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Will there be a per-trib rapture


JoeCanada

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21 minutes ago, Royff said:

That’s the whole point of my argument, many thinks that are indwelled by the Holy Spirit when in fact, it’s the unholy spirit of kundalini, the counterfeit holy spirit. Right now, you have people leave the church on Sunday Morning, claiming to be filled with the Holy Spirit and go right out and attend a Beyoncé concert, there’s no way a person filled with the Holy Spirit would be there, the two spirits are in direct conflict, but trying to tell that to the person who just left Sunday service. They know that they know that they are filled with the spirit, but from the moment they walk into that concert they prove that the spirit that indwells them is not the Holy Spirit of God because they would be repulsed by what goes on there. You cannot unite the Holy with the profane!

Sure, you have people running around in the church speaking in tongues, blowing on people and they fall backward talking about they are slain in the spirit. Many times, they walk on all fours barking liked gods, and because they see this spirit manifestation in the church they are convinced that this is the Holy Spirit, so just because someone attend church every Sunday and say a lot of Amends does not prove that they are filled with the Holy Spirit even though there is much spirit manifestation they are surrounded by. The church is full of people including many pastors teaching and preaching doctrines of devils, twisting and adding to and talking away from the word to be accepted for friendship with the world, a world that said is his enemy. That’s your church today filled with peopled living in sin and the pastors refusing to warn the sinner that their sins will land them in hell.

These are the people who has convinced themselves that they are filled with the Holy Spirit when in fact, by their actions they prove that the spirit that indwells them is the same unholy spirit they have served that will await to rapture them to his kingdom. That’s where they must go because that’s the spirit they served who convinced them to not preach against the sin of man lying with man because they didn’t want to lose friendship with the world. That’s the disobedient spirit they are indwelled by, the spirit they serve, the unholy spirit that makes them deny the Word of God before the world; and they have convinced themselves that this is the Holy Spirit. Yea’ the spirit of deception is working mightily in the end-time church!  If you a person who is truly filled with the Holy Spirit, then they wouldn’t be trying to escape the earth at a time of tribulation when there will be so many souls needing direction pointing them to salvation. The whole pre-trib rapture doctrine is one of fear and the worry about self and not the flock of God and filled with soldiers who are ready to cut and run when the battle heats up. O’ what a terrible bunch of warrior this end-time church has raised up!   

I know you are new here, so please that this a s a suggestion.  Unless you can give specifics about what you claim, it will not be accepted by those who search for the truth.  It may make them think a little, but unless there are facts to back up statements, it is seen as an opinion only.

May  ask how you can provide proof that "many thinks that are indwelled by the Holy Spirit when in fact, it's the unholy spirit of kundalini"?  I have never heard of it or  Dharma until I had to look it up?  I have a feeling I may not be alone either.  How can you prove this, or is this just an opinion? 

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3 hours ago, OneLight said:

We will be caught up at the last trumpet or trump, as spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.  Anything beyond this is just personal theology on the rapture.  When will this trumpet sound?  Scripture does not tell.

However, scripture does tell us that the resurrection of the righteous takes place on the last day.

  • For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

This resurrection is "the dead in Christ" who will rise first.  It takes place on the last day.  So you could say, at the last trumpet, on the last day.  Doesn't sound very "pre" to me.  Also . . .

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 informs us that our gathering together to Him (rapture) happens on the day of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 states that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night.

Jesus says in Revelation 16:15 that He is coming like a thief, which is in the context of the armies gathering together for the last battle.

If someone were willing to put all the pieces together, its a pretty clear picture.

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On 2/6/2018 at 6:01 PM, JoeCanada said:

Will there be a pre-trib rapture? We can know the answer to the question with certainty.  The timing of the rapture hinges on what the verse  2 Thessalonians 2: 3 really says.  Does the Greek words ho aostasia in this passage mean “rapture” or “apostasy. ”  All other rapture arguments are secondary to this one.

 

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed. (2 Thess. 2:3)

The main controversy in this passage is what the Greek words translated ” the apostasy” [ho apostasia] mean.  Believers in a Pre-Tribulation rapture say it is a code word for “the rapture.” Believers in the Pre-Wrath position say it means “the rebellion  from the faith.”

