Will there be a per-trib rapture

[wingnut-]

On 2/6/2018 at 7:01 PM, JoeCanada said:

Will there be a pre-trib rapture?

 

Nope.

[brakelite]

12 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

And a future individual called the antichrist will attack Israel at the middle of the period .... the Bible says so

No, the Bible says no such thing. Anywhere. At all, to no-one. And it seems you didn't read my all my post. There is NO period for the tribulation for there to be a middle of. And like I said, the antichrist has been here for 1500 years and counting. And every reformer agrees with me. You have only the skewed interpretive lies of Jesuits to back up your eschatological perspective. The reformers had first hand experiential knowledge as well as the prophetic word. The reformers had European dark age tyranny and every false doctrine under the sun...as well as the historical fulfilment of every scripture pertaining to the antichrist unfold before their very eyes...every criteria of the antichrist literally being played out in their lifetime...just as we are witnesses to the global expansion of that same antichrist in our time. Open your eyes and cast away the Roman deceptions.

[brakelite]

11 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

You understanding of scripture , and the basic English comprehension is lacking . 

Firstly Noah was lifted ABOVE THE EARTH  thus Jesus's connecting Noah's separating " ABOVE THE EARTH "  to the calling up of the raptured above the earth :

 

                                                    " ....and bare up the ark , and it was LIFT UP ABOVE THE EARTH. "  ( Genesis 7 : 17 ) 

 

Secondly " Noah and his family "   being lifted   "ABOVE  THE EARTH " , and separated by God Himself  were not  " witnesses" to anything  on the earth .

They saw nothing . 

God sealed them away from the earth and any view of it until Forty days had been completed :

                                                     

                                                                 " ....at the END of forty days , that Noah OPENED THE WINDOW of the ark ..."   ( Genesis 8 : 6 ) 

 

The ark being completely sealed by the hand of God for 40 days  to any witnessing of judgement or  of anything else . 

So says the Word of God . 

 

Once again we have the very familiar  scenario of the  post-trib crowd running headlong in the solid  rock wall of God's Word in their purposelessness , while the pre-trib 

position is in complete prophetic concord with the Word of this Jesus who is the Christ .

 

 

 

 

                                                                               

Okay, so if you want the "as in the days of Noah" to be taken literally, you are forgetting that while in the ark they were in the midst of the most violent storm and upheaval the earth had to that time, and since, experienced. If you don't think they were afraid and sea-sick, and praying earnestly to their God to save them, you are mistaken. They were not removed from the chaos. Far from it. They were smack in the middle of it, being thrown about and storm tossed and remember, they were not sailors. The disciples feared for their lives on a storm in the lake of Galilee and they were experienced hardened fishermen. Noah, his wife, and their family had never even seen a boat, let alone been on one on calm sea ...they likely had never swum a stroke in their lives...nothing they could do could keep them safe but pray and have faith that God would watch over them. They were going through the most difficult time of their lives...far greater hardship than building the boat and being abused by neighbours. They were NOT in heaven having a good time. You can safely assume that there were many angels keeping that boat afloat and encouraging the occupants constantly that all would be well. All this is not a picture of a rapture where people are removed entirely from the wrath to come. You have no idea of the magnitude of the coming crisis and to think you wont be here is gross presumption and NOT Biblical teaching. Read again the parable of the tares and wheat. That is your rock solid wall. 

Allow me to present a little history. In 1825 a small group of men, dissatisfied with the spiritual
condition of the Protestant Church in Ireland, met in Dublin to
spiritually strengthen one another. Soon other groups were formed
in Ireland and in England. The most famous of these was the one in
Plymouth.
This group came to be known as the Plymouth Brethren. Among the notables in these fellowships were Edward Irving, Dr. S. P. Tregelles and John Nelson Darby (who joined in 1827). At some point during this time, Edward Irving heard some mysterious utterances in an unknown tongue telling him that there was going to be a secret rapture of the church before the visible coming of Jesus.
This was a new concept in the incredible journey of futurism. Futurists
themselves will admit that this idea was alien to the Christian church until the 19th century. Dr. S. P. Tregelles, who, as we have noted, for some time belonged to the Plymouth Brethren movement but later abandoned it describes Irving’s experience:
“I am not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the Church at a secret coming, until this was given forth as an utterance in Mr. Irving’s church, from what was there received as being the Voice of the Spirit. But whether anyone ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology arose. It came not from Holy Scripture, but from that which falsely pretended to be the Spirit of God.” (S. P. Tregelles, The Hope of Christ’s Second Coming, first published in 1864, and now available at Ambassadors for Christ, Los Angeles, California).
From 1830 onward, a series of conferences were held at Powerscourt Castle in Ireland. We know that Edward Irving attended some of these as did John Nelson Darby and other key leaders of the Plymouth Brethren. At these meetings literalistic futurism became the prophetic methodology of choice and the idea of the secret rapture was adopted. The views established at these conferences soon spread like grassfire and penetrated other denominations.

