No one ever goes to Heaven in NT times either!

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, ScottA said:

I have not "purported" an "interpretation" as you presume, but rather shared what was given to me from God. But since you do not know and do ask, it is a quote:

Mark 4:11

And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,

Shalom, ScottA.

And, as usual, Christians will INVARIABLY take a Scripture verse OUT OF CONTEXT and misuse it! Another flaw in common Christian thinking is the dichotomy of universalisms. KEEP IT IN CONTEXT!!!

Look at what Yochanan Marcus (John Mark) was reporting:

Mark 4:1-12 (KJV)

1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land. 2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without (outside), all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

We're talking about the Sea of Galilee or Lake Kinneret in Israel. This huge crowd was literally gathered around the lake there at K'fer-Nachuwm ("Capernaum") and Yeshua` was aboard a fisherman's boat with His disciples and others who were close. These were needed to sail the boat and provide the seamanship needed to control the craft, which was long enough to launch a large net into the sea and pull in whatever fish they could lure there with chum. Of course, they weren't fishing for fish at the time, but they were still needed for the control of such a boat.

This, then, is the difference between these groups of people: Some are WITHIN the boat on the lake; most are OUTSIDE the boat on the shore! This instance was definitely NOT "Christians vs. the rest of the World!"

The word "mystery" is rather unfortunate, as well. Today, the word "mystery" carries with it a sense of eeriness or strangeness. The word simply means a "secret" and should be translated that way. It's a SECRET of the Kingdom of God. And, according to Yeshua`s words, it was INTENDED to be secret so that those who had no interest in God's Kingdom would NOT perceive what they saw or understand what they heard!

Furthermore, Yeshua`s quote was not about "all things" period; it was about "all THESE things unto THEM!" You can't just use Yeshua`s statement as though it was a general truism! That's IRRESPONSIBLE!

 

[ScottA]

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, ScottA.

And, as usual, Christians will INVARIABLY take a Scripture verse OUT OF CONTEXT and misuse it! Another flaw in common Christian thinking is the dichotomy of universalisms. KEEP IT IN CONTEXT!!!

Look at what Yochanan Marcus (John Mark) was reporting:

Mark 4:1-12 (KJV)

1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land. 2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without (outside), all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

We're talking about the Sea of Galilee or Lake Kinneret in Israel. This huge crowd was literally gathered around the lake there at K'fer-Nachuwm ("Capernaum") and Yeshua` was aboard a fisherman's boat with His disciples and others who were close. These were needed to sail the boat and provide the seamanship needed to control the craft, which was long enough to launch a large net into the sea and pull in whatever fish they could lure there with chum. Of course, they weren't fishing for fish at the time, but they were still needed for the control of such a boat.

This, then, is the difference between these groups of people: Some are WITHIN the boat on the lake; most are OUTSIDE the boat on the shore! This instance was definitely NOT "Christians vs. the rest of the World!"

The word "mystery" is rather unfortunate, as well. Today, the word "mystery" carries with it a sense of eeriness or strangeness. The word simply means a "secret" and should be translated that way. It's a SECRET of the Kingdom of God. And, according to Yeshua`s words, it was INTENDED to be secret so that those who had no interest in God's Kingdom would NOT perceive what they saw or understand what they heard!

Furthermore, Yeshua`s quote was not about "all things" period; it was about "all THESE things unto THEM!" You can't just use Yeshua`s statement as though it was a general truism! That's IRRESPONSIBLE!

 

Funny fish story. Ha Ha. Full of insight. Right. Bravo again! But since you categorize me, I will trouble you no more, but leave you to your blather.

[ytLiJC]

On 2/7/2018 at 6:43 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, everyone.

I know that this will be unpopular and some will say downright alarming, but we are NOT told that we go to heaven when we die. As I've said in other threads, the "soul" is NOT independent from the "body." Genesis 2:7 bears repeating:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In Hebrew (transliterated), this is...

B'reeshiyt 2:7 (JPS Tanakh)

7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et-haa'aadaam `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayipach b'apaayv nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayaah:

7 Vayiytser = And-formed
YHWH = YHWH; the-LORD; ADONAI
Elohiym = God
et- = (the next word is the direct object)
haa'aadaam = the-man
`aafaar = of-the-dust
min-= from
haa'adaamaah = the-ground
vayipach = and-he-breathed
b'apaayv = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayiym = of-living-things
vayhiy = and-became
haa'aadaam = the-man
l-nefesh = to-an-air-breather
chayaah: = living:

Therefore, God FORMED the MAN, NOT the BODY of the man! And, the MAN became a living air-breather once air was puffed into his nostrils. Furthermore, the term "soul" IS this "air-breather."

