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No one ever goes to Heaven in NT times either!


Retrobyter

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23 hours ago, simplejeff said:

This on its own looks sooooo funnnny !     (In LIGHT of YHVH'S PRESENCE FILLS the ENTIRE UNIVERSE, and is still NOT CONTAINED ! )   

 

Maybe because that is not what I was responding to?  This was what I was responding to, as shown in your quote.

 

23 hours ago, simplejeff said:
  On 2/13/2018 at 5:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

God's throne, according to Revelation 21 and 22, is within the New Jerusalem.

 

God bless

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9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, ytLiJC.

There are some fundamental problems that I have with your post. First, the written Scriptures commonly called "the Bible" or "the Word of God" should be our ONLY rule of faith and practice. (It is my only rule of faith and practice.) And, "reading and literal interpretation alone" of those written Scriptures are all we can truly know about God and the things written within those Scriptures which He reveals to us through His indwelling Spirit.

 

Scripture is to be read no more than once, twice or thrice - after all, it is not the very living and active Word of God coming directly out of His mouth but its written record

Hebrews 4:12 (NHEB) "the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.",

Romans 2:28-29 (NHEB) "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from people, but from God.",

2 Corinthians 3:1-6 (NHEB) "Are we beginning again to commend ourselves? We do not need, as do some, letters of commendation to you or from you, do we? You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by everyone; being revealed that you are a letter of Christ, served by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone, but in tablets that are hearts of flesh. Such confidence we have through Christ toward God; not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God; who also made us sufficient as servants of a New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.",

Titus 3:10 (NHEB) "Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning;",

Job 33:14 (NHEB) "God speaks once, yes twice, though man pays no attention.",

Jude 1:12 (NHEB) "These are hidden rocky reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you, shepherds who without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;",

2 Corinthians 13:1-2 (NHEB) "This is the third time I am coming to you. "At the mouth of two or three witnesses will every word be established." I have said beforehand, and I do say beforehand, as when I was present the second time, so now, being absent, to those who have sinned before now, and to all the rest, that, if I come again, I will not spare;",

Hebrews 10:28-29 (NHEB) "Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

 

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"Faith" is VERY misunderstood. It is not a thing; it's simply TRUST in the God who is the Creator of all. Some people talk about it as though it is some power they can wield. It's not. It is merely trust in the God who HAS the power!

 

this is sort of true

 

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Secondly, there are NO "ones who live in the third heaven ... for many consecutive eternities (cycles of eternity)." You're forgetting the importance of several statements made in the Scriptures.

Hebrews 1:1-7 (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And, who exactly ARE these "heirs of salvation?" Yeshua` told us vicariously when He told the Samaritan woman at the well:

John 4:19-22 (KJV)

19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped (Greek: prosekuneesan = "they-worshipped") in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship (Greek: proskunein = "to worship"). 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship (Greek: proskuneesete = "you-shall-worship") the Father. 22 Ye worship (Greek: proskuneite = "you-worship") ye know not what: we know what we worship (Greek: proskunoumen = "we-worship") for salvation is of the Jews.

And, for the sake of clarity, "I worship" is the Greek word "proskuneoo":

4352 proskuneoo (pros-koo-neh'-o). From pros (to or toward) and a probable derivative of kuon (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore) -- worship.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon adds:

STRONGS NT 4352: προσκυνέω

προσκυνέω, προσκύνω; imperfect προσεκύνουν; future προσκυνήσω; 1 aorist προσεκύνησα; from Aeschylus and Herodotus down; the Sept. very often for הִשְׁתַּחֲוָה (to prostrate oneself); properly, to kiss the hand to (toward) one, in token of reverence: Herodotus 1, 134; (cf. K. F. Hermann, Gottesdienstl. Alterthümer d. Griech. § 21; especially Hoelemann, Die Biblical Gestalt. d. Anbetung in his 'Bibelstudien' i., 106ff); hence, among the Orientals, especially the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence ("to make a 'salam'"); Latin veneror (Nepos, Conon. 3, 3),adoro (Pliny, h. n. 28, 5, 25; Suetonius, Vitell. 2); hence, in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used