Paul states at the beginning of this very verse that we are not to be deceived.  It is incumbent on every Christian to understand this passage because there is great deception in the Church about this verse.  One side of the argument is obviously correct and the other is deceiving the Church.  It is the responsibility of every Christian to understand the argument of this contested passage and teach the truth.

Church historians believe that Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians were the earliest letters that Paul wrote with 1 Thessalonians dating to 52 AD (about 20 years after Jesus’ resurrection) and 2 Thessalonians being written a year later.  In these early letters of Paul, he discusses more end time issues than he does in all his other letters to the churches combined.

It appears that after Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians, the Church at Thessaloniki received a forged letter from someone claiming to be Paul.  Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians to answer the mistaken views that the forgery produced.  It is in that setting that the controversial section finds itself.

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,  who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God,displaying himself as being God. (2 Thess. 2: 1-4 NASB)

Before we examine the exegesis of ho apostasia, let’s examine the passage in context because meaning is always found in its surroundings.

WHAT PAUL SAID BEFORE THIS

Context means whatever comes before it and what comes after.  The passage before this one (2 Thess. 1: 4-12) lays the groundwork for the discussion. We see in verse 4 that the Church was undergoing severe persecution.  This in combination with the forged letter, led many to think the Day of the Lord (God’s Wrath) had begun.  In verse five Paul makes an enormously important point:

This (the persecution) is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.  (2 Thess. 1: 5-8 NASB, clarification and emphasis mine)

The first thing we learn is that persecution of the Church is normal and even considered a sign that believers are considered worthy of the Kingdom of God.  Those who argue that the purpose of the rapture is to prevent persecution need to read this verse.   Paul is teaching that persecution, even severe persecution,  is normal and a sign from God that we are worthy.

This passage then also states that upon the return of Jesus, He will give relief to those who are afflicted and punish the wicked who afflicted us.  By this Paul is re-assuring the Thessalonians that they haven’t missed the rapture,  it hadn’t happened yet because they haven’t seen their relief upon the return of Christ.

He also mentions that Christ’s Holy Angels are part of His coming.  This is to reassure them that it will not be a silent rapture.  Paul is saying Christ will be “revealed” in flaming fire.  It also shows that God begins pouring out his wrath once the Church is removed.

IT WILL NOT COME UNLESS

Paul then launches into the controversial passage.  He begins by reassuring the Thessalonians again that Jesus has not come and raptured his Church yet.  The reason he mentions the Day of the Lord (the Wrath of God) is that the rapture (the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him) must come before the Day of the Lord. God will not let his Church experience his wrath.

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (2 Thess. 2: 1-2 NASB)

Next comes the verses that cause all the controversy.

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,  who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God,displaying himself as being God. (2 Thess. 2: 3-4 NASB)

Paul says that “it” (the Day of the Lord and the rapture that precedes it) will not come unless two things happen: “ho apostasia” (the controversial words) and the revealing of the Antichrist.  Verse four proves this “man of sin” is the Antichrist because he is the one who sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be god.  Only the Antichrist does this.  It is how the Church will identify him.  All the “Antichrist theories” out there today are meaningless.  Only by sitting in the Temple can we know for sure the man is Antichrist.

WHICH COMES FIRST

Some in the church teach that “ho apostasia” happens first and then the Antichrist is revealed.  They teach this because of Paul’s use of the word “first” after “ho apostasia.”  Paul, however, consistently uses “first then” if he means a sequence of events.  He always does this.  It is a consistent pattern in is writings. An example is found in the most famous rapture verse of all.

The dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together.  (1 Thess. 4: 16-17 NASB, empahsis mine)

Because Paul does not use the word “then” in conjunction with the word “first,” we can be assured that “ho apostasia” and the revealing of the Antichrist are two events that happen at the same time and both precede the rapture.  We know that the revealing of the Antichrist is his sitting in the Temple of God.  We know from MIDPOINT OF THE TRIBULATION: EARTH’S PERSPECTIVE  that this occurs at the Midpoint of the Tribulation.  Nearly all commentators believe this. We have already proven the rapture cannot occur until 3 1/2 years after the Tribulation has begun when the Antichrist is revealed.  