Strong's dictionary say it like this:

5315 nefesh (NEH-fesh). From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) -- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Which comes from the root word, the verb form,...

5314 naafash (naw-FAHSH). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air) -- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

So, it's not some "immaterial part" of a person; it's talking about the fact that this body - this PERSON - is alive and breathing!

The word "spirit," translated from the Hebrew word "ruwach," means a "wind," or by resemblance, the "breath":

7307 ruwach (ROO-akh). From ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible [palpable] (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions) -- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

Which comes from its root word, the verb form,...

7306 ruwach (roo-AKH). A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication) perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy) -- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

When a person ceases to breathe, when he or she "breathes his/her last (which thankfully may not really be his or her last because of the Resurrection)" - "gives up the ghost" - "gives up the spirit" - "gives up the breath" - then he or she ceases to be an "air-breather." He or she ceases to be a "soul," and he/she awaits the Resurrection. Therefore, "soul" ("air-breather") = "body" + "spirit" ("breath").

Now, let me quickly add that I DO believe in an afterlife of blessing for the believer, but that doesn't begin until the Resurrection and culminates in that which many CALL "Heaven" because of its description, the New Jerusalem, descending to the New Earth THROUGH the "heavens" and landing upon this New Earth. It is THERE - within this New Jerusalem - that one will find the descriptions that many assign to "Heaven," namely (1) the streets of gold, (2) the golden city, (3) the gates of pearl, (4) the river of the water of life, (5) the tree of life, (6) the jasper walls, (7) the foundations consisting of several precious gems, and of course, (8) the throne of God and of the Lamb.

This brings us to one more definition: "Heaven" itself:

The Hebrew word translated as "heaven" or "heavens," depending upon the English version of the Bible one uses, is "shaamayim":

8064 shaamayim (shaw-MAH-yeem). Dual of an unused singular shaameh {shaw-meh'}; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve) -- air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).

As noted, this is a DUAL word, neither singular nor plural in the multiple sense. The dual number is most often used for things that come in pairs, particularly body parts, such as the eyes, for instance. The author of this Strong's entry suggests that it refers to the atmosphere and to space visible beyond it, and in a sense, that's true. However, it really refers to the fact that the sky itself comes in a pair - the day sky and the night sky.

Some make the mistake of thinking that Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 have a gap of time between them, but that is NOT how Hebrew literature works. The first verse is a SYNOPSIS of what is to follow. They frequently "telegraph their punches" in literature. If one is honest with himself or herself, he or she will realize that the words "et hashaamayim v'et haa'aarets" ("the heavens and the earth") in Genesis 1:1, the direct objects of God's creative power, are GIVEN those names by God in the following verses! Verse 8 in context says,

Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV)

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven (Hebrew: shaamaayim). And the evening and the morning were the second day.

God named this expanse of air between the waters above and the waters below, "shaamayim!" Adding the definite article "ha-" to this word gives one the word in Genesis 1:1, "hashaamayim."

Verse 10 in context says,

Genesis 1:9-13 (KJV)

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth (Hebrew: erets); and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it wasgood. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

God named this dry ground "erets!" Adding the definite article (which also changes the vowel pointing) gives one the word in Genesis 1:1, "haa'aarets." There were no previous "skies and earth" because God hadn't created the expanse-between-waters and the dry-ground, yet! That wasn't accomplished until days 2 and 3 of the Creation week!

Regarding this "shaamayim," this is where the birds are said to fly:

Genesis 1:20-23 (KJV)

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament [expanse] of heaven (Hebrew: hashaamaayim = "of-the-[2]-skies"). 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

That basically limits this expanse to the atmosphere. One might wonder about the fourth day:

Genesis 1:14-19 (KJV)

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

However, one should notice that this passage always uses the word "lights," never the "sun" or the "moon."