George Eldon Ladd:
“It would probably come as a shock to many modern futurists to be told that the first scholar in relatively modern times who returned to the patristic futuristic interpretation was a Spanish Jesuit named Ribera. In 1590 Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem, abolish Christianity, deny Christ, persecute the Church and rule the world for three and a half years.” (George Eldon Ladd, The Blessed Hope, Grand Rapids: Eerdman’s, 1972, p. 37).
Next I will quote Joseph Tanner: “ So great a hold did the conviction that the Papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men, that Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to counteract the identification of the Papacy with the Antichrist. Accordingly, towards the close of the century of the Reformation two of her most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavoring by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men’s minds from perceiving the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system.

Roman Catholic, G. S. Hitchcock, states: “The Futuristic School, founded by the Jesuit Ribera in 1591, looks for Antichrist, Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, at the end of the Christian Dispensation. . . The Praeterist School, founded by the Jesuit Alcasar in 1614, explains the Revelation by the Fall of Jerusalem, or by the fall of Pagan Rome in 410 A. D.” (G. S. Hitchcock, The Beasts and the Little Horn, p. 7).
Well has Tanner remarked: “It is a matter for deep regret that those who hold and advocate the futurist system at the present day, Protestants as they are for the most part, are thus really playing into the hands of Rome, and helping to screen the Papacy from detection as the Antichrist.
It has been well said that ‘Futurism tends to obliterate the brand put by the Holy Spirit upon Popery.’ More especially is this to be deplored at a time when the Papal Antichrist seems to be making an expiring effort to regain his former hold on men’s minds.” (Joseph Tanner, Daniel and the Revelation, [London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1898], p. 17).

Let us look at those Biblical passages most commonly used in support of the rapture theory, and that form the basis for the ‘left behind’ phenomenom.

As we study these scriptures we must realise that all of them are in the context of prophecy regarding the second coming of Jesus Christ. It is the second advent that climaxes all the above crisis’ and is the focal point of all prophecy.

Matthew 24:37-41  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now please note carefully what Jesus is saying here. First, the second coming will be affected in precisely the same way as the great flood. The unrighteous will not be aware of the signs of the times, they shall be living at ease, living life as normal with little or no thought of eternity, when they shall be taken all away.

Let us go to the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke. You will note that Luke adds a little more detail giving a slightly different perspective.

Luke 17:26-37  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.  In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.  Remember Lot’s wife.  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.  I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

The people that Matthew says are taken away,  Luke adds that they are destroyed. Thus the ‘taken away’ aspect or context of what Jesus is telling His disciples equates to death or destruction. This is borne out later in Luke’s passage when the disciples ask Him, “where are they taken to?” Jesus answer concerning the gathering of eagles around the carcasse echoes the following:

Revelation 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

I am beginning to think that being left behind isn’t such a bad alternative.

[OneLight]

We will be caught up at the last trumpet or trump, as spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.  Anything beyond this is just personal theology on the rapture.  When will this trumpet sound?  Scripture does not tell.

[Daniel 11:36]

"Matthew 24:37-41  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

 

Here is your problem

You think that this passage age of scripture is written for all rather than it's specific application

It is applied to Israel alone during the 70th week decreed for the nation

The Lord is speaking to Israel in the coming tribulation period

[OneLight]

12 minutes ago, Royff said:

The Rapture of the Anti-Christ

Most in the church doesn’t realize the power the occult wields over them, most in the church are deeply involved in the occult and don’t even know it and don’t want to know. How do I know? Because I thought I could be both, a Christian and an occultist, I was very advanced in the occult, I could astral project almost at will [a demonic game of playing with death] I could have lucid dreams almost at will, have flying dreams to or three times a week. Why am I bringing these things up? Because these are some of the occult experiences that are deceiving the church and having them believe that these experiences are from God. The more of these occult experiences the more people believe they are moving closer to God, it’s a form of signs and wonder seeking of which the Lord denounced. How are the Christian deceived into their induction into the occult? Its through meditation!

