No one ever goes to Heaven in NT times either!

[Pipirip]

Hello,I have read that no one in the new testament has going to heaven. But biblical there are people from the new testament in heaven right now. Do you remember when Jesus died on the cross what happen? Bible teached that the graves burst open and after Jesus resurect they come out. And when Jesus was taken back to heaven,they don't seem those people anymore. 

[Retrobyter]

On 2/16/2018 at 11:55 PM, Pipirip said:

Hello,I have read that no one in the new testament has going to heaven. But biblical there are people from the new testament in heaven right now. Do you remember when Jesus died on the cross what happen? Bible teached that the graves burst open and after Jesus resurect they come out. And when Jesus was taken back to heaven,they don't seem those people anymore. 

Shalom, Pipirip.

Sorry, brother, but YOU DON'T KNOW THAT from the Scriptures! Let's look at the account:

Matthew 27:45-54 (KJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. 48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Mark 15:33-39 (KJV)

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias. 36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down. 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. 38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. 39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luke 23:44-49 (KJV)

44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. 45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. 46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. 47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man. 48 And all the people that came together to that sight, beholding the things which were done, smote their breasts, and returned. 49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.

John 19:28-37 (KJV)

28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. 29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

So, of all four accounts, only Mattityahu's (Matthew's) account, gives us this information. Notice carefully that nothing is said about what happened to them! All we know is from this passage: "50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. " We know that it was AFTER Yeshua` died that the veil in the Temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom. At this moment, the earth did quake, and the rocks were split. Then, we need to be VERY CAREFUL with verse 52: We learn that "the graves were opened, and many bodies of the holy ones who slept (were dead) arose." One should guard against adding words that aren't there in the text. It's okay to IMAGINE that the tombs "burst open," but the word in Greek is simply "aneoochtheesan" which means "[they] were opened." Thus, the text doesn't SAY they "BURST open." Furthermore, the Greek word for "arose" is "eegertheesan" which means "[they] woke up." Based upon the tenses of the verbs, this happened at the time of Yeshua`s DEATH, not His resurrection. They came out of the tombs after His resurrection. Their resurrections were different than Yeshua`s. Their resurrections were more like that of Elezar (Lazarus). They had to die again. However, it is said of Yeshua`s Resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

His Resurrection was ONE OF A KIND up to this point! He rose never to die again! He rose, as the rest of 1 Cor. 15 says, "immortal and incorruptible!"

Elezar was considered human and could die again. In fact, the Jews conspired to kill him!

John 12:9-11 (KJV)

9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

Frankly, however, we are never told what became of those who awoke and came out of the tombs. Don't make assumptions about them that you cannot prove!

[Retrobyter]

On 2/16/2018 at 11:58 AM, eileenhat said:

Pictures worth a thousand words.

Look at how many people still believe earth is a planet in a globe shape even though the only pictures are all fake, of earth.  One programmer* already confessed his earth picture is entirely CGI.

Conspiracy 'news'.

I press for people to confess, to God their crimes against humanity for corrupting people into the false doctrines taught by USA cultural marxists, ie. evolution, tectonic plates, earthquake causes, age of earth, shape of earth, God's actual existence, satan's existence, existence of witches, existence of NWO, no 'space' exist, no 'planets' exist, existence of firmament proven by NSA etc.

*quote:"My role is to make imagery from Earth sciences data."

source: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/about/people/RSimmon.html

Shalom, eileenhat.

The reason why "people still believe earth is a planet in a globe shape" is because of the angles to the sun on a daily basis. Also, our world is shrinking and communications give us the ability to communicate with people around the world instantly (or nearly so). The time zones that have been established show the angles to the sun at varying times throughout the day (and night). If we really lived on a flat earth, then it would be possible for people in China to see the sun which is above us during the day, and vice versa!

[Joulre2abba]

Engaging in flat earth discussion is off topic of the thread. It has nothing to do with people going to heaven when they die.