a. of homage shown to men of superior rank: absolutely, Matthew 20:20 (the Jewish high-priests are spoken of in Josephus, b. j. 4, 5, 2 as προσκυνούμενοι); πεσών ἐπίτούς πόδας προσεκύνησεν, Acts 10:25; τίνι (according to the usage of later writings; cf. Winers Grammar, 36, 210 (197); (Buttmann, § 131, 4); Lob. ad Phryn., p. 463), Matthew 2:2, 8; Matthew 8:2; Matthew 9:18; Matthew 14:33; Matthew 15:25; (); (R G); Mark 5:6 (here WH Tr marginal reading have the accusative); ; John 9:38; with πεσών preceding, Matthew 2:11; Matthew 4:9; ἐνώπιον τῶν ποδῶν τίνος, Revelation 3:9; (it may perhaps be mentioned that some would bring in here Hebrews 11:21 προσεκύνησεν ἐπί τό ἄκρον τῆςῤάβδου αὐτοῦ, explaining it by the (Egyptian) custom of bowing upon the magistrate's staff of office in taking an oath; cf. Chabas, Melanges Egypt. III. i., p. 80, cf. p. 91f; but see below). 

b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings, and to demons: absolutely (our to worship) (cf. Winer's Grammar, 593 (552)), John 4:20; John 12:20; Acts 8:27; Acts 24:11; Hebrews 11:21 (cf. above); Revelation 11:1; πίπτειν καί προσκυνεῖν, Revelation 5:14; τίνι, John 4:21, 23; Acts 7:43; Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 7:11; Revelation 11:16; Revelation 14:7; Revelation 16:2; Revelation 19:4, 20; Revelation 22:8; Revelation 13:4 G L T TrWH (twice (the 2nd time WH text only)); G T Tr WH text; Revelation 20:4 Rec.; πεσών ἐπί πρόσωπονπροσκυνήσει τῷ Θεῷ, 1 Corinthians 14:25; πίπτεινἐπί τά πρόσωπα καί προσκυνεῖν τῷ Θεῷ, Revelation 11:16; preceded by πίπτειν ἔμπροσθεν τῶνποδῶν τίνος, Revelation 19:10. in accordance with the usage of the older and better writings with τινα or τί (cf. Matthiae, § 412): Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:8; Revelation 9:20; Revelation 13:12; Revelation 14:9, 11; also Revelation 13:4 (Rec. twice; (WH (marginal reading once)), 8 (where Rec. dative), 15 R L WHmarginal reading; 20:4a (where Rec. dative), 4b (where Relz dative); Luke 24:52 R G L Tr brackets WH reject; (the Sept. also connects the word far more frequent with the dative than with the accusative (cf. Hoelemann as above, p. 116ff)); ἐνώπιοντίνος, Luke 4:7; Revelation 15:4. 

The only thing I would add is that this is NOT necessarily willingly done or done with pleasure! Thus, "adore" might be subjective. All will "bend the knee" LITERALLY to the Messiah when He reigns as King over the earth, some willingly and even with pleasure, but some involuntarily and with resolve to submit to Him for their own well-being. Yeshua` will, after all, be a formidable and indomitable force, disarming nuclear bombs as well as every other weapon!

Isaiah 54:1-17 (KJV)

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts (Hebrew: YHWH tsva'owt) is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.
15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

Therefore, God will rescue (deliver; save) His people literally and through His Son, the Messiah of God, Yeshua` haMelekh, the King. It is most certainly NOT just "saving His people from their sins," although that is also entailed in the prophecy above in God's statement "their righteousness is of me."

