No one ever goes to Heaven in NT times either!

Retrobyter · April 1, 2018

11 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I said hope OF Heaven, not hope in Heaven. One hope of the Christian based on the promises of God is that we will go to Heaven when we die. It is false teachers who claim that believers have no such hope.

Shabbat gadol shalom, shiloh357.

LOL! Only in YOUR mind, bro', and you should be careful labeling someone a "false teacher." Whether it's the "hope of Heaven" or "hope in Heaven" makes no difference if the truth is: THERE IS NO "HEAVEN!"

And, to assuage your fears, I believe STRONGLY in a New Earth with its New "heaven" (or New Sky), with its capital city, the New Jerusalem. THAT'S to what we have such assurance! And, while that is still over a thousand years away, the Messiah's Return will begin His Reign in the current Jerusalem, which is HIS RIGHT! And, His Reign is MUCH sooner!

April 1, 2018

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat gadol shalom, shiloh357.

LOL! Only in YOUR mind, bro', and you should be careful labeling someone a "false teacher." Whether it's the "hope of Heaven" or "hope in Heaven" makes no difference if the truth is: THERE IS NO "HEAVEN!"

Oh so now there is no Heaven? Yeah, that pretty much tells us that you are a false teacher. There may be no Heaven for you, but there is a Heaven for the rest us of who have trusted Jesus for salvation.

Quote

And, to assuage your fears, I believe STRONGLY in a New Earth with its New "heaven" (or New Sky), with its capital city, the New Jerusalem. THAT'S to what we have such assurance! And, while that is still over a thousand years away, the Messiah's Return will begin His Reign in the current Jerusalem, which is HIS RIGHT! And, His Reign is MUCH sooner!

That is just nonsense and no TRUE Christian/believer should accept that demonic claptrap. Whatever it is you believe, it is not the authentic New Testament faith. You have a false gospel and what you teach is anathema (cursed of God).

Retrobyter · April 1, 2018

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Oh so now there is no Heaven? Yeah, that pretty much tells us that you are a false teacher. There may be no Heaven for you, but there is a Heaven for the rest us of who have trusted Jesus for salvation.

That is just nonsense and no TRUE Christian/believer should accept that demonic claptrap. Whatever it is you believe, it is not the authentic New Testament faith. You have a false gospel and what you teach is anathema (cursed of God).

Ahem... Aren't you "attacking the person instead of attacking the problem?" Isn't that the very DEFINITION of an "ad hominem fallacy?" You can stand on your "soap box" and declare the REAL nonsense (that is, that there IS a "Heaven" and that people go there when they die) as though it was the "Gospel truth" (when there's actually NO Scriptural evidence to support it), but it's not okay for me to bring up the truth that there IS no Scriptural evidence for a PLACE called "Heaven?!" Talk about the "pot calling the kettle 'black!'"

April 1, 2018

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Ahem... Aren't you "attacking the person instead of attacking the problem?" Isn't that the very DEFINITION of an "ad hominem fallacy?" You can stand on your "soap box" and declare the REAL nonsense (that is, that there IS a "Heaven" and that people go there when they die) as though it was the "Gospel truth" (when there's actually NO Scriptural evidence to support it), but it's not okay for me to bring up the truth that there IS no Scriptural evidence for a PLACE called "Heaven?!" Talk about the "pot calling the kettle 'black!'"

The Bible calls Heaven a real place.

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Act 1:11)

There are rewards in Heaven: "Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets." Luke 6:23

The Father is in Heaven, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt. 5:16

So Heaven is a real place and I will just believe the Bible and reject your unchristian, unMessianic, unbiblical claptrap.

Edited April 1, 2018 by shiloh357

Retrobyter · April 5, 2018

On 3/30/2018 at 3:52 AM, Joulre2abba said:

(Nothing directly quoted; all inserted among a quote of what I said.)

Shalom, Joulre2abba.

Now, I've taken the time and effort to split up what you said from what I said. A change of color is insufficient in order to hold a conversation. Please use the "[+] Quote" button at the bottom of a post to respond. You can press ENTER a few times where you wish to break up a quote to insert what you want to say.

Quote

Quote

Shalom, Joulre2abba.

Yes, you're right in your first statement, but on the other hand, I have the right to pursue tangential topics since I started the thread.

The concept of a flat earth has some bearing on this topic, though, because of the Mediaeval concept of "hell is down" and "heaven is up."