SO IS IT RAPTURE OR APOSTASY

So now let’s finally look at the etymology of the words ho apostasia.  The first word ho means “the.”  This means that this apostasia is the definitive one.  There may be others but this is the significant one.

This is what HELP’S Word-studies and Strong’s Dictionary say about the second word:

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, “leave, depart,” which is derived from 575 /apó, “away from” and 2476 /histémi, “stand”) – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, “a leaving, from a previous standing.”

Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

Several older 15th century English translations of the Bible claimed the word meant “the departure.”  These mis-translations were based on one of the words apostasia was derived from: aphistemi.  This mis-translation led those who support a Pre-Tribulation rapture to say that this word is a “code word” for rapture: “the departure.”

But as can be clearly seen above, apostasia means “departure from a previous standing. ” It means a rebellion or defection from the faith in this context.

This is not the only time this word is used in the new testament.  The other use of this word in Acts cements its true meaning:

You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. (Acts 21: 20-21 NASB, clarification and emphasis mine)

In this passage, the elders of the Church at Jerusalem were talking to Paul.  They told Paul that the faithful Jews in Jerusalem had been told that he was teaching the gentiles to apostasia Moses.  By this, the elders obviously meant the Jews were told that Paul was teaching gentiles to depart from the faith imparted by Moses.

This exact match of meaning proves that apostasia means rebellion from the faith or falling away from the faith.

WHAT COMES AFTER THIS PASSAGE

After the controversial passage, Paul supports this meaning of apostasia:

The one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness (The Antichrist) for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. (2 Thess. 2: 9-12 NASB, clarification and emphasis mine)

Is Paul talking about those who were already opposed to Christ or is this passage about those falling away in the great apostasy?  Those already opposed to Christ don’t need a deluding influence to oppose Christ, they are already fallen.  In this passage Paul is is discussing the reason that former professing saints will fall away in the great apostasy .   This is critical because Paul would not have included this follow-up passage explaining the great apostasy  unless he had just mentioned it a few verses earlier.   Otherwise Paul would have simply been entering a random thought into his letter. This contextual proof is further supports our position that a pre-tribulation rapture is absolutely without merit.

SUMMARY

We have learned:

  • Apostasia means apostasy or rebellion from the faith.
  • Persecution is normal and a sign of worthiness.  The rapture is nota means of escaping persecution.
  • The rapture won’t be silent.  Jesus will come with his Holy Angels and fire.  The wrath of God will begin immediately after the rapture.
  • The rapture cannot occur until after the Antichrist is revealed at the midpoint of the Tribulation (Daniel’s 70th Week) and after the great apostasy which begins at the same time.

Now that we know these things, the passage in 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4 completely shatters two theories:

  • the pre-tribulation rapture theory
  • the theory that the rapture is imminent (that no other prophecies must be fulfilled prior to the rapture.)

If you currently are holding either of these theories, I am sure this post has been challenging.  The theory of a pre-tribulation rapture is one of the most comforting theories held by the Church, but if it is wrong it is incredibly dangerous. The Church needs to prepare itself for what is to come.  Thinking we will avoid persecution and possible martyrdom is a path to potentially falling away when faced with the truth.

Consider and pray about these things.

(Nelson Walters....."Are we ready for Jesus")

John 16:33 – Jesus Christ said to His followers, “In the world YOU shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Acts 14:22 – Paul told Christians, “WE through much tribulation must enter the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 24:21,22 – Jesus said there would be “great tribulation” which His followers (the “elect”) must endure. Yet for “the elects sake, those days shall be shortened.”

Romans 5:3 – True Christians are to “glory in tribulations” because “tribulation works patience” and develops Christian character.

Revelation 1:9 – John was our “companion in tribulation.”

Revelation 2:9 – To His church, Jesus said, “I know your works and tribulation…”

Revelation 2:10 – Again to His church, Jesus said, “YOU shall have tribulation…”

Revelation 7:14 – God’s final people “came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” They did not escape it, but endured through it, being purified.

 

 

Its Departure of the Church.....we just had a bad translation by the KJV which everyone fell for. 

