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Will there be a per-trib rapture


JoeCanada

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First point to clarify: There is no 'rapture to heaven' for any body at any time. Nowhere does the Bible say that and Jesus tells us it is an impossibility.

Second: At the glorious Return of Jesus, He will send out His angels to gather the faithful survivors to Him. Matthew 24:30-31.  This is what Paul is talking about in 1 Thess 4:15-17. It will be a transportation, similar to what happened to Philip. Acts 8:36

Lastly, the only time that immortality will be conferred to those worthy for it, is at the Great White Throne Judgment, when the Book of Life is opened. 

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6 hours ago, Royff said:

I went back and looked at the Book of Revelation again, and what I found again is that the first five chapters were warnings to the church of the things that were about the come upon the church and earth and also the scene in heaven and up to this point there is no mention of  anyone being rapture to heaven. Then chapter 6 opens with the opening of the seven seals which is the introduction of the tribulations coming upon the earth. It starts with the opening of the first seal and the Anti-Christ riding out on a white horse to conquer the world.

Now up to this point when the anti-Christ rides out to conquer the world, this has got to be a world war and no mention of a rapture; in fact, the last thing was a warning to the church was to be strong in the face of that which they are about to face. As the war escalates, a red horse rides out, now the world war is in full bloom, no peace anywhere on earth. This is great tribulation with the nuclear weapons that the world has pointed at each other. This is not a war like back in the days of Rome, this is nuclear-showdown. And still no mention of the saints being taken out of the world.

After that we find drought, that followed by death and hell all the way down to the heavens being rolled back like a scroll and the moon turning to blood, we are talking about Armageddon here and still no mention of the saints taken out of this world yet, because the anti-Christ has made his appearance, because Lord had not returned for His people yet. Jesus’ appearance comes as the Day of the Lord, that’s later on in the process, when there will be two in the field one will be taken, and one will be left. Even in this great war people will still be working, some to continue to rebuild the loss military machinery destroyed in the war, the people fighting the war and all people of the earth still must be fed, so of course, there will be two working in the field when the Lord returns. If everybody stops working when the war starts, there would be no war.

Moving on down to verse 17 chapter 6 they cry goes out that the wrath of God has come, but not the Lord himself, so He has not gathered His people from the four winds yet because he has not appeared yet. We will know when the Christ appears because He rides out on a White Horse just as the counterfeit Christ rode out on. Now the servants of the Lord are not even mentioned in the midst of all this destruction until chapter seven verses three, and even then, they are not taken out of the world but an angel sent to mark them sand they tand in the world as a witness for the Lord.

Now we come to chapter eight where there is silence in heaven for about a half an hour, I’m sure it doesn’t mean a half hour in earth time. Now during this time there are still prayers sent “up” to heaven by the saints who are still in the earth. Now we move to chapter nine where it seems that after a period of silence in heaven and some time of peace on earth, the war resumes, and the trumpets began to blast, and the war is intensifying. Asteroids hit the earth, one third of life is destroyed, one third of sea creatures are destroyed etc. and even now the Lord doesn’t remove his servants from the earth, but sent an angel to mark them, not to rescue them from the earth, but show the power of God to protect his own even in the midst of Armageddon

Now all kinds of diseases break out probably from nuclear fallout, but in the midst of it all the Lord’s servants are untouched by it. It is not until chapter 14 that an angel appears with a sharp sickle and the separates the wheat from the shaft. Two in the field, one taken and the other left!

I looked and looked for a rapture of the saints before the war of Armageddon in the Book of Revelation, it just not there!

Evidently you missed the 24 elders in chp. 4 and 5. An elder is a leader of a group or body of believers who is blameless, the husband of one wife with obedient children. They have crown's on their heads. All this before Christ even takes the Scroll.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Revelation 3:10

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26 minutes ago, Royff said:

I’m sure that every person that were redeemed and died is somewhere with the Lord in a heavenly state. The question is how they got there, what route did they take to get there. Chapter 4 or 5 makes no claim that the 24 elders got there by rapture it really doesn’t give us very much information about these 24 elders. You bring up a good question as to who these 24 elders are, but we can’t read our interpretation into a point where scripture is silent, we can’t create an argument from silence.