It's not just a mediaeval concept. It's the reality of living on a spherical planet. Every direction is always up and down. There is a heaven in all directions up above us. And there is a confined hell below us.

Don't "get the cart before the horse." I'm first talking about the MEDIAEVAL period. Their two-dimensional thinking, coupled with the concept of a flat earth, gave a three-tiered concept, such that the three tiers were basically the SAME SIZE.

Quote

Quote

You can see it in the two-dimensional art of the Middle Ages.

Of course it's two dimensional after all the medium of the art is a treated cloth stretched on a flat board.

Please try to refrain from stating the obvious. Again, I was talking about the MEDIAEVAL period! So, my point was that you can see the three-tiered concept in their artwork, how that "heaven" is pictured in the upper third of the canvas, "earth" is pictured in the middle third, and "hell" is pictured in the lower third of the canvas!

Quote

Quote

However, when the earth's surface is considered to be CURVED into a very large sphere, then "down" everywhere on the surface of that sphere points to the center of that sphere. This allows some Christians to surmise that "Hell" IS the center of that sphere, which they identify as the "heart (core) of the earth!" (Matthew 12:40.)

Are you then saying that the Bible, which is the inspired word of God revealed to man, surmises it?

No, what I am saying is that modern Christians don't quite have a good handle on the matter, either.

Quote

Quote

"Up," on the other hand, points OUTWARD from the surface of the earth in all directions!

As I earlier said.

Again, please refrain from commenting on every little statement. It makes your answer redundant.

Quote

Quote

This changes the concept of the "three heavens" (as is commonly accepted), the "first heaven of clouds" is the earth's atmosphere, that hollow sphere of gases that extend upward from the surface of the earth outward until it thins to a very rarified state, at which point the "second heaven" begins. That is "outer space," the "second heaven of stars."

There's no changed concept. 1. the breathable air. 2. the moon, and sun, the stars and planets, comets and asteroids. 3. the heaven where God resides- beyond space and time.

No, you misunderstood the "change." We change from three equal tiers of hell, earth, and heaven to unequal SPHERES of hell, earth, and heaven. Consequently, the three IMAGINED "heavens" as you say, "1 the breathable air, 2 the moon, and sun, the stars and planets, comets and asteroids, 3. the heaven where God resides - beyond space and time," CHANGED in form to three SPHERES of heavens!

Take a sheet of paper and draw a border on one long side of the paper of 1/2 inch wide. Then, draw on that paper, parallel to the border drawn three lines that separate the rest of the sheet into equal thirds. Now, cut the sheet evenly with straight cuts about 1/2 inch apart perpendicular to these lines from one side of the paper to the side with the border, but do not cut through the border itself.

Fold the border of the paper at 90^o to the surface of the paper, and curl the paper up so that the border becomes a short tube. It will spread out the sections of paper into the facsimile of drawn CIRCLES equally spaced apart. THAT'S what I'm talking about when I said, "change."

Quote

Quote

The problem then arises: Where does the "second heaven of stars" end and the "third heaven = God's abode" begin?!

Who has been there and returned to tell us? When Jesus had gone to heaven then returned to meet with the disciples he didn't talk about that but about his body being tangible yet he had walked through a closed door. When seeing that.. who cares about where the second heaven ends and the third heaven begins!

But, don't you see? That's PRECISELY to what I am referring! NO ONE "has been there and returned to tell us!" That's what Yeshua` said!

John 3:9-15 (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, "How can these things be?"

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Art thou a master (teacher) of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Furthermore, the Scriptures don't say that He "walked through a closed door"; they say He "came ... and stood in the midst," "the doors being shut."

John 20:19 (KJV)

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

And,

John 20:26 (KJV)

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

How and when He got there is not disclosed! BE ZACT (exact) when quoting Scripture!

Quote

Quote

This has led to the idea that the "third heaven = God's abode" "MUST be in another dimension, existing side by side with the 'second heaven of stars.'" Why is this considered? It's because, when people die, they are thought to INSTANTLY step into "eternity" - into the "third heaven = God's abode."

When a person dies their spirit leaves their body and do instantly enter into the previously unseen realm which exists at the same time as all of the physical realm.

This can ONLY be true if "a person IS a spirit (soul) who HAS a body." That may sound right because that's how we often are taught to talk and how theology is worded, but the Scriptures say that "a person IS a body that breathes air (a soul), and the air he breathes is his breath (spirit); so, he HAS a breath (a spirit)." (Genesis 2:7.)