There is meditation and there is what Christian are led to believe is meditation but is actually invocation, invoking and inviting evil spirit beings to make contact with and through them. True meditation is what king David did, when he meditated he always had something on his mind, that something was the Lord, the mind is filled with the Lord and the things of the Lord. In the type of meditation [invocation] that is taking place in the church today the meditator is instructed to clear the mind of all thought [the opposite of what David did]. In clearing the mind don’t want you to even think [don’t even think on the Lord] in this condition all defenses are down all protection from evil spirit beings are gone. This type of invocation just one of the many forms of yoga, awakening the coiled serpent at the base of the spine [spiritually speaking] and encourages it to move up into and take possession and control of the soul. As the person continue this practice on a regular basis, at some point kundalini [the serpent] takes full control and the person in now spirit possessed, but its not the Holy Spirit, though kundalini has convinced them that it is.

Now the person doesn’t know they are possessed by a deceiving spirit, they are not forming from the mouth trying to hurt themselves and other, no, that’s for the blood drinker and human flesh eater, the highest form of initiation into the kingdom of Satan. But for your basis yoga session attending Christian theirs is to infest the congregation with the spirit of kundalini. This is the same spirit the flies through the night skies and convince people that its some advanced being from across the cosmos that are here to save mankind from itself, when actually, it’s the anti-Christ, in the form of the mind captivating UFO; Satan transforming himself into a being of light.  It is this kundalini-UFO connection fear of Armageddon that is sure to come to cause many fearful Christians to hitch a ride on the first thing leaving this planet. It’s all fear based!

So now, how does kundalini, Lucifer, Satan the anti-Christ get all these Christians to beg him to rapture them in his rapture-mobile to hell? Well, the master plan has already been completed, through twisting and a misuse of the word by the fearful Christian. They, through the influence of kundalini have taken a single verse of scripture, lifted it out of its context and has built a whole false doctrine around it.  “There will be two working in the field, one will be taken and the other left” now kundalini through book like “Left Behind” and many other publications and movies have the world looking forward to people by the millions disappearing from the face of the earth, and those left behind begging him to rapture them and take them to heaven where they the others has disappeared to.

But if they stop twisting the word of God they would realize, there one appearance that produces all or most of the miracle of the Christ, but this is the counterfeit, that must come first before the Lord makes His appearance. Now among these miracles of the anti-Christ must be the number one event that all Christians look forward to with hope; the rapture. How is the anti-Christ going to convince the world that he is the Christ it he doesn’t start rapturing somebody? People the world over must start disappearing because this is what they have come to believe, so how in the world is kundalini going to convince anyone that he is the messiah if he doesn’t have his very own rapture before the true rapture? We must not let to man in his fearful state make us forget that all the counterfeit miracles that must be perform by the anti-Christ before the true Christ appears, that include a counterfeit rapture; THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE OF THEANTI-CHRIST!

THE OCCULT WORKINGS OF KUNDALINI THAT DECIEVES THE ENTIRE INHABITED EARTH!

First, if someone has the Holy Spirit, they cannot be demon possessed.  Darkness cannot be in the same place a Light.  By saying it can be, it is like claiming Satan has more power than God and can kick Him out whenever he wants to.

Claiming that the anti-christ is the one who is going to rapture Gods people is calling scripture a lie.  Care to show us, through scripture, how being caught up to be with the Lord, found in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 , is actually from Satan?  All you have provided is your personal belief with no sound scriptural proof.

[WilliamL]

On 2/6/2018 at 6:07 PM, ENOCH2010 said:

Will there be a pre-trib rapture ?  NO

8 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Nope.

And again, no.

Luke 21:36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you [disciples of Jesus] may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes

All what things?

Luke 21:25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

Stick to the instruction that Jesus gave to his disciples about his Coming, and you will not be deceived by any pre-tribulation rationalizations.

[ScottA]

2 hours ago, Yowm said:

Unlike God, we have finite bodies and so there exists a 'when'.

In the world only.

[Keras]

No, there will not be a pre-tribulation rapture removal to heaven of anyone. 

This idea is never stated in the Bible, what we are told to do is to stand firm in our faith, trusting in the Lord for His protection and to endure until the end. 

Two prophesies make it plain that the Lord's holy people are present on earth during the time the Anti-Christ has world control. Daniel 7:23-25 and Revelation 13:5-8    

People who like to believe in a 'rapture', should take careful note of Hebrews 12:5-12   We must face discipline and testing...If you escape the discipline in which all the children of God must share, then you are illegitimate and not a true child of God. 

[OneLight]

11 minutes ago, Keras said:

People who like to believe in a 'rapture', should take careful note of Hebrews 12:5-12   We must face discipline and testing...If you escape the discipline in which all the children of God must share, then you are illegitimate and not a true child of God. 

I believe I have asked your before, but never received a reply, or I was never notified that you responded to my question.

What do you make of 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, since you say there will be no rapture?

As for Hebrews 12:5-11, those who are His are being disciplined through His chastening and rebuke.  Why do you associate this to the time of the tribulation?