam. 16:12-23). Saul went into spiritualism and God said He would cut off the man who did this (Lev. 19:31; 20:6; Deut. 18:11). He was a very humble and godley man to begine with, but he did notend in this way (1 Sam. 10:21-24).

Ananias and Sapphira were both killed by the power of God because of covetousness and lying to the Holy Ghost (acts 5:1-14). That they were once saved is clear from Acts 4:32-5:1, for Ananias and his wife were classed with "the multitude of them that believed" and "were of one heart and one soul . . . as many as were posessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles feet . . . But a certain man [of those who believed and were of one heart andsoul] named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a posession." If these two were believers and had been saved and were in the church, then it cannot be disputed with any degree of honesty that they were once saved and then lost. To deny they were once saved is to deny thruth and it is not worth the price to pay.

Many galatians who were once saved and had "recieved the Spirit" who had "begun in the Spirit" who were "redeemed and justified by faith," and who were "sons" of God by being made free from sin (Gal. 3:2-4; 3:13; 24; 4:4-7; 5:1-26), FELL "from grace" and Christ became "OF NO EFFECT" unto them (Gal. 5:4, 5). They were "removed from Him" and "from grace," so once in grace always in grace is not biblical unless one stays in grace (Gal. 1:6; 3:1-5; 5:1-9). They were plainly told that to go back under the law and into sins of the flesh, meant to "frustrate [cause to fail, nullify, make void] the grace of God" and that in such case they were not in grace and would reap corruption (Gal. 2:21; 5:1-9; 6:7, 8). They were told that if they built again the things of sin that were "once destroyed" they were transgressors and sinners (Gal. 2:17-18). They were taught that true eternal security was by walking in the spirit and not fulfilling the works of the flesh (Gal. 5:16-26; 6:7, 8). Paul did not tell then that if they got in grace their responsibility as to sin was over. He accused them of falling from grace (Gal. 5:4), so such must be possible.

Many other men who were formerly saved have gone back into sin and have bee lost. This fact is clear from such statements as these: "some having put away concerning the faith have MADE SHIPWRECK. . . . he hath DENIED THE FAITH. . . . when they begin to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; HAVING DAMNATION, BECAUSE they have CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH . . . and TURNED ASIDE AFTER SATAN . . . But they that will FALL INTO TEMPTATION AND A SNARE, and INTO MANY FOOLISH AND HURTFUL LUSTS, WHICH DROWN MEN IN DESTRUCTION AND PERDITION. . . . they HAVE ERRED FROM THE FAITH. . . . and OVERTHRONE the FAITH OF SOME. . . . If God will preadventure give them REPENTANCE. . . . that they may RECOVER THEMSELVES OUT OF THE SNARE OF THE DEVIL" (1 Tim. 1"19, 20; 5:8; 5:11-15, 20; 6:1, 10, 21; 2 Tim. 2:18-16).

Each one of the statements above would disprove that doctrin of once in grace and faith always in grace and faith and once saved always saved, but here in 1 and 2 Timothy are many such statements in only two small books of the Bible. False security believers go to any lengthin trying to explain away these simple passages because they so clearly contradict their theory. Some of them go so far as to deliberately mistranslate the Greek and quote self made translations of men to prove that such simple statements do not mean what they say. For example, they mistranslate "they have cast off their first faith" to "they have broken their former promises" as if this proves a person cannot be lost. The Greek word "pistin" from "pistis" is never translated promises out of hundreds of times it is used in the New Testament. It is translated "faith" 222 times and is refered to as having faith in Christ in Rom. 1:5,16, 17; 3:25; 4:5-20; 5:1, 2; 10:17; Gal. 2:20; 3:24-29; Eph. 2:9; 4:5; etc. Thus the "faith" that they made shipwreck" of, "denied," "cast off," "erred from," and did "overthrow" is the true saving faith and has no reference to some promise that the people made themselves. They could not cast off, deny, and make shipwreck of, this saving faith if they had not once had it. They could not get into a snare of the devil AGAIN unless they had once been delivered from him. They could not have "turned aside" AGAIN after Satan, if they had not been following Christ. They could not have ERRED FROM the faith through hurtful lusts that "drowned in destruction and purdition" if they had not been once in the faith and free from such lusts. They could not have their faith OVERTHROWN if they had none to overthrow.

 

Utter nonsense and unbiblical... sounds like an education through Chick-Tracts.

 

Edited by Teditis
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On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:44 PM, MyLordsServant said:

Is one of the thrones reserved for Judas? Or for the newly chosen 12th.

Why did Jesus say "YOU"(meaning inclusive of all disciples), if he knew Judas would be betray him.

"Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

God did allow the devil to enter Judas. Did he use him as a temporary tool in order for scripture to be fulfilled?

When Judas came to his senses, he did repent by returning the silver pieces, back to the priests. He acknowledged his sin.

He did commit suicide, but once saved always saved? I think any person in the right mind would want to kill themselves, after betraying the Son of God.

Jesus gave him a title

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV
Judas is lost and titled so as!

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4 hours ago, Teditis said:

Utter nonsense and unbiblical... sounds like an education through Chick-Tracts.

 

Removed from thread.

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11 hours ago, Teditis said:

Utter nonsense and unbiblical... sounds like an education through Chick-Tracts.

 

Only in your personal opinion and  pet theories. 

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On 10/30/2018 at 1:28 PM, Teditis said:

Utter nonsense and unbiblical... sounds like an education through Chick-Tracts.

 

Hi Teditis, Welcome back to worthy, your presence has been missed, sorry to see that you where banned from being able to defend your position on this thread. Oh well, glad to see you back anyways, and looking forward to hearing you  share in other posts.

God Bless your friend and fellowman in
Christ Jesus Always;1to3    _

peace in Christ Bro!

Edited by 1to3

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On 10/30/2018 at 3:44 PM, enoob57 said:

Jesus gave him a title

John 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
KJV
Judas is lost and titled so as!

@enoob57 Thanks, Steven. Straight and to the point. This scripture should be enough.

Anything beyond it is mere speculation and perhaps wishful thinking(?) Although I have :noidea: no idea  why this man should be pitied by us. I have not heard sympathies for the betrayer of our Lord since the blasphemous musical 'Jesus Christ Superstar.'(where Mary Magdalene sings, "he's just a man and I've had so many men before. In very many ways he's just one more." and He is left dead on the cross as a deluded man)... So why would believers be thinking like Webber? Very sad day :(for the church.

 

 

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