However, what you're really telling me is that you buy into this "other dimension of reality" theory that I next mention:

Quote

Quote

The only way this could be possible is to step into another dimension of reality - the "spiritual realm" - OR to travel great distances at the "speed of thought." Both of these, however, are HIGHLY SPECULATIVE to the point of FICTION!

Oh, so you've died and returned to tell us the way that it really is. That is just my way of saying that your perspective is departing from the Bible and preferring to be highly speculative and close to fiction.

No, but then, neither have YOU! I'm not "departing from the Bible"; I'm departing from the generally accepted THEOLOGICAL THEORIES!

Quote

Quote

And, this concept has led to other problematic interpretations of Scripture. For instance, the concept of the Resurrection has changed in modern theology. Now, the Resurrection is thought to be a graduation from the physical realm to the spiritual realm individually, substituting physical bodies with spiritual bodies,

That is exactly what happens. The disciples saw the ghostly figures of Elijah and Moses. And the apostle Paul wrote of the spirit man leaving the physical body at death, and the apostle John witnessed the spirits of just men made perfect in heaven. Why even think that it's anything else?

Actually, it's not. Your "ghostly figures" are in your imagination. They didn't see "ghostly figures"; they SAW Eliyahuw and Mosheh IN THE FLESH! Why do you think Peter was asking if they should put up tents for them?

Matthew 17:1-13 (KJV)

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Mark 9:1-13 (KJV)

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. 11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? 12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. 13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Luke 9:27-36 (KJV)

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. 33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. 34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

BUT, it was a VISION of the FUTURE, NOT reality ... YET!

Quote

Quote

and the English translations of 1 Corinthians 15 that we have do NOT help! They SEEM to support this conclusion, even though the Greek does not.

How can it be that the Greek does not support the spiritual truths of the after life? No, it's more likely that you have accepted a lie from someone who doesn't believe that there is a spirit realm.

AHHH!!! It's because they DO support the PHYSICAL truths of the afterlife!

And, people have gone ga-ga with this crazy word "spiritual!" Because people don't understand the word "spirit" correctly, they consequently CAN'T understand the word "spiritual." They believe the word means "non-physical"; but, that is FAR from the truth.

My favorite chapter is the "RESURRECTION" chapter, 1 Corinthians 15! The first thing you need to understand here is that "spiritual" doesn't mean what YOU think of when you say "spiritual," and the word "spirit-ual" is contrasted with "soul-ual" (translated "natural"). The first thing you need to do is look up all these words in the Greek and understand the nuances of those definitions.

First, here is the Greek of this passage (Remember: I use "oo" for omega and "o" for omicron; "ee" for eta and "e" for epsilon):

Pros Korinthious A 15:35-54 (UBS Greek New Testament)

35 All' erei tis, "Poos egeirontai hoi nekroi? Poioo de soomati erchontai?"
36 Afroon, su ho speireis ou zoo-opoieitai ean mee apothanee; 
37 kai ho speireis, ou to sooma to geneesomenon speireis, alla gumnon kokkon, ei tuchoi, sitou ee tinos toon loipoon;  
38 ho de Theos didoosin autoo sooma kathoos eetheleesen, kai hekastoo toon spermatoon idion sooma. 
39 Ou pasa sarx hee autee sarx: alla  allee men sarx anthroopoon,  allee de sarx kteenoon,  allee de sarx pteenoon,  allee de ichthuoon. 
40 Kai soomata epourania,  kai soomata epigeia;  all' hetera men hee toon epouranioon doxa,  hetera de hee toon epigeioon. 
41 Allee doxa heeliou,  kai allee doxa seleenees,  kai allee doxa asteroon; asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee.
 42 Houtoos kai hee anastasis toon nekroon.  Speiretai en fthora, egeiretai en aftharsia; 
43 Speiretai en atimia, egeiretai en doxee;  Speiretai en astheneia, egeiretai en dunamei; 
44 Speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon.  Ei estin sooma psuchikon, estin kai pneumatikon. 
45 Houtoos kai gegraptai, "Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan,"
 ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.
 46 All' ou prooton to pneumatikon, alla to psuchikon,  epeita to pneumatikon. 
47 Ho prootos anthroopos ek gees, choikos;  ho deuteros anthroopos [ho kurios] ex ouranou.
 48 Hoios ho choikos, toioutoi kai hoi choikoi,  kai hoios ho epouranios, toiouotoi kai hoi epouranioi; 
49 kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou,  foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou. 
50 Touto de feemi, adelfoi, hoti sarx kai haima basileian Theou kleeronomeesai ou dunatai, oude hee fthora teen aftharsian kleeronomei. 
51 Idou musteerion humin legoo:  Pantes ou koimeetheesometha,  pantes de allageesometha, 
52 en atomoo, en ripee ofthalmou, en tee eschatee salpiggi; salpisei gar, kai hoi nekroi egertheesontai afthartoi, kai heemeis allageesometha. 
53 Dei gar to ftharton touto endusasthai aftharsian, kai to thneeton touto endusasthai athanasian. 
54 Hotan de to ftharton touto enduseetai aftharsian kai to thneeton touto enduseetai athanasian, tote geneesetai ho logos ho gegrammenos, "Katepothee ho thanatos eis nikos."