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2 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

However, scripture does tell us that the resurrection of the righteous takes place on the last day.

  • For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

This resurrection is "the dead in Christ" who will rise first.  It takes place on the last day.  So you could say, at the last trumpet, on the last day.  Doesn't sound very "pre" to me.  Also . . .

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 informs us that our gathering together to Him (rapture) happens on the day of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 states that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night.

Jesus says in Revelation 16:15 that He is coming like a thief, which is in the context of the armies gathering together for the last battle.

If someone were willing to put all the pieces together, its a pretty clear picture.

Let me see if I understand you correctly.  You are saying that the last trumpet will happen on the last day, which would mean that the church age will end at that time, correct? 

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7 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Let me see if I understand you correctly.  You are saying that the last trumpet will happen on the last day, which would mean that the church age will end at that time, correct? 

I'm not sure what you mean by "church age will end" but I will say that the last day is in reference to Satan being the god of this world.  The last day is the day of the Lord when Jesus returns and those in Christ are made immortal.  It is the last day of Satan's millennia long rule and the first day of Christ's millennium.  It's the realization of what's been foretold by the prophets, and the central theme of prophecy, exercising dominion.

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13 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "church age will end" but I will say that the last day is in reference to Satan being the god of this world.  The last day is the day of the Lord when Jesus returns and those in Christ are made immortal.  It is the last day of Satan's millennia long rule and the first day of Christ's millennium.  It's the realization of what's been foretold by the prophets, and the central theme of prophecy, exercising dominion.

First, the church age is this age, the time between His resurrection and His return.  After His return is the millennium where He will reign for 1000 years.

Not sure where you get that Satan ruled for 1000 years.  Where is that is scripture?

Are you also saying that the 7 bowls will also be on the day of Jesus return?  If so, then when will the battle of Armageddon be?  The 6th bowl dried up the river Euphrates so the kings of the east could gather and prepare for this battle. 

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4 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"Matthew 24:37-41  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

 

Here is your problem

You think that this passage age of scripture is written for all rather than it's specific application

It is applied to Israel alone during the 70th week decreed for the nation

The Lord is speaking to Israel in the coming tribulation period

Jesus was ministering to Israel during the 70th week. through the first 3 and 1/2 years in person...then at Calvary He made the sacrifice and oblation to cease....the final 3 and 1/2 years through the apostles. Between the time of pagan Rome (the iron of the legs Daniel 2) and the mix of iron and clay ('Christian' church and state apostasy) there is no gap of 2000 years...just as there is no gap between the 69th and 70th weeks. The entire prophecy of Danial 9 refers to Messiah. It is a Messianic prophecy, and the greatest of them. A Messianic prophecy that if recognised by Israel would convert the entire nation.How ironic that the church wants it to be about the antichrist.

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14 minutes ago, OneLight said:

First, the church age is this age, the time between His resurrection and His return.  After His return is the millennium where He will reign for 1000 years.

Not sure where you get that Satan ruled for 1000 years.  Where is that is scripture?

Are you also saying that the 7 bowls will also be on the day of Jesus return?  If so, then when will the battle of Armageddon be?  The 6th bowl dried up the river Euphrates so the kings of the east could gather and prepare for this battle. 

Satan has ruled for thousands (millennia) of years, ever since the fall.

My view on the trumpets and bowls is that together, they make up the seven plagues.  Trumpet #1 begins plague #1 and bowl #1 ends plague #1, etc.  The trumpets and bowls are the beginning and ending markers of the seven plagues.  What happens on the day of the Lord when Jesus returns is:

  • the seventh trumpet sounds, beginning the seventh plague
  • Jesus appears in the clouds and sounds the trumpet of God
  • the ungodly are destroyed - Armageddon, etc.
  • the seventh bowl is poured out, ending the seventh plague
  • Christ begins His 1000 year reign.

All of that in one day.

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2 minutes ago, Royff said:

Now you are trying to play games with me, I just gave you a list of evidence that they spirit that indwells many in the church is not the Holy Spirit, but since you insist, I’ll again bring out proof positive that the of what the word of God states, and the church of man disobey the Lord’s direct command in.
 