 

New Testament time is the time in which people have access to "heaven" more than ever, and people can go to "heaven" even now, it is another question what "heaven" is

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (CSB) "I know a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know; God knows. I know that this man — whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know; God knows — was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a human being is not allowed to speak."

a person can be in the "heaven" not only in the afterlife but also while still living in this world (as St Paul says in the above passage), because "heaven" is the system of good(ness) working in people who are good or do good; this means a person can live in "heaven" by being good and doing good regardless of whether they (physically) live (or their (physical) location is) in this world or not

Revelation 12:10-12 (NET Bible) "Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “The salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the ruling authority of his Christ, have now come, because the accuser of our brothers and sisters, the one who accuses them day and night before our God, has been thrown down. But they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die. Therefore you heavens rejoice, and all who reside in them! But woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you! He is filled with terrible anger, for he knows that he only has a little time!”"

good/righteous people reside in "heaven", while the idolaters and occultists, as well as people who commit spiritual lawlessness in general, reside in the "earth" and the "sea" - we should again take into account the fact that this is said without regard to (physical) location (the "heaven" is the system of good(ness), the "earth" is the system constituting the apparent diversity of good, while the "sea" is the system ancillary to the work of overall salvation and life's provision needed in this world and constituting the base of the "south kingdom" - in fact, the last two systems appear to be (as it were) the seat of the satanic kingdom - another important fact is that the paradisaical world to come also consists of "heaven" and "earth"(Rev 21:1), because there can be no "earth" without "heaven", nor complete form of life without "earth" - "heaven" and "earth" are a whole)

Blessings

Edited February 10, 2018 by ytLiJC

[wingnut-]

If no one ever goes to heaven, someone should have told John he was seeing things.

 

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

He was seeing things here as well, and also hearing things too apparently.

 

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

[Retrobyter]

On 2/8/2018 at 5:10 PM, HAZARD said:

Sorry, Yes it does say this in Scriptures. Jesus flesh and bone body went into the tomb and His spirit actually descended into Hell while His body was in the tomb. This is the truth. Maybe you should keep seeking? 

In Matt. 12:40; For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Eph. 4:7-11, we read that Christ went "in the heart of the Earth" and into the lower parts of the Earth" during the time His body was in the tomb. This is what David by the Holy Spirit meant in Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:25-27, "For thou wilt not leave my soul in Hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" in the grave.  

During this time in Hell, Christ preached to the spirits in PRISON (1 Peter 3:19).

 1 Peter 3:19, By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 

Shabbat shalom, Hazard.

Sorry, but this theology does not correctly reflect God's Word. Didn't the Scriptures say that Yeshua` said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit?" And then, you say, "His spirit actually descended into Hell?"

This is the ridiculous nature of theology: piecing obscure passages together to make up a story that the Scriptures never overtly support. This is why we have the allegorical interpretation in the first place!

Passages of Scripture are ONLY "obscure" when one doesn't take the time to investigate its source, either the context of the passage itself or the context of the portion quoted from the Tanakh (the OT). And, what contributes to their "obscurity" is the body of definitions one has accepted by which he or she interprets those passages of Scripture.

It was suggested that I should talk about the words translated as "hell," and I think that would be a good idea.

There were FOUR words translated as "hell" in the KJV: "Sh'owl" (commonly written "Sheol") in the Tanakh; and "hadees" (commonly written "hades" or even "Hades"), "ge-enna" (commonly written "gehenna"), and "tartaro-oo" (a verb commonly written as its noun "tartaros" or "tartarus").

7585 sh'owl (sheh-ole'). Or sh'ol {sheh-ole'}; from shaa'al; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.

7592 shaa'al (shaw-ahl'). Or shaa'eel {shaw-ale'}; a primitive root; to inquire; by implication, to request; by extension, to demand -- ask (counsel, on), beg, borrow, lay to charge, consult, demand, desire, X earnestly, enquire, + greet, obtain leave, lend, pray, request, require, + salute, X straitly, X surely, wish.

Sometimes, Strong's is susceptible to the same error that has been incorporated into theology today. But, if one will go back far enough, one will find the truth: The verb form "shaa'al" is a primitive root word meaning to ASK! And, "sh'owl," the noun form, means "that which is asked about."