Second, this chapter is a study on contrasts. Here are the contrasting terms:

zoo-opoieitai/apothanee = it-is-quickened or it-is-brought-back-to-life/it-dies
sarx anthroopoon/sarx kteenoon/sarx pteenoon/ [sarx] ichthuoon = flesh of-men/flesh of-beasts/flesh of-birds/[flesh] of-fish
soomata epourania/soomata epigeia = a-body from-above-the-sky/a-body from-above-the-ground
toon epouranioon/toon epigeioon = the [ones] from-above-the-sky/the [ones] from-above-the-ground
doxa heeliou/doxa seleenees/doxa asteroon = brightness of-sun/brightness of-moon/brightness of-stars
soomata epourania/soomata epigeia = a-body from-above-the-sky/a-body from-above-the-ground
fthora/aftharsia = corrupton/incorruption
atimia/doxee = dishonor or infamy/fame or brightness or apparency or being-very-apparent
astheneia/dunamei = weakness/power
sooma psuchikon/sooma pneumatikon = a-body soul-ual/a-body spirit-ual
ho prootos anthroopos Adam/ho eschatos [anthroopos] Adam = the first man Adam/the last [man] Adam
psucheen zoosan/pneuma zoo-opoioun = a living air-breather/a life-giving wind
to psuchikon/to pneumatikon = the soul-ual (translated "natural")/the spiritual
Ho prootos anthroopos/ho deuteros anthroopos = The First man/the second man
ek gees/ex ouranou = out-of or from [the] ground/out-of or from [the] sky
ho choikos/ho epouranios = the dirt-like-one/the [one]-from-above-the-sky
hoi choikoi/hoi epouranioi = the dirt-like-ones/the [ones]-from-above-the-sky
teen eikona tou choikou/teen eikona tou epouraniou = the likeness of-the dirt-like-[one]/the likeness of-the [one]-from-above-the-sky
sarx kai haima/basileian Theou = flesh and blood/kingdom of-God
hee fthora/teen aftharsian = the corruptible or the decaying/the incorruptible
koimeetheesometha/allageesometha = we-shall-fall-asleep/we-shall-be-changed
to ftharton/aftharsian = the corruptible/incorruption
to thneeton/athanasian = the mortal/immortality
ho thanatos/nikos = the death/victory

Proximity enters into these comparisons. Which comparisons are grouped with other comparisons? Notice that the (2) "sooma psuchikon/sooma pneumatikon" comparison immediately follows the (1) "astheneia/dunamei" comparison and is immediately followed by the (3) "ho prootos anthroopos Adam/ho eschatos [anthroopos] Adam" and the (4) "psucheen zoosan/pneuma zoo-opoioun" comparisons! Comparisons (1), (3), and (4) are NOT "black/white" opposite comparisons! They are "positive/comparative/superlative" or "okay/better/best" degree comparisons! Therefore, the "sooma psuchikon/sooma pneumatikon" is also not a "black/white" comparison but an "okay/best" comparison!

When one realizes that "psuchikon" comes from "psuchee" and "pneumatikon" comes from "pneuma," it begins to make sense. "Psuchee," like its Hebrew translation, "nefesh," means an "air-breathing creature" (and "creature" itself meaning a "created being," not a "monster"). "Pneuma" means a "wind," like its Hebrew translation, "ruwach." The "-ikon" suffix makes an adjective out of each word Therefore, "psuchikon" doesn't just mean "natural"; it with the word "sooma" ("body") means an "air-breathing" body, and pneumatikon means

Quote

Quote

Originally, the Resurrection was just that: a GENERAL RESURRECTION of our dead bodies at the Second Coming!