 

it is a fact that the true Saints live for many consecutive eternities, which means they have a greatest reward in "Heaven" for many consecutive eternities compared to others

Revelation 22:5 (BLB) "they will reign to the ages of the ages"

—— (Aramaic Bible) "..... for the eternity of eternities"

of course i don't say there is no interruption of life for them, albeit brief, at the beginning of the eternity(eternal cycle) - after all, God had to create all the universal creation, including not only the "earth" but also the "heaven", just before 5-6 millennia ago

Blessings

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1 hour ago, ytLiJC said:

it is a fact that the true Saints live for many consecutive eternities,

As noted many times in the past,  this is from heresy;  not at all Scripture.

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8 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Maybe because that is not what I was responding to?  This was what I was responding to, as shown in your quote.

 

On 2/13/2018 at 1:23 PM, simplejeff said:
  On 2/13/2018 at 5:35 AM, Retrobyter said:

God's throne, according to Revelation 21 and 22, is within the New Jerusalem.

 

God bless

This loookss sooooo funny !!!     Responding to what it looookss  like   in the context of this thread/ forum/ here and today.

(NOT at all concerning the TRUTH OF THIS - no.....  more like the enormity of YHVH is so overwhelming and overaweing). 

 

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1 hour ago, ytLiJC said:

Scripture is to be read no more than once, twice or thrice

This is completely in error ,  of course, and likely one of the reasons you were led so far astray from YHVH'S Truth as shown by all your ideas and posts so far seen....

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As long as we're saved, where ever we go will be much better than the alternative for the unsaved. 

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21 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hey brother,

Where is it before it comes down to earth?  Because that is where John is during the vision, it doesn't come down til the end.

Well, this is really the problem when we start to over analyze things.  Above the sky, being the first heaven which we can look up and see with our eyes, is not limited to outer space, but also would include the third heaven.  I think you are reading too much into this and limiting what "above the sky" means.  I don't want to go around and round with you though, just wanted to offer this for your consideration.

God bless

Shalom, wingnut-.

Okay, allow me to show you something that you can consider, as well.

If the "first heaven" is the sky, that is, "of clouds" "which we can look up and see with our eyes," and
the "second heaven" (Greek: epouranios = "above the sky") is not "limited to outer space,"
then how can the "second heaven" be "of stars" and not also be "God's abode?"

We call it a "universe" because it is not limited by dimensions, and "as far as we can see," we STILL find more stars and GALAXIES of stars! Some believe that the universe is finite, but others still imagine that it is a TRUE universe because, to date, the limit of the distances has never been found! It's only the Big Bang proposition that suggests a limit to the size of the universe.

If that's true, then where does that put your "third heaven = God's abode?" In another dimension of reality? And, if the New Jerusalem comes down from God out of "heaven," then how far would that city have to come? Or, how could it make the trip from another dimension of reality? Could it make it here in an acceptable amount of time? Can you see how complicated this becomes?

How much easier is it to simply allow Peter to trump Scofield (or whoever invented it)?

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (first heaven) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But (second heaven) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in allholy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (third heaven) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

It's not about the Greek words so much. All one has to do is find the verse or verses that are the "limiting reagents" to the "formula" (definition). For instance, there are three verses in Scripture that use forms of "mesouraneema," and they're all in Revelation:

Revelation 8:12-13 (KJV)

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven (Greek: mesouraneemati), saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 14:6-7 (KJV)

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven (Greek: mesouraneemati), having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Revelation 19:17-18 (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven (Greek: mesouraneemati), Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

In the first two passages, we are told that it's an "angel" that flies in mid-air; however, the third passage says that it's "all the fowls" or "all the birds" that fly in mid-air. Since the angels may be able to fly in a region without air, the third passage is the "limiting reagent," because we KNOW that birds can only fly in the air.

In the case of the uses of the Greek word epouranios, the "limiting reagent" is 1 Corinthians 15:40-41.

Another consideration is in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: In this passage, we are told,

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him (Greek: axei sun autoo = "will-bring with him"). 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (Greek: fthasoomen = "not shall-precede") them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, we consider the order of what we find in this passage: Verses 14 and 15 go together, and then verses 16 and 17 go together. The first pair of verses focus on the order of those who are resurrected/changed, and the second pair focus on the details of the resurrection and ascension:

FIRST PAIR:

a. God brings Yeshua` back to the earth.
b. God brings those who sleep in Yeshua` with Him.
c. We who are alive and remain do not precede them who are asleep.