There is no other way (but the Rapture) that they could have gotten there.  1 Peter 5:4 - And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.  2 Tim 4:8 -  Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Crowns are offered only to the Believers in Christ, His Bride.  So the big question is how did these 24 elders in heaven receive their crowns?  John says we will receive these crowns on "that day" and "to all who have longed for his appearing".

So according to Scripture, which John states "that day" has already happened for these 24 elders in heaven.  And all this before Christ opens the Scroll.

1 Thes 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (His Appearing). 

So one cannot read into Scripture as you say that this appearing is the same as the 2nd Coming.  The Chief Shepherd appearing verses the King of King and Lord of Lords arriving to the Mt of Olives.  So you can't create an argument from silence.  So can you tell me when the 2nd Coming will happen?

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

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6 minutes ago, Royff said:

 

Here’s the problem with that, twelve of these could be disciples, I don’t think it gets elder then they, they were there at the beginning of the gospel and yet they were not raptured they died like other men.  So, are you saying the disciples haven’t received their crown of righteousness, have not Jesus made His appearance to them? That could not have been the appearance that the Lord spoke of because the Lord said that everyone would witness His appearance. I never witness his appearance, and I don’t think you have. So, Peter gives the impression that all will l receive that crown on that day, a single day in time, if it had already happened, then you and I should be wearing our crown. We should be now throwing them at the feet of Christ.

“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” [Rev 4:1]

Notice, these things was not happening in the presentence, it was going to happen hereafter. Here after what? Here John was given a picture of what was going to happen in the future. So, at that point when John was viewing this seen none of this had taken place, it was a thing to happen hereafter. Again, I would ask, here after what? The only thing I can see that the hereafter means would be after the things He had just described what the church will face. It’s after these things takes place. But still that hereafter is the mysterious thing here. But it certainly was not in the present, it had not taken place yet. If it had John would be wearing his crown. The 24 elder that John saw not there wearing their crown yet, it was yet a future event; hereafter! I’m still working on that hereafter part!

Also if this has already happened then why are you still here, if after this all believes has been caught up in the air to be with the Lord, then something has gone wrong with the plan.

Concerning the 24 elders, they were in the throne room before the Lamb was slain.  Compare chapter 4 with chapter 5 and note the similarities and differences.  Of note is:

  • Chapter 4 - the seven spirits of God are seven lamps.  There are 24 elders worshiping God.  There is no lamb.
  • Chapter 5  - no one anywhere was found worthy to open the scroll (the Lamb had not been slain).  After the Lamb appears,  the seven spirits of God are part of the Lamb, the 24 elders worship God with a new song.

It's my belief that the 24 elders are spirit beings.  Regardless, they absolutely can not represent any new covenant persons because they were there before the Lamb was slain.

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13 minutes ago, Royff said:

Also if this has already happened then why are you still here, if after this all believes has been caught up in the air to be with the Lord, then something has gone wrong with the plan.

Because the day of His appearing has not happened yet.  So the rewards and crowns have not been give out.  After this Rev 4:1, after the letters to the 7 Churches and their outcomes.  So in essence, after the Church age, the Age of Grace, Christ appears and gives out rewards and crowns.  Then the 24 elders who sit of the 24 Thrones which surround the Throne of God.  Notice they all have Crowns, which are only given to those of the Bride/Body of Christ.  When the Chief Shepherd appears and the Bride is taken away, rewards and crowns will be given out according to 1 Peter 5:4.  Elders are appointed leaders of the Church.