The apostle Paul in particular taught the churches of going to heaven at the time of death, and at the time of the rapture. I'm sure that he could have overloaded his epistles with the extensive information that the OP has used.. but he didn't. Which means that he wasn't relying on academics but upon the revelations of the mysteries that God had showed him.

[DJ7]

If the "first heaven" is the sky, that is, "of clouds" "which we can look up and see with our eyes," and
the "second heaven" (Greek: epouranios = "above the sky") is not "limited to outer space,"
then how can the "second heaven" be "of stars" and not also be "God's abode?"

We call it a "universe" because it is not limited by dimensions, and "as far as we can see," we STILLfind more stars and GALAXIES of stars! Some believe that the universe is finite, but others still imagine that it is a TRUE universe because, to date, the limit of the distances has never been found! It's only the Big Bang proposition that suggests a limit to the size of the universe.

If that's true, then where does that put your "third heaven = God's abode?" In another dimension of reality? And, if the New Jerusalem comes down from God out of "heaven," then how far would that city have to come? Or, how could it make the trip from another dimension of reality? Could it make it 

On 2/15/2018 at 4:57 PM, Retrobyter said:

If the "first heaven" is the sky, that is, "of clouds" "which we can look up and see with our eyes," and
the "second heaven" (Greek: epouranios = "above the sky") is not "limited to outer space,"
then how can the "second heaven" be "of stars" and not also be "God's abode?"

We call it a "universe" because it is not limited by dimensions, and "as far as we can see," we STILL find more stars and GALAXIES of stars! Some believe that the universe is finite, but others still imagine that it is a TRUE universe because, to date, the limit of the distances has never been found! It's only the Big Bang proposition that suggests a limit to the size of the universe.

If that's true, then where does that put your "third heaven = God's abode?" In another dimension of reality? And, if the New Jerusalem comes down from God out of "heaven," then how far would that city have to come? Or, how could it make the trip from another dimension of reality? Could it make it here in an acceptable amount of time? Can you see how complicated this becomes?

The universe exists in heaven. The heavenlies are outside our physical universe, which is the third heaven.

Heaven existed before the universe so it's logical that the universe exists in the realm of God's abode. 

[Retrobyter]

On 3/25/2018 at 11:55 AM, Joulre2abba said:

Engaging in flat earth discussion is off topic of the thread. It has nothing to do with people going to heaven when they die.

The apostle Paul in particular taught the churches of going to heaven at the time of death, and at the time of the rapture. I'm sure that he could have overloaded his epistles with the extensive information that the OP has used.. but he didn't. Which means that he wasn't relying on academics but upon the revelations of the mysteries that God had showed him.

Shalom, Joulre2abba.

Yes, you're right in your first statement, but on the other hand, I have the right to pursue tangential topics since I started the thread. 

The concept of a flat earth has some bearing on this topic, though, because of the Mediaeval concept of "hell is down" and "heaven is up." You can see it in the two-dimensional art of the Middle Ages. However, when the earth's surface is considered to be CURVED into a very large sphere, then "down" everywhere on the surface of that sphere points to the center of that sphere. This allows some Christians to surmise that "Hell" IS the center of that sphere, which they identify as the "heart (core) of the earth!" (Matthew 12:40.)

"Up," on the other hand, points OUTWARD from the surface of the earth in all directions! This changes the concept of the "three heavens" (as is commonly accepted), the "first heaven of clouds" is the earth's atmosphere, that hollow sphere of gases that extend upward from the surface of the earth outward until it thins to a very rarified state, at which point the "second heaven" begins. That is "outer space," the "second heaven of stars." The problem then arises: Where does the "second heaven of stars" end and the "third heaven = God's abode" begin?! This has led to the idea that the "third heaven = God's abode" "MUST be in another dimension, existing side by side with the 'second heaven of stars.'" Why is this considered? It's because, when people die, they are thought to INSTANTLY step into "eternity" - into the "third heaven = God's abode." The only way this could be possible is to step into another dimension of reality - the "spiritual realm" - OR to travel great distances at the "speed of thought." Both of these, however, are HIGHLY SPECULATIVE to the point of FICTION!