Originally the Jews only knew so much but it took a former Pharisee (the apostle Paul again) getting saved and receiving revelation from God to explain the matter so that all may know that it's more than just "a general resurrection".

First, Paul was NEVER called a "former Pharisee." Indeed, he CLAIMED to be "a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee" long after his Damascus Road encounter.

Acts 23:6 (KJV)

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Philippians 3:2-6 (KJV)

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Acts 26:1-8 (KJV)

1 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:

2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews: 3 Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.

4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

He never denied being a Pharisee - a Paruwsh - a "Separatist"; he EMBRACED it! They accepted and believed in the resurrection! However, he took it to its logical conclusion: The possibility of resurrection was a SURE THING, and he also accepted that Yeshua` haMashiyach (Jesus the Christ) was so resurrected from the dead!

Second, Paul SUPPORTED a physical resurrection!

2 Timothy 2:15-19 (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord (Yeshua`) knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ (of the Messiah) depart from iniquity.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 (KJV)

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ (the Master, Yeshua` God's Messiah), who shall judge the quick (the living) and the dead at his appearing and (that of) his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist (Greek: euaggelistou = "a teller of good news," specifically about God's coming Kingdom), make full proof of thy ministry.

I wonder.... About whom was Paul warning Timothy?

Quote

Quote

Our bodies coming BACK TO LIFE! By way of Greek

Yes, that language accurately declares it.

Good.

Quote

Quote

and the comparisons used in 1 Corinthians 15, the "spiritual" body is a SUPERSTRONG, PHYSICAL body, NOT an "other worldly" body!

Well, that would mean then that I was right, someone who doesn't believe in spiritual things told you that there is no spiritual but only physical. That requires a twisting of the word of God and a lot of private interpretation.

(No one had to tell me, and I am neither "twisting the word of God," nor am I involved in "private interpretation." See the part about 1 Corinthians 15 above.)

Quote

Quote

Now, there are some songs that take this concept of "resurrection" to be a FIGURATIVE TWIST of a REJUVENATION of our current bodies at best, or not about our "bodies" at all, but a REJUVENATION of our minds, our attitudes, or our "spirits!"

Without more information the song thing will have to be discarded as any hope of viable evidence.

Good enough. I don't particularly like the song anyway.

Quote

Quote

However, Paul NEVER "taught the churches of going to heaven at the time of death," NOR "at the time of the rapture!"

It's unfortunate that you can read the verses then decide that Paul NEVER did. I'm going to be blunt here and just tell you that you are practicing self deception and deceit because you reject the truth.

Your proof is ...?

Quote

Quote

That is merely an interpretation of the Scriptures based on a pre-conceived notion from the eschatological, theological position to which a person adheres.

That is exactly what you would have to be doing as evidenced by you saying that Paul never taught of believers going to heaven at death, nor at the rapture.

I COULD quote ALL that Paul wrote as proof, but that would be counter productive. The better way would be for YOU to prove JUST ONE OCCURRENCE of Paul teaching that believers DO "go to heaven at death." By the way, I don't believe that they (or we) "go to heaven at the rapture," either! We go THROUGH the "heaven" - that is, THROUGH the "sky" - on our way to the Middle East so the Messiah can begin His reign after He rescues (delivers; SAVES) His people from their enemies.

Quote

Quote

STICK TO WHAT PAUL (AND YESHUA`) SAID, AS REVEALED IN THE GREEK!

Whoa, just a few lines above you said that the Greek did a lousy job at supporting the concept of the spirit realm. Yet now you strongly endorse the Greek. Such a quick shift from being so self deceived to being a reliable witness is surprising.

Silly, I will ALWAYS endorse the Greek over the English translations! What you apparently missed was that I said that the Greek doesn't SUPPORT the concept of the spirit realm! That's a modern, THEOLOGICAL supposition! It's not that "the Greek did a lousy job"; it's that the Greek does an EXCELLENT job at supporting the VERY REAL, FUTURE, LITERAL, PHYSICAL RESURRECTION!