Say there is an elder put on trial; and they say, "renounce the Lord Jesus Christ" and we will not kill your 35 relatives, your 6 children and their children and his wife.  They all are brutally killed before him and yet he does not renounce Christ.  This Elder may qualify to be one of the 24 Elders seated around the Throne of God. He lost all, but he gained everything.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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36 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Concerning the 24 elders, they were in the throne room before the Lamb was slain.  Compare chapter 4 with chapter 5 and note the similarities and differences.  Of note is:

  • Chapter 4 - the seven spirits of God are seven lamps.  There are 24 elders worshiping God.  There is no lamb.
  • Chapter 5  - no one anywhere was found worthy to open the scroll (the Lamb had not been slain).  After the Lamb appears,  the seven spirits of God are part of the Lamb, the 24 elders worship God with a new song.

It's my belief that the 24 elders are spirit beings.  Regardless, they absolutely can not represent any new covenant persons because they were there before the Lamb was slain.

Last Daze

You need to re-read Chapters 1-3, then 4:1 - After this I looked and what must take place after this.  Now you have predated the letter to the 7 Churches to before Christ was slain.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Last Daze

You need to re-read Chapters 1-3, then 4:1 - After this I looked and what must take place after this.  Now you have predated the letter to the 7 Churches to before Christ was slain.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Not everything that is written after 4:1 happens after the seven churches, for example, parts of Revelation 12.  Some of it provides background information.  Such is the case with chapters 4 & 5.  Chapters 4 & 5 are there to establish the worthiness of the Lamb to open the scroll and bring about the end of Satan's rule.  If you disagree with that, then please tell me where Jesus was when the question was asked in Rev 5:2.

  • And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:2-3

If Revelation 4 & 5 is chronologically after the seven churches, as you presume, then where was Jesus?  He wasn't in heaven and he wasn't on the earth or under it.  Where was He?

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The Lord is always present, has been, is, and will be .... no doubt 

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17 minutes ago, Royff said:

You took one verse of scripture and has added a lot to it:

“And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.” [1 Peter 5:4]

What’s the address of the scripture where it states that an elder is told to renounce God or 35 members of his family will be kill, his 6 children and his wife. You are entering realm of pure speculation, whomever the elders are, my question is show me where and at what point were they raptured from this earth. I agree it takes place after the age of Grace or after the last church age. But, no man knows the hour or date, I’m asking you to identify when this happened if it has already happened. Who do you know anyone that has already been raptured, if it has already happened and the elders has already been raptured, where is your rapture.

Or are you saying it is still in the future? Again, how can you be sure 12 of these elders are not the disciples of Christ, the most elder of the elders who were not raptured? Nowhere in this is there anything that these beings were raptured from the earth whomever they are. Show me somewhere in scripture where it states that they were raptured before the tribulation period, you can’t because it’s not there. You can create scenarios and speculate on that, but this only show that you can’t prove it by scripture or you wouldn’t have to go into your imagination and pull out something to convince yourself.  

All I said was that an elder who had all his relatives and family killed before him and had not renounced Jesus Christ may qualify to be one of the 24 elders. This happens in Muslim countries, China, or other anti Christian countries. I cannot say that any of the 12 Apostles will be part of the 24. Some may I do not know.  The Rapture happens at an unknown time according to Matt 24:36 and 25:13.

So Royff, when does this Rapture happen, can you provide me with Scripture of its exact time.  If you can reveal the time of the Rapture, I can call you either God the Father or just another one with a wild guess.  Yes the Rapture is still future, 2000 years and counting, if Pre-Trib, I have no idea when this date will be, If Mid, PreWrath or Post one can be defendant of making a close or near stab at it.  Once the 70th Week begins the Clock starts ticking down to Armageddon (seven years and counting) and the 2nd Coming.  Hopefully your worthiness is in Christ Jesus and not your ability to go through some trial with have been happening for the past 2000 years.

A good question to ask; How many Christians of the Past have seen the true/real A/C, or Satan face to face.  One will get their chance during the 70th Week.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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