SECOND PAIR:

1. Yeshua` "(the Lord himself) shall descend from the sky with a shout, with the voice of the chief messenger, and with the trumpeting of God."
2. The dead in Christ shall rise first, coming back to life.
3. We who remain become part of their group.
4. Together we are snatched away into the clouds.
5. We meet the Lord (Yeshua`) in the air.
6. We remain with the Lord forever.

Merging these pairs is a bit tricky because we are to think in Rav Sha'uwl's (Paul's) terms, who being a Paruwsh, that is a "Separatist," thought in the patterns of Hebrew literature.

YOUR ORDER:

a. God brings Yeshua` back to the earth.
b. God brings those who sleep in Yeshua` with Him (Yeshua`).
1. Yeshua` "(the Lord himself) shall descend from the sky with a shout, with the voice of the chief messenger, and with the trumpeting of God."
c. We who are alive and remain do not precede them who are asleep.
2. The dead shall rise first, coming back to life.
3. We who remain become part of their group.
4. Together we are snatched away into the clouds.
5. We meet the Lord (Yeshua`) in the air.
6. We remain with the Lord forever.

I SEE A DIFFERENT ORDER:

a. God brings Yeshua` back to the earth.
1. Yeshua` "(the Lord himself) shall descend from the sky with a shout, with the voice of the chief messenger, and with the trumpeting of God."
c. We who are alive and remain do not precede them who are asleep.
2. The dead shall rise first, coming back to life.
3. We who remain become part of their group.
4. Together we are snatched away into the clouds.
5. We meet the Lord (Yeshua`) in the air.
b. God brings those who had been asleep in Yeshua` with Him (Yeshua`).
6. We remain with the Lord forever.

Thus, you assume that the dead are off in some "Heaven = God's Abode," and come back with Yeshua` to be joined to their resurrected bodies.

I believe that Yeshua` comes back, resurrects the dead persons, who ARE their bodies, joins them to we who are still living, and THEN God brings them all with Yeshua`, not back to "Heaven," but ONWARD TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL!

The order of Revelation is also not as clear cut as one might wish, since it IS, after all, a VISION of the future given to Yochanan! And, as is typical with Hebrew literature, a new subject is telegraphed with a synopsis of what is to follow followed by the details of that subject! Furthermore, not everything in Revelation is presented in order by time, that is, chronologically! Quite often, IMPORTANCE trumps time!

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5 hours ago, ytLiJC said:

 

Scripture is to be read no more than once, twice or thrice - after all, it is not the very living and active Word of God coming directly out of His mouth but its written record

Hebrews 4:12 (NHEB) "the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.",

Romans 2:28-29 (NHEB) "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from people, but from God.",

2 Corinthians 3:1-6 (NHEB) "Are we beginning again to commend ourselves? We do not need, as do some, letters of commendation to you or from you, do we? You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by everyone; being revealed that you are a letter of Christ, served by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone, but in tablets that are hearts of flesh. Such confidence we have through Christ toward God; not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God; who also made us sufficient as servants of a New Covenant; not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.",

Titus 3:10 (NHEB) "Reject a divisive person after a first and second warning;",

Job 33:14 (NHEB) "God speaks once, yes twice, though man pays no attention.",

Jude 1:12 (NHEB) "These are hidden rocky reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you, shepherds who without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;",

2 Corinthians 13:1-2 (NHEB) "This is the third time I am coming to you. "At the mouth of two or three witnesses will every word be established." I have said beforehand, and I do say beforehand, as when I was present the second time, so now, being absent, to those who have sinned before now, and to all the rest, that, if I come again, I will not spare;",

Hebrews 10:28-29 (NHEB) "Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

Shalom, ytLiJC.