Quote

Quote

And, LEARN to gain information FROM the Scriptures (EXEGESIS); DON'T read INTO the Scriptures what you expect to find (EISEGESIS)!

You should take your own medicine.

I do ... EVERY DAY! (Literally, too.)

Quote

Quote

Let the BODY of Scriptures teach YOU; don't fabricate what you want to believe (or what you're taught to believe) FROM certain Scripture verses or short passages.

Indeed, you just told me not to listen to you.

No, what I said was LISTEN TO the SCRIPTURES! Take a COMPLETE CONTEXT of Scripture, not just a few verses of your choice! Even above, you need to realize that 2 Timothy 2 and 4 are CONNECTED BY CONTEXT!

Quote

Quote

For instance, take...

John 14:1-3 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Notice: Yeshua` did NOT say that He was taking us to that place He had prepared for us!

Sorry, but he did.

No, you're making an ASSUMPTION that He did! Look again:

What He SAID was "I go to prepare a place for you (in my Father's house)."
Then, He said, "IF I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again...." This does NOT say that He will RETURN WITH US to that place!
Continuing on, He said, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself...." Again, He did NOT say that He would then take us with Him back to that place!
What He said was, "I will ... receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." BUT, He has just "come again!" So, now He turns around and goes back to that place?! No, that only makes sense to someone who desperately CLINGS to the "rapture to heaven" theory. The text of this passage doesn't even SUGGEST such a thing!

Quote

Quote

What He said was that He would come again and receive us to Himself!

That is only part of it, when / after he receives us, he takes us to that prepared place that we will be with him where he is. Otherwise it seems pretty pointless, wasteful and silly if he tells us that he prepares a place for us but doesn't take us there.

Again, that's the assumption made from the "rapture to heaven" theory. It is neither "pointless, wasteful OR silly." He simply told them what He would be doing while away. The COMFORT was to be found in the fact that He promised to RETURN and to GATHER THEM (IN RESURRECTION) TO HIMSELF! This is NOT a declaration of escapism; He's not taking us AWAY from the battle to hide; He's taking us INTO that battle WITH HIM!

Quote

Quote

However, at that point, He will no longer BE in that place He had prepared for us! He will be HERE!

He did say, "that where I am, you may be with me also" so no matter where he goes, we go too. Be it that place in heaven, or a place here on earth.

You're right, but at this point in time.... HE JUST GOT BACK TO EARTH!!! Why would He go BACKWARDS?! Yeshua` SAID when the Jews of Jerusalem would see Him again:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Greek: Eulogeemenos ho erchomenos en onomati Kuriou = Hebrew: Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH = "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHWH.")

They have to WELCOME Him back before He returns!

Quote

Quote

And, His words of comfort were "that where I am, there ye may be also." I.e., we will no longer be separated from Him. Therefore, He is NOT saying that "we will go to heaven."

There cannot be the whole truth if you only pay attention to half of it.

You mean the half that ISN'T THERE?

Quote

Quote

Indeed, Yochanan (John) says it in reverse:

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (Greek: ouranon kainon = "a new sky") and a new earth: for the first heaven (Greek: prootos ouranos = "[the] first sky") and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Therefore, that which most people call "Heaven," the New Jerusalem, will come HERE to a renovated earth, instead!

Yes, I don't dispute that, however- The Rev chapter number gives a clue as to the passage of time between the previous chapters and chap 21. Which means that you are ignoring all of them which give you great details on the events of the 7 year Tribulation, the Second Coming of Christ, the Millennium.

John 14:1-3 happened first.. then much later came Rev.21:1-4 which means that the first mentioned is followed by the latter. They in no way conflict with each other.

Not at all. I believe FULLY in a Tribulation (although we are already IN it and it is much LONGER than a mere 7 years), the Second Coming of the Messiah (Rev. 11-19), and the Millennium (Rev. 20). John 14:1-3 is about the Second Coming!

Quote

Quote

Another instance is found in Paul's words of...