When one came to a grave site marker with his family, his children would ASK about the marker: "What is this?" "Who was he (she)?" "Why was this person important?" There are several tombs that are so marked and were important to the children of Israel: The Tomb of the Patriarchs, where Avraham, Sarah, Yitschaq, Rivkah, Yisra'el, and Le'ah were buried; Rachel's Tomb; David's Tomb; Avshalom's Tomb; Z'kharyahu's Tomb, etc. Quite often, the history of their lives as recorded in the Tanakh (the OT) would be repeated to their children, keeping their memories alive.

It was NOT "the world of the dead" or a "subterranean retreat!" It was the grave, the tomb, the sepulchre of an individual, particularly its marker identifying the person buried there.

The Greek word "hadees" is found in Strong's like this:

hadees (hah'-dace). From a (as negative particle) and eidoo; properly, unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls -- grave, hell.

Here, the Greek word means the "unseen" much as we use the word the "unknown." It brings to mind the phrase "out of sight, out of mind." Again, it is the place where the dead are buried "out of sight and out of mind." Indeed, it is used as a Greek translation word for the Hebrew word "sh'owl." One must go back to that place from time to time to be reminded of who was buried there and what importance he or she had.

In this particular case, however, we have a history of Greek mythology tied into the word, NONE of which should be employed as part of the word's definition for the New Testament! HaSatan, the devil, is NOT the "god of the underworld," as he is often portrayed, nor is "hadees" his domain! On the other hand, it works to his advantage to perpetuate that myth!

I'm going to skip now to "tartaro-oo":

5020 tartaro-oo (tar-tar-roh'-o) From Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment -- cast down to hell.

This is a bit of a problem. Wikipedia gives us this information at Tartarus - Wikipedia:

In Greek mythology, Tartarus (/ˈtɑːrtərəs/; Ancient Greek: Τάρταρος Tartaros) is the deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans. Tartarus is the place where, according to Plato's Gorgias (c. 400 BC), souls are judged after death and where the wicked received divine punishment. Like other primal entities (such as the Earth, Night and Time), Tartarus was also considered to be a primordial force or deity.

Later, it adds,

In Greek mythology, Tartarus is both a deity and a place in the underworld. In ancient Orphic sources and in the mystery schools, Tartarus is also the unbounded first-existing entity from which the Light and the cosmos are born.

In the Greek poet Hesiod's Theogony, c. 700 BC, Tartarus was the third of the primordial deities, following after Chaos and Gaia(Earth), and preceding Eros, and was the father, by Gaia, of the monster Typhon. According to Hyginus, Tartarus was the offspring of Aether and Gaia.

As for the place, Hesiod asserts that a bronze anvil falling from heaven would fall nine days before it reached the earth. The anvil would take nine more days to fall from earth to Tartarus. In the Iliad (c. 700 BC), Zeus asserts that Tartarus is "as far beneath Hades as heaven is above earth."

While according to Greek mythology the realm of Hades is the place of the dead, Tartarus also has a number of inhabitants. When Cronus came to power as the King of the Titans, he imprisoned the one-eyed Cyclopes and the hundred-armed Hecatonchires in Tartarus and set the monster Campe as its guard. Zeus killed Campe and released these imprisoned giants to aid in his conflict with the Titans. The gods of Olympus eventually triumphed. Kronos and many of the other Titans were banished to Tartarus, though Prometheus, Epimetheus, Metis and most of the female Titans were spared (according to Pindar, Kronos somehow later earned Zeus' forgiveness and was released from Tartarus to become ruler of Elysium). Another Titan, Atlas, was sentenced to hold the sky on his shoulders to prevent it from resuming its primordial embrace with the Earth. Other gods could be sentenced to Tartarus as well. Apollo is a prime example, although Zeus freed him. The Hecatonchires became guards of Tartarus' prisoners. Later, when Zeus overcame the monster Typhon, he threw him into "wide Tartarus".

Originally, Tartarus was used only to confine dangers to the gods of Olympus. In later mythologies, Tartarus became the place where the punishment fits the crime....

RESIST this mythology! It is NOT God's truth! No, the only reason for this VERB, tartaroosas, was the idea that it was consignment to death to await judgment and the just, righteous sentencing to follow!

2 Peter 2:1-16 (KJV)

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

4 For if God spared not the angels (Greek: aggeloi = "messengers") that sinned, but cast- them -down-to-hell (Greek: tartaroosas = "sent-to-Tartaros"), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with theirunlawful deeds;) 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; 14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: 15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

Kefa (Peter) gives us the information we need to complete the puzzle: The "angels" or "aggeloi" or "messengers" were not supernatural messengers but were HUMAN "messengers of God" who sinned, the FALSE PROPHETS!