In this, you are DEAD WRONG. It's the SCRIPTURES that are the "substance" and "evidence" of our faith! (Heb. 11:1) It's what makes God's commandments and will known to us! We are to TRY the spirits and be sure that we're indeed following the correct spirits to be sure that we are hearing from God and not some false prophet!

1 John 4:1 (KJV)
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

It is God's WORD, the BIBLE, that is concrete and inspired. The Ruwach haQodesh within us doesn't speak to us directly, but rather He resonates with the reading of God's Word to VERIFY what we read!

5 hours ago, ytLiJC said:

this is sort of true

No, it IS true, no "sort of" about it.

5 hours ago, ytLiJC said:

it is a fact that the true Saints live for many consecutive eternities, which means they have a greatest reward in "Heaven" for many consecutive eternities compared to others

Revelation 22:5 (BLB) "they will reign to the ages of the ages"

—— (Aramaic Bible) "..... for the eternity of eternities"

of course i don't say there is no interruption of life for them, albeit brief, at the beginning of the eternity(eternal cycle) - after all, God had to create all the universal creation, including not only the "earth" but also the "heaven", just before 5-6 millennia ago

Blessings

This is a bunch of nonsense! That is certainly NOT what is meant in Revelation 22:5!

Revelation 22:5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

This is only looking FORWARD into time, not backward! And, "saints" are people "singled out" by God. They are NOT "righteous ones," and they certainly are NOT "angels!"

You're only partially right about the Greek of this verse, but look at it in the Greek first:

Apokalupsis 22:5 (UBS Greek New Testament)

5 kai nux ouk estai eti kai ouk eschousin chreian footos luchnou kai footos heeliou hoti Kurios ho Theos footisei ep' autous, kai basileusousin eis tous aioonas toon aioonoon.

basileusousin = they-shall-reign (verb - future indicative active - third person, plural)
eis = into/unto (preposition)
tous = the (article - accusative, masculine, plural)
aioonas = ages (noun - accusative, masculine, plural)
toon = of-the (article - genitive, masculine, plural)
aioonoon. = ages. (noun - genitive, masculine, plural)

Furthermore, I perceive that you have NO concept of "eternity." "Eternity" is INFINITE time. And, as one sees time as on a timeline, an infinite time can be either a whole line (with arrow heads on both ends) or a half line (with a single arrow head on one end and a terminator on the other end). In this particular case, we have a HALF LINE! It stretches forward in time infinitely, but NOT backward. Instead, there is a BEGINNING to their reign!

whole line: <----->
half line: [----->

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18 hours ago, simplejeff said:

As noted many times in the past,  this is from heresy;  not at all Scripture.

 

if you mean the hitherto prevailing translations of Scripture, how can we be sure that reading alone is enough to understand Scripture quite correctly?! - is there a full guarantee that people who have translated the hitherto prevailing versions of the Bible had not allowed a bunch of translational imperfections to slip in?!

i am not a man prone to digging his own grave to spread heresy

 

18 hours ago, simplejeff said:

This is completely in error ,  of course, and likely one of the reasons you were led so far astray from YHVH'S Truth as shown by all your ideas and posts so far seen....

 

error is to (re-)read "shall not hurt your neighbor" dozens/hundreds of times and nevertheless to continue hurting them

Blessings

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17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, ytLiJC.

In this, you are DEAD WRONG. It's the SCRIPTURES that are the "substance" and "evidence" of our faith!

in such a case your "heart" must be filled with paper or nonsense

 

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

(Heb. 11:1)

if some kind of religious faith is the only way for us to truly realize things basically insensible/imperceptible to humans, then how can Scripture(the written record of the God's Word) help us without it?! - after all, St Paul talks about faith in that verse

 

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's what makes God's commandments and will known to us!

reading His commandments/scripture is just the beginning of the path to Him

 

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

We are to TRY the spirits and be sure that we're indeed following the correct spirits to be sure that we are hearing from God and not some false prophet!

1 John 4:1 (KJV)
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

we have to be careful not to be misled by devilish spirits in the process of practicing the faith; however, it seems to be unclear how?!