And, this concept has led to other problematic interpretations of Scripture. For instance, the concept of the Resurrection has changed in modern theology. Now, the Resurrection is thought to be a graduation from the physical realm to the spiritual realm individually, substituting physical bodies with spiritual bodies, and the English translations of 1 Corinthians 15 that we have do NOT help! They SEEM to support this conclusion, even though the Greek does not. Originally, the Resurrection was just that: a GENERAL RESURRECTION of our dead bodies at the Second Coming! Our bodies coming BACK TO LIFE! By way of Greek and the comparisons used in 1 Corinthians 15, the "spiritual" body is a SUPERSTRONG, PHYSICAL body, NOT an "other worldly" body! Now, there are some songs that take this concept of "resurrection" to be a FIGURATIVE TWIST of a REJUVENATION of our current bodies at best, or not about our "bodies" at all, but a REJUVENATION of our minds, our attitudes, or our "spirits!"

However, Paul NEVER "taught the churches of going to heaven at the time of death," NOR "at the time of the rapture!" That is merely an interpretation of the Scriptures based on a pre-conceived notion from the eschatological, theological position to which a person adheres.

STICK TO WHAT PAUL (AND YESHUA`) SAID, AS REVEALED IN THE GREEK! And, LEARN to gain information FROM the Scriptures (EXEGESIS); DON'T read INTO the Scriptures what you expect to find (EISEGESIS)! Let the BODY of Scriptures teach YOU; don't fabricate what you want to believe (or what you're taught to believe) FROM certain Scripture verses or short passages.

For instance, take...

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 

Notice: Yeshua` did NOT say that He was taking us to that place He had prepared for us! What He said was that He would come again and receive us to Himself! However, at that point, He will no longer BE in that place He had prepared for us! He will be HERE! And, His words of comfort were "that where I am, there ye may be also." I.e., we will no longer be separated from Him. Therefore, He is NOT saying that "we will go to heaven." Indeed, Yochanan (John) says it in reverse:

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (Greek: ouranon kainon = "a new sky") and a new earth: for the first heaven (Greek: prootos ouranos = "[the] first sky") and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Therefore, that which most people call "Heaven," the New Jerusalem, will come HERE to a renovated earth, instead!

Another instance is found in Paul's words of...

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (Greek: houtoos kai ho Theos, tous koimeethentas dia tou Ieesou, = "so also the God, those having-fallen-asleep through the Yeshua`,") will God bring with him (Greek: axei sun autoo = "will-bring with Him"). 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (Greek: autos ho Kurios en keleusmati, en foonee archaggelou kai en salpiggi Theou, katabeesetai ap' ouranou = "Himself the Lord in a-loud-command, in a-voice of-[the]-chief-messenger and in trumpeting of-God, shall-descend away-from [the]-sky"): and the dead in Christ shall rise first (Greek: kai hoi nekroi en Christoo anasteesontai prooton, = "and the dead-ones in [the]-Messiah shall-stand-up first,"): 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (Greek: epeita heemeis hoi zoontes hoi perileipomenoi, hama sun autois, harpageesometha en nefelais eis apanteesin tou Kuriou eis aera = then we the living-ones the remaining-ones, together with them, shall-be-snatched-away in clouds into a-meeting with-the Lord into [the]-air"): and so shall we ever be with the Lord (Greek: kai houtoos pantate sun Kurioo esometha = "and like-that always with [the]-Lord we-shall-be").

Hope this hasn't confused you too much, but it, too, doesn't say that we "go to heaven." Instead, it says we go "THROUGH the heavens" or "THROUGH the skies" "in clouds" "in the air!" To arrive WITH Him in Israel when He is seen "in the clouds of the sky!"