The last of the four, "ge-enna" is a transliteration of the Hebrew phrase, "gei-hinnowm" meaning the "valley of Hinnowm," a very literal and a very real place just outside the walls of the Old City of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem).

I gave a full answer on this in the topic "he Bible teaches us Hell is real:" [sic], February 2, 2018 at 12:54 a.m. to KiwiChristian, followed by a synopsis in a second post shortly thereafter. Here's the synopsis:

Quote

 

First, let me assuage your misgivings: I DO BELIEVE STRONGLY in a Lake of Fire! "Hell" is just the wrong word for it, although it is probably that to which the word "Hell" refers.

When the Greek word "gehenna" is used, it is talking about the NEGATIVE RESULTS (the GOATS) FROM THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF THE MESSIAH AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MILLENNIUM, NOT the Great White Throne Judgment at its END! It's a NATIONAL judgment, not an INDIVIDUAL judgment! Thus, it determines whether a person is considered a member of a particular nation that is a friend to Israel or a foe! It determines whether that nation can be annexed as an ally or must be conquered as an adversary; however, we should rest assured that it SHALL become eventually a part of the Messiah's Worldwide Empire that He builds for His Father throughout the thousand years to follow.

Thus, the word "Hell" is just too nebulous to distinguish between the two.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, ytLiJC said:

 

New Testament time is the time in which people have access to "heaven" more than ever, and people can go to "heaven" even now, it is another question what "heaven" is

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (CSB) "I know a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether he was in the body or out of the body, I don’t know; God knows. I know that this man — whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know; God knows — was caught up into paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a human being is not allowed to speak."

a person can be in the "heaven" not only in the afterlife but also while still living in this world (as St Paul says in the above passage), because "heaven" is the system of good(ness) working in people who are good or do good; this means a person can live in "heaven" by being good and doing good regardless of whether they (physically) live (or their (physical) location is) in this world or not

Revelation 12:10-12 (NET Bible) "Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “The salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the ruling authority of his Christ, have now come, because the accuser of our brothers and sisters, the one who accuses them day and night before our God, has been thrown down. But they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die. Therefore you heavens rejoice, and all who reside in them! But woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you! He is filled with terrible anger, for he knows that he only has a little time!”"

good/righteous people reside in "heaven", while the idolaters and occultists, as well as people who commit spiritual lawlessness in general, reside in the "earth" and the "sea" - we should again take into account the fact that this is said without regard to (physical) location (the "heaven" is the system of good(ness), the "earth" is the system constituting the apparent diversity of good, while the "sea" is the system ancillary to the work of overall salvation and life's provision needed in this world and constituting the base of the "south kingdom" - in fact, the last two systems appear to be (as it were) the seat of the satanic kingdom - another important fact is that the paradisaical world to come also consists of "heaven" and "earth"(Rev 21:1), because there can be no "earth" without "heaven", nor complete form of life without "earth" - "heaven" and "earth" are a whole)

Blessings

Shalom, ytLiJC.

A study on 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 is how this all began! The question of "What is the 'third heaven?'" gave rise to an understanding that it is NOT as was stated so suscinctly in the center margin of the old Scofield Reference Bible (KJV) on page 1238:

He states flatly (and without a Bible reference) that ...
the first heaven is “of clouds,”
the second heaven is “of stars,” and
the third heaven is “God’s abode.”

BUT, there are problems with this understanding: WHERE CAN ONE GO WHERE GOD IS NOT?! David said it this way:

Psalm 139:1-13 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.} O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

So, how is there a "God's abode?"

Even Shlomoh (Solomon) said at the dedication of the Temple, the "House of God,"

1 Kings 8:27-30 (KJV)

27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? 28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

There IS a better understanding of what the "third heaven" is:

2 Peter 3:1-13 (KJV)

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in allholy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter tells us that the first heavens were the skies over the earth before the Flood.
The second heavens are the skies over the earth in which we are now.
The third heavens are the new heavens - the new skies - over the earth wherein will dwell righteousness.

Written suscinctly, this becomes...