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus (Greek: houtoos kai ho Theos, tous koimeethentas dia tou Ieesou, = "so also the God, those having-fallen-asleep through the Yeshua`,") will God bring with him (Greek: axei sun autoo = "will-bring with Him"). 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (Greek: autos ho Kurios en keleusmati, en foonee archaggelou kai en salpiggi Theou, katabeesetai ap' ouranou = "Himself the Lord in a-loud-command, in a-voice of-[the]-chief-messenger and in trumpeting of-God, shall-descend away-from [the]-sky"): and the dead in Christ shall rise first (Greek: kai hoi nekroi en Christoo anasteesontai prooton, = "and the dead-ones in [the]-Messiah shall-stand-up first,"): 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (Greek: epeita heemeis hoi zoontes hoi perileipomenoi, hama sun autois, harpageesometha en nefelais eis apanteesin tou Kuriou eis aera = then we the living-ones the remaining-ones, together with them, shall-be-snatched-away in clouds into a-meeting with-the Lord into [the]-air"): and so shall we ever be with the Lord (Greek: kai houtoos pantate sun Kurioo esometha = "and like-that always with [the]-Lord we-shall-be").

That lines up with John 14:1-3.

I agree, but it does NOT say where we go next!

Quote

Quote

Hope this hasn't confused you too much, but it, too, doesn't say that we "go to heaven."

Yes it does. That we shall be with the Lord indicates that he and us do not "hang around" in the air for any length of time, but that we go to that place in heaven that he has prepared for us. For he sits at the right hand of God in heaven. And we will be there with him. While there we go to the Bema Seat judgments, then there is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

We may not "hang around in the air for any length of time," but that does NOT mean that we "go to that place in heaven that He has prepared for us!" To the contrary, again, we are told that that place in the "above-the-sky" (Greek: epouraniou) comes HERE after the earth is rejuvenated, coming down from God and from the "sky" (Greek: ouranou)!

Quote

Quote

Instead, it says we go "THROUGH the heavens" or "THROUGH the skies" "in clouds" "in the air!" To arrive WITH Him in Israel when He is seen "in the clouds of the sky!"

Yes, we as the Bride of Christ go through the air, through the sky in order to get to heaven that is well beyond the earth and the solar system. But you have ignored so many aspects that will give a well rounded perspective. And your sharing with others will reflect the whole truth and nothing but the whole truth.

Back to the assumption again, eh? And, I hope my sharing with others does indeed reflect the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

HAZARD · April 5, 2018

No one ever goes to Heaven in NT times

Many believe that no man has ever gone to Heaven and quote John 3:13. This Scripture means that no man has gone to Heaven of their own accord. God has taken men to Heaven as these Scriptures clearly teach.

When Jesus rose from the dead and returned to Heaven he led all those in Paradise to Heaven and presented them to the Father.

Eph. 4:8, Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity2 captive, and gave gifts unto men.

John 3:13, And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Enoch . . . Gen. 5:24, 24, And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Heb. 11:5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Elijah . . . 2 Kings 2:11. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Paul . . . 2 Cor. 12:1-4. 1, It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2, I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3, And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
    4, How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

John . . . Rev. 4:1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Joulre2abba · April 5, 2018

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Joulre2abba.

Now, I've taken the time and effort to split up what you said from what I said. A change of color is insufficient in order to hold a conversation. Please use the "[+] Quote" button at the bottom of a post to respond. You can press ENTER a few times where you wish to break up a quote to insert what you want to say.

Since you sound so knowledgeable about how to use the quote device properly, I wonder that you didn't realize that the quote feature erased all of that fancy blockquoting that you spent so much time to make.

Therefore the use of a different color distinguishes your words from mine.

Don't "get the cart before the horse." I'm first talking about the MEDIAEVAL period.

Don't take this the wrong way but I am free to respond to your posts in whatever way I choose to.

Their two-dimensional thinking, coupled with the concept of a flat earth, gave a three-tiered concept, such that the three tiers were basically the SAME SIZE.

Your mention of this is not relevant.

Please try to refrain from stating the obvious.

Again, don't take this the wrong way but you are coming across as trying to control what I say and don't say, but that isn't appropriate when two people are having a discussion. If to you I'm stating the obvious then I suggest that you take it that it means that we are in agreement on that point so that it won't be necessary for you to be in a teacher mode as if I'm your student. Just consider that we are equals who are sharing different aspects of a view on things.

Again, I was talking about the MEDIAEVAL period! So, my point was that you can see the three-tiered concept in their artwork, how that "heaven" is pictured in the upper third of the canvas, "earth" is pictured in the middle third, and "hell" is pictured in the lower third of the canvas!

Well, I get to say this to you now. To me you are stating the obvious since I already indicated that I've seen such art.

No, what I am saying is that modern Christians don't quite have a good handle on the matter, either.

That is your opinion, which doesn't include