[Joulre2abba]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Joulre2abba.

Yes, you're right in your first statement, but on the other hand, I have the right to pursue tangential topics since I started the thread. 

The concept of a flat earth has some bearing on this topic, though, because of the Mediaeval concept of "hell is down" and "heaven is up."

It's not just a mediaeval concept. It's the reality of living on a spherical planet. Every direction is always up and down. There is a heaven in all directions up above us. And there is a confined hell below us.

You can see it in the two-dimensional art of the Middle Ages.

Of course it's two dimensional after all the medium of the art is a treated cloth stretched on a flat board.

However, when the earth's surface is considered to be CURVED into a very large sphere, then "down" everywhere on the surface of that sphere points to the center of that sphere. This allows some Christians to surmise that "Hell" IS the center of that sphere, which they identify as the "heart (core) of the earth!" (Matthew 12:40.)

Are you then saying that the Bible, which is the inspired word of God revealed to man, surmises it?

"Up," on the other hand, points OUTWARD from the surface of the earth in all directions!

As I earlier said.

This changes the concept of the "three heavens" (as is commonly accepted), the "first heaven of clouds" is the earth's atmosphere, that hollow sphere of gases that extend upward from the surface of the earth outward until it thins to a very rarified state, at which point the "second heaven" begins. That is "outer space," the "second heaven of stars."

There's no changed concept. 1. the breathable air. 2. the moon, and sun, the stars and planets, comets and asteroids. 3. the heaven where God resides- beyond space and time.

The problem then arises: Where does the "second heaven of stars" end and the "third heaven = God's abode" begin?!

Who has been there and returned to tell us? When Jesus had gone to heaven then returned to meet with the disciples he didn't talk about that but about his body being tangible yet he had walked through a closed door. When seeing that.. who cares about where the second heaven ends and the third heaven begins!

This has led to the idea that the "third heaven = God's abode" "MUST be in another dimension, existing side by side with the 'second heaven of stars.'" Why is this considered? It's because, when people die, they are thought to INSTANTLY step into "eternity" - into the "third heaven = God's abode."

When a person dies their spirit leaves their body and do instantly enter into the previously unseen realm which exists at the same time as all of the physical realm.

The only way this could be possible is to step into another dimension of reality - the "spiritual realm" - OR to travel great distances at the "speed of thought." Both of these, however, are HIGHLY SPECULATIVE to the point of FICTION!

Oh, so you've died and returned to tell us the way that it really is. That is just my way of saying that your perspective is departing from the Bible and preferring to be highly speculative and close to fiction.

And, this concept has led to other problematic interpretations of Scripture. For instance, the concept of the Resurrection has changed in modern theology. Now, the Resurrection is thought to be a graduation from the physical realm to the spiritual realm individually, substituting physical bodies with spiritual bodies,

That is exactly what happens. The disciples saw the ghostly figures of Elijah and Moses. And the apostle Paul wrote of the spirit man leaving the physical body at death, and the apostle John witnessed the spirits of just men made perfect in heaven. Why even think that it's anything else?

and the English translations of 1 Corinthians 15 that we have do NOT help! They SEEM to support this conclusion, even though the Greek does not.

How can it be that the Greek does not support the spiritual truths of the after life? No, it's more likely that you have accepted a lie from someone who doesn't believe that there is a spirit realm. 

Originally, the Resurrection was just that: a GENERAL RESURRECTION of our dead bodies at the Second Coming!

Originally the Jews only knew so much but it took a former Pharisee (the apostle Paul again) getting saved and receiving revelation from God to explain the matter so that all may know that it's more than just "a general resurrection".

Our bodies coming BACK TO LIFE! By way of Greek

Yes, that language accurately declares it.

and the comparisons used in 1 Corinthians 15, the "spiritual" body is a SUPERSTRONG, PHYSICAL body, NOT an "other worldly" body!