1st heaven or sky
FLOOD
2nd heaven or sky
FIRE
3rd heaven or sky

It's not a "third heaven" spatially; it's a third heaven SEQUENTIALLY IN TIME! I think it's better to take Peter's words over Scofield's words.

Having said this, let's go back and re-examine 2 Cor. 12:1-4.

In verses 2 and 4, we see forms of the word "harpazoo":

726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo). From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications) -- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up (Greek: harpagenta = "having been snatched away") to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up (heerpagee = "he was snatched away") into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

In this passage of Scripture, note that there is NO word for "up" actually in these verses. This "man in Christ," probably Paul himself, had a VISION OF THE FUTURE, as many prophets of God did before him!

This also involves the understanding of WHERE, or rather WHEN, "paradise" will be. In Revelation, we find it mentioned:

Revelation 2:7 (KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

We are also told where the "tree of life" will be:

Revelation 21:10-22:5 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Therefore, again, this species of the "tree of life" will exist in the New Jerusalem, which has its description usually assigned to "heaven."

Now, look at the word "paradise," a transliterated word from the Greek and that from the Hebrew in turn:

3857 paradeisos (par-a-di'-sos). Of Oriental origin (compare pardeec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise") -- paradise.

And, this entry points us to the Hebrew dictionary of Strong's Concordance:

6508 pardeec (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a park -- forest, orchard.

Therefore, we get a cross section of ...

STREET - PARK (PARADISE) - RIVER - PARK (PARADISE) - STREET

... with the parks and river in the median of the street!

I believe that Paul was telling us he was snatched away to the New Jerusalem in a vision, only he didn't know if it was just a vision or if he had actually traveled into the future. Such is the nature of prophecy given to a prophet.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

If no one ever goes to heaven, someone should have told John he was seeing things.

 

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped (bowed the knee to) God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

He was seeing things here as well, and also hearing things too apparently.

 

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Shalom, wingnut-.

And, you have just answered your own dilemma: "I saw under the altar (at the foot of the altar) the SOULS (air-breathing people) who HAD BEEN SLAIN for the word of God." This occurs AFTER the Resurrection!

Also, notice the highlighted portions in the passages you quote above. Again, there are enough contextual clues to warrant understanding that this multitude of human beings were ALIVE and WHOLE! They were not IN "heaven!"

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

And, you have just answered your own dilemma: "I saw under the altar (at the foot of the altar) the SOULS (air-breathing people) who HAD BEEN SLAIN for the word of God." This occurs AFTER the Resurrection!

Also, notice the highlighted portions in the passages you quote above. Again, there are enough contextual clues to warrant understanding that this multitude of human beings were ALIVE and WHOLE! They were not IN "heaven!"

 

Hey brother,

Actually the dilemma is that they are in heaven, as this is where John places himself at the beginning of Revelation.

 

Revelation 4  After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.

 

Now unless you can provide a verse somewhere within Revelation after this, which reveals John came back down, then the dilemma is not mine. 

God bless

[brakelite]

On 2/7/2018 at 3:43 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, everyone.

I know that this will be unpopular and some will say downright alarming, but we are NOT told that we go to heaven when we die. As I've said in other threads, the "soul" is NOT independent from the "body." Genesis 2:7 bears repeating:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In Hebrew (transliterated), this is...

B'reeshiyt 2:7 (JPS Tanakh)

7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et-haa'aadaam `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayipach b'apaayv nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayaah:

7 Vayiytser = And-formed
YHWH = YHWH; the-LORD; ADONAI
Elohiym = God
et- = (the next word is the direct object)
haa'aadaam = the-man
`aafaar = of-the-dust
min-= from
haa'adaamaah = the-ground
vayipach = and-he-breathed
b'apaayv = in-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayiym = of-living-things
vayhiy = and-became
haa'aadaam = the-man
l-nefesh = to-an-air-breather
chayaah: = living:

Therefore, God FORMED the MAN, NOT the BODY of the man! And, the MAN became a living air-breather once air was puffed into his nostrils. Furthermore, the term "soul" IS this "air-breather."

Strong's dictionary say it like this:

5315 nefesh (NEH-fesh). From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) -- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Which comes from the root word, the verb form,...

5314 naafash (naw-FAHSH). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air) -- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

So, it's not some "immaterial part" of a person; it's talking about the fact that this body - this PERSON - is alive and breathing!