Here's most in the church both pastors and teachers:

If a man also lies with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” [Lev 20:13]

Now according the word of God, for a man to lie with another man is an abomination, just about every Christian Church in these end-times refuses to preach that this is an abomination before God. Now this can easily have proven to anyone who is seeking the truth, just walk in just about any end-time and just mention this word of God and see how fast they usher you out of that church, because you have offended the sinner by just mentioning what thus said the Lord. You tell me is this an abomination before God?  

I maybe new to this site, but I’m new to the gospel of Christ, I’m not new to the game of, I pull out a few scripture verses and try to drill them into you and you pull up your verses of scripture of and try to drill them in to me,  that is a circle that men have gone around in with this doctrine for the few hundred years now. As far as proving anything, you have proved nothing but that you can twist scripture to corm the fears of the fearful Christian. Its not for you to determine where a person may find light, because you, by this false doctrine you are spreading has shown that your doctrine is void of light.  Many people just throw scripture around because they really don’t have much to say and need to fill in the void.

Believe it or not, you can over scripture someone, just repeating scripture and not taking the time to put four or five paraphs together, helping the person you are trying to reach reason through scripture, help them use their reasoning mind. This is where many Christians evangelist fall short and drive many seekers to the occult, where they don’t hear the same repetitions over and over. Be more creative, the Word of God doesn’t have to be a bore. Help the seeker reason through what you are trying to get across to them. There’s nothing worst then to just throw scripture after scripture art a seeker and not pull them into what you are saying. I’ve been witnessing for Christ for year, I know what really gets people interest, you must start with that, unless you grab their interest, they may listen to you for a little while but they will soon get bored, because all you are doing is keep hitting them with the same verses of scripture without taking the time to really pull them into what you are saying.

Now don’t get me wrong, scripture is the most important thing, but there is a time for scripture and there are to just help the seeker to reason through things, in other words, there is an art to evangelism, and no matter how much we argue back and forth, the main purpose is to get the person interested in Christ and the things of Christ. The more interesting you are the more you get the person interesting in what you are doing. My way has been very effective for years, many people have told me that I make them think, and that’s my goal, to make them think, and not forget about what we talked about 10 minutes after we part company.  You may not like my methods, but I know they work, I’m not new to this, but I’m true to this!  

Please don’t play that game of you prove this, because even God himself can be proven but must be accepted on the evidence and faith!  

As far as kundalini I intend to explain it further, but it can’t be don’t in a few paragraphs, trying to bunch everything in one little response to me is fruitless because much will be lacking, but no matter what I come up with it will no more poof than what you come up with. Everyone must look at the evidence and decide for themselves what is truth and what is not, not because you or I say it’s true.

Playing games?  I don't have time for game playing with you.  You didn't give any evidence, you gave your opinion.  Just like the statement of "just about every church" or "many in the church".  Have you visited just about every church in the world to be able to judge them?  Are you such a world traveler that you can speak about them first hand?  I highly doubt it as those people with that much time and money would not come here talking opinions.

I gave you no scripture whatsoever, so I am not sure where you are going with this or even why. The quote you did of my post was speaking to Last Daze, not you.

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12 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Satan has ruled for thousands (millennia) of years, ever since the fall.

My view on the trumpets and bowls is that together, they make up the seven plagues.  Trumpet #1 begins plague #1 and bowl #1 ends plague #1, etc.  The trumpets and bowls are the beginning and ending markers of the seven plagues.  What happens on the day of the Lord when Jesus returns is:

  • the seventh trumpet sounds, beginning the seventh plague
  • Jesus appears in the clouds and sounds the trumpet of God
  • the ungodly are destroyed - Armageddon, etc.
  • the seventh bowl is poured out, ending the seventh plague
  • Christ begins His 1000 year reign.

All of that in one day.

That's impossible.  How can this be all in one day?  Why would the locus on the 6th Trumpet torment those who do not have the seal of God on their forehead for 5 months if it is all to happen in one day?  Each scroll is separate from the trumpets. Each trumpet is separate from the bowls, Each bowl stands alone.  There are similarities, but they are not the same.

Remembering why I don't post here much.

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