Well, that would mean then that I was right, someone who doesn't believe in spiritual things told you that there is no spiritual but only physical. That requires a twisting of the word of God and a lot of private interpretation.

Now, there are some songs that take this concept of "resurrection" to be a FIGURATIVE TWIST of a REJUVENATION of our current bodies at best, or not about our "bodies" at all, but a REJUVENATION of our minds, our attitudes, or our "spirits!"

Without more information the song thing will have to be discarded as any hope of viable evidence.

However, Paul NEVER "taught the churches of going to heaven at the time of death," NOR "at the time of the rapture!"

It's unfortunate that you can read the verses then decide that Paul NEVER did. I'm going to be blunt here and just tell you that you are practicing self deception and deceit because you reject the truth.

That is merely an interpretation of the Scriptures based on a pre-conceived notion from the eschatological, theological position to which a person adheres.

That is exactly what you would have to be doing as evidenced by you saying that Paul never taught of believers going to heaven at death, nor at the rapture.

STICK TO WHAT PAUL (AND YESHUA`) SAID, AS REVEALED IN THE GREEK!

Whoa, just a few lines above you said that the Greek did a lousy job at supporting the concept of the spirit realm. Yet now you strongly endorse the Greek. Such a quick shift from being so self deceived to being a reliable witness is surprising.

And, LEARN to gain information FROM the Scriptures (EXEGESIS); DON'T read INTO the Scriptures what you expect to find (EISEGESIS)!

You should take your own medicine.

Let the BODY of Scriptures teach YOU; don't fabricate what you want to believe (or what you're taught to believe) FROM certain Scripture verses or short passages.

Indeed, you just told me not to listen to you.

For instance, take...

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 

Notice: Yeshua` did NOT say that He was taking us to that place He had prepared for us!

Sorry, but he did.

What He said was that He would come again and receive us to Himself!

That is only part of it, when / after he receives us, he takes us to that prepared place that we will be with him where he is. Otherwise it seems pretty pointless, wasteful and silly if he tells us that he prepares a place for us but doesn't take us there.

However, at that point, He will no longer BE in that place He had prepared for us! He will be HERE!

He did say, "that where I am, you may be with me also" so no matter where he goes, we go too. Be it that place in heaven, or a place here on earth.

And, His words of comfort were "that where I am, there ye may be also." I.e., we will no longer be separated from Him. Therefore, He is NOT saying that "we will go to heaven."

There cannot be the whole truth if you only pay attention to half of it.

Indeed, Yochanan (John) says it in reverse:

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (Greek: ouranon kainon = "a new sky") and a new earth: for the first heaven (Greek: prootos ouranos = "[the] first sky") and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Therefore, that which most people call "Heaven," the New Jerusalem, will come HERE to a renovated earth, instead!

Yes, I don't dispute that, however- The Rev chapter number gives a clue as to the passage of time between the previous chapters and chap 21. Which means that you are ignoring all of them which give you great details on the events of the 7 year Tribulation, the Second Coming of Christ, the Millennium.

John 14:1-3 happened first.. then much later came Rev.21:1-4 which means that the first mentioned is followed by the latter. They in no way conflict with each other.

Another instance is found in Paul's words of...

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (Greek: houtoos kai ho Theos, tous koimeethentas dia tou Ieesou, = "so also the God, those having-fallen-asleep through the Yeshua`,") will God bring with him (Greek: axei sun autoo = "will-bring with Him"). 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (Greek: autos ho Kurios en keleusmati, en foonee archaggelou kai en salpiggi Theou, katabeesetai ap' ouranou = "Himself the Lord in a-loud-command, in a-voice of-[the]-chief-messenger and in trumpeting of-God, shall-descend away-from [the]-sky"): and the dead in Christ shall rise first (Greek: kai hoi nekroi en Christoo anasteesontai prooton, = "and the dead-ones in [the]-Messiah shall-stand-up first,"): 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (Greek: epeita heemeis hoi zoontes hoi perileipomenoi, hama sun autois, harpageesometha en nefelais eis apanteesin tou Kuriou eis aera = then we the living-ones the remaining-ones, together with them, shall-be-snatched-away in clouds into a-meeting with-the Lord into [the]-air"): and so shall we ever be with the Lord (Greek: kai houtoos pantate sun Kurioo esometha = "and like-that always with [the]-Lord we-shall-be").