The word "spirit," translated from the Hebrew word "ruwach," means a "wind," or by resemblance, the "breath":

7307 ruwach (ROO-akh). From ruwach; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible [palpable] (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions) -- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

Which comes from its root word, the verb form,...

7306 ruwach (roo-AKH). A primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. Breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication) perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy) -- accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.

When a person ceases to breathe, when he or she "breathes his/her last (which thankfully may not really be his or her last because of the Resurrection)" - "gives up the ghost" - "gives up the spirit" - "gives up the breath" - then he or she ceases to be an "air-breather." He or she ceases to be a "soul," and he/she awaits the Resurrection. Therefore, "soul" ("air-breather") = "body" + "spirit" ("breath").

Now, let me quickly add that I DO believe in an afterlife of blessing for the believer, but that doesn't begin until the Resurrection and culminates in that which many CALL "Heaven" because of its description, the New Jerusalem, descending to the New Earth THROUGH the "heavens" and landing upon this New Earth. It is THERE - within this New Jerusalem - that one will find the descriptions that many assign to "Heaven," namely (1) the streets of gold, (2) the golden city, (3) the gates of pearl, (4) the river of the water of life, (5) the tree of life, (6) the jasper walls, (7) the foundations consisting of several precious gems, and of course, (8) the throne of God and of the Lamb.

This brings us to one more definition: "Heaven" itself:

The Hebrew word translated as "heaven" or "heavens," depending upon the English version of the Bible one uses, is "shaamayim":

8064 shaamayim (shaw-MAH-yeem). Dual of an unused singular shaameh {shaw-meh'}; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve) -- air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).

As noted, this is a DUAL word, neither singular nor plural in the multiple sense. The dual number is most often used for things that come in pairs, particularly body parts, such as the eyes, for instance. The author of this Strong's entry suggests that it refers to the atmosphere and to space visible beyond it, and in a sense, that's true. However, it really refers to the fact that the sky itself comes in a pair - the day sky and the night sky.

Some make the mistake of thinking that Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 have a gap of time between them, but that is NOT how Hebrew literature works. The first verse is a SYNOPSIS of what is to follow. They frequently "telegraph their punches" in literature. If one is honest with himself or herself, he or she will realize that the words "et hashaamayim v'et haa'aarets" ("the heavens and the earth") in Genesis 1:1, the direct objects of God's creative power, are GIVEN those names by God in the following verses! Verse 8 in context says,

Genesis 1:6-8 (KJV)

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven (Hebrew: shaamaayim). And the evening and the morning were the second day.

God named this expanse of air between the waters above and the waters below, "shaamayim!" Adding the definite article "ha-" to this word gives one the word in Genesis 1:1, "hashaamayim."

Verse 10 in context says,

Genesis 1:9-13 (KJV)

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth (Hebrew: erets); and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it wasgood. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

God named this dry ground "erets!" Adding the definite article (which also changes the vowel pointing) gives one the word in Genesis 1:1, "haa'aarets." There were no previous "skies and earth" because God hadn't created the expanse-between-waters and the dry-ground, yet! That wasn't accomplished until days 2 and 3 of the Creation week!

Regarding this "shaamayim," this is where the birds are said to fly:

Genesis 1:20-23 (KJV)

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament [expanse] of heaven (Hebrew: hashaamaayim = "of-the-[2]-skies"). 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

That basically limits this expanse to the atmosphere. One might wonder about the fourth day:

Genesis 1:14-19 (KJV)

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

However, one should notice that this passage always uses the word "lights," never the "sun" or the "moon."

 

Without getting into all the detail of your post, I do agree that not until the resurrection can we expect to see glory. That said, there are some in heaven that by the simple fact that they are seen by the apostle John before the throne of God singing songs of praise and gratitude for their salvation, we must assume they are a part of the redeemed from the earth. I would assume also that these are some of those who were raised at the time of Christ's resurrection and were the first-fruits of His offering when He appeared before His Father . (Revelation 4:4; 5:8-10)

 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, eileenhat said:

There is a lot of argument over this idea of what a 'soul' is.  I do not feel we can discover exactly what it is unless we review the Book of Revelations definitions of as well.

In Rev. 20:4*, 'souls' are resurrected into glorified bodies that rule from thrones.