 

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It is God's WORD, the BIBLE, that is concrete and inspired. The Ruwach haQodesh within us doesn't speak to us directly, but rather He resonates with the reading of God's Word to VERIFY what we read!

do you think that the One Who is really the true God can speak to us only through scripture and cannot speak to us without us reading scripture?! - hardly the One Who created everything from scratch is so limited

 

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, it IS true, no "sort of" about it.

i get the impression as if you overestimate yourself

 

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This is a bunch of nonsense! That is certainly NOT what is meant in Revelation 22:5!

Revelation 22:5 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

This is only looking FORWARD into time, not backward!

do you think that 5-6 millennia ago it was His first time to create all the universal creation since beginninglessness of time?! - how is it possible that there have been countless successive millennia since beginninglessness of time and God decided to create the world only at that point (5-6 millennia ago)?! - is it really likely to turn out that He had been idle for all those countless millenniums since beginninglessness of time and before He created the world 5-6 millennia ago?!

Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 (NIV) "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, “Look! This is something new”? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time. No one remembers the former generations, and even those yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow them.",

Ecclesiastes 3:15 (NIV) "Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account."

 

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, "saints" are people "singled out" by God. They are NOT "righteous ones," and they certainly are NOT "angels!"

how can Saints be unrighteous?! - is it possible that righteous people are not righteous or holy people are not holy?!

it's like saying that lion is not a lion or sheep are not sheep

 

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You're only partially right about the Greek of this verse, but look at it in the Greek first:

Apokalupsis 22:5 (UBS Greek New Testament)

5 kai nux ouk estai eti kai ouk eschousin chreian footos luchnou kai footos heeliou hoti Kurios ho Theos footisei ep' autous, kai basileusousin eis tous aioonas toon aioonoon.

basileusousin = they-shall-reign (verb - future indicative active - third person, plural)
eis = into/unto (preposition)
tous = the (article - accusative, masculine, plural)
aioonas = ages (noun - accusative, masculine, plural)
toon = of-the (article - genitive, masculine, plural)
aioonoon. = ages. (noun - genitive, masculine, plural)

what does this prove?!

just take a look at what strong's concordance says about this word:

Strong's G165 - aiōn
αἰών
Transliteration: aiōn
Pronunciation: ī-ō'n
Part of Speech: masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology): From the same as ἀεί (G104)

meanings:

- for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity

- the worlds, universe

- period of time, age

 

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Furthermore, I perceive that you have NO concept of "eternity." "Eternity" is INFINITE time. And, as one sees time as on a timeline, an infinite time can be either a whole line (with arrow heads on both ends) or a half line (with a single arrow head on one end and a terminator on the other end). In this particular case, we have a HALF LINE! It stretches forward in time infinitely, but NOT backward. Instead, there is a BEGINNING to their reign!

whole line: <----->
half line: [----->

who told you that it is so?!

read what dictionaries say:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/eternity

an eternity - a very long time

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/eternity

1.4 (an eternity) informal A period of time that seems very long

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/eternity

2 [SINGULAR] an extremely long time

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/eternity

2. singular noun
If you say that a situation lasted for an eternity, you mean that it seemed to last an extremely long time

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/eternity

4. A very long or seemingly endless time

5. a seemingly endless period of time

furthermore, how is it possible that a whole infinity of time has passed since beginninglessness of time and souls only now go to live in "Heaven" for all the coming infinity of time?!, IOW, is it likely to turn out that since beginninglessness of time and before God created the world 5-6 millennia ago there had never been a point in time when souls lived in "Heaven"?!, and if souls go to live in "Heaven" for all the coming infinity of time without any interruption in the future, then how does it turn out that billions of souls have been born and suffered in this world under the conditions of sin and death for the last 5-6 millennia (since the day of the Fall)?! - after all, if souls go to live in "Heaven" for all the coming infinity of time, they should not turn out to be in this world under the conditions of sin and death, but they should still be in "Heaven"

Blessings

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