That lines up with John 14:1-3.

Hope this hasn't confused you too much, but it, too, doesn't say that we "go to heaven."

Yes it does. That we shall be with the Lord indicates that he and us do not "hang around" in the air for any length of time, but that we go to that place in heaven that he has prepared for us. For he sits at the right hand of God in heaven. And we will be there with him. While there we go to the Bema Seat judgments, then there is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Instead, it says we go "THROUGH the heavens" or "THROUGH the skies" "in clouds" "in the air!" To arrive WITH Him in Israel when He is seen "in the clouds of the sky!"

Yes, we as the Bride of Christ go through the air, through the sky in order to get to heaven that is well beyond the earth and the solar system. But you have ignored so many aspects that will give a well rounded perspective. And your sharing with others will reflect the whole truth and nothing but the whole truth.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

One of the tell-tale signs of a false teacher is that they will always attempt to diminish your hope of Heaven.   Anyone who claims we do not go to Heaven when we die is not getting their teachings from a sound, mature interpretation of Scripture, but from the enemy.   Satan's goal is to destroy hope and he has many earthly agents to help him in that regard.

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

One of the tell-tale signs of a false teacher is that they will always attempt to diminish your hope of Heaven.   Anyone who claims we do not go to Heaven when we die is not getting their teachings from a sound, mature interpretation of Scripture, but from the enemy.   Satan's goal is to destroy hope and he has many earthly agents to help him in that regard.

Shabbat shalom, shiloh357, and chag sameeach (happy holiday)! Pesach sameeach (happy Passover)!

LOL! Our "hope" is NOT to be IN "going to Heaven!"

Titus 2:1-15 (KJV)

1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: 2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. 7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, 8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again (not back-talking); 10 Not purloining (stealing), but shewing all good fidelity (good faithfulness); that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

The Greek of verse 13 says,

13 prosdechomenoi teen makarian elpida kai epiphaneian tees doxees tou megalou Theou kai Sooteeros heemoon Christou Ieesou,

First, this verse is talking about TWO Persons, not ONE!

epiphaneian tees doxees
1) tou megalou Theou
KAI
2) Sooteeros heemoon Christou Ieesou

Almost ALL of the English versions make the mistake of thinking they are one Person. The case against this view is found several times in the book of Acts: Simply look up occurrences of the words "his Christ." A case in point is found in what Peter said...

Acts 3:17-20 (HCSB)

17 “And now, brothers, I know that you did it in ignorance, just as your leaders also did. 18 But what God predicted through the mouth of all the prophets — that His Messiah would suffer — He has fulfilled in this way. 19 Therefore repent and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped out, that seasons of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus, who has been appointed for you as the Messiah.

Second, these are NOT two separate occurrences:

Some have claimed that there are two occurrences mentioned here:
1) the blessed hope, and
2) the glorious appearing of the Great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

But, that's not what this verse means. The Blessed Hope IS "the glorious appearing of the Great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

In any case, our HOPE is to be in the Messiah's RETURN!

[Guest shiloh357]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, shiloh357, and chag sameeach (happy holiday)! Pesach sameeach (happy Passover)!

LOL! Our "hope" is NOT to be IN "going to Heaven!"

 

I said hope OF Heaven, not hope in Heaven.  One hope of the Christian based on the promises of God is that we will go to Heaven when we die.   It is false teachers who claim that believers have no such hope.