These saints are the first to be resurrected of mankind.  The rest will resurrect in 1,000 plus years.

Since Rev. 40:4 is specific that only souls resurrect, then we can surmise that is true for those who resurrect in 1,000+ years, ie. only souls resurrect and not bodies.

Hence, we can see here that the people who live on earth are not exactly the same creations as Adam and hence Eve, were once.

Conclusion

Since only souls can be resurrected, then they must be a separate entity from bodies.  An entity that God sees as 'you'.  

As the Bible states**, bodies form dust upon death's embrace.

 

*"King James Bible, Rev. 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

**"King James Version, Ecc. 3:20

All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."

 

Shalom, eileenhat.

Actually, that's not right. You're consistently and persistently separating the "soul" from the "body."

Re-read Genesis 2:7 and tell me where the "soul" is introduced. Again, the "soul," Hebrew word "nefesh," means an "air-breathing" created being. It's just like its verb form "naafash" (naw-FASH) which means "to breathe!" Therefore, the "soul" IS the air-breathing "body!"

Ecclesiastes 3:20 is correct ... up to a point! In the natural world, that's precisely what happens: the chemicals that make up our bodies return to the dust from which we as human beings - children of Adam -  were formed! And, unless the body was mummified or embalmed, it happens very quickly!

HOWEVER, we are awaiting God's intervention in the natural process when He resurrects our bodies and makes us "air-breathing creatures" - "souls" - again! "To resurrect" means "to bring back to life!" Literally, the Greek word is "anastasis" and it means "to stand up!" It's not some pseud0-resurrection of an immaterial part of human beings; it's a REAL, LITERAL resurrection of our BODIES - a resurrection of US!

LOOK CAREFULLY at Paul's arguments in 1 Corinthians 15. They are very logical and straight-forward:

1 Corinthians 15:12-28 (KJV)

12 Now if Christ (the Messiah) be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ (the Messiah) not risen: 14 And if Christ (the Messiah) be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God (LIARS about God!); because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ (the Messiah): whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ (the Messiah) raised: 17 And if Christ (the Messiah) be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep (who have died) in Christ (the Messiah) are perished (gone forever!). 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ (the Messiah), we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (the Messiah) shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: (0) Christ (the Messiah) the firstfruits; afterward (1) they that are Christ's (the Messiah's) at his coming. 24 Then cometh (2) the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The WHOLE CHAPTER is called "the Resurrection Chapter" of the Bible! It would do you a world of good to study 1 Cor. 15! Now, look at how it concludes:

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (i.e. most will die physically, but not all of us), but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Okay, now let's take a different approach: I don't believe in "faith healing." I DO, however, believe in a God who can heal! I DO believe that one can have faith in a God who heals! The faith itself does NOTHING. It is GOD who heals!

HOWEVER, until the Resurrection occurs, all healing in the present is TEMPORARY! We are still bound to the appointment of death at the end of our lives, unless God intervenes, and eventually, we will keep that appointment.

The Resurrection is PERMANENT - "corruptible (decaying) death shall be raised INCORRUPTIBLE (no longer able to decay)" and "this mortal (a body that is able to die) must put on IMMORTALITY (no longer able to die)!"

The Resurrection is a form of CREATION! Because bodies decay, the Resurrection will NOT be like the incomplete resurrections one might see in the movies, like Dracula and other vampires or like zombies, still decaying and falling apart. GOD'S Resurrection will be the re-creation of us - of our bodies given life again. He'll re-create and put all of our parts back together again with the additional features of glory (light shining from our skin, like Moses had), incorruption, and immortality!

I have cancer, although I'm fighting it with surgery and medical knowledge. I'm also doing quite a bit of praying for God's healing, for I KNOW and am ASSURED that God can heal, if He sees it fit to do so. I have COMPLETE CONFIDENCE in a wise God! If He chooses to heal me and I live a while longer, then I will continue to serve Him in whatever capacity He gives me to do. If He chooses to let me die temporarily, I KNOW that I - this air-breathing body - shall live again, being raised incorruptible and immortal! So, like Paul, I can say that, whether I live or die, I am the LORD'S! So, I do not fear death! And, to be absent from the body (the group of believers), I will be present with the LORD at the Resurrection. I shall close my eyes in death, and from my vantage point, I shall a moment later open them in the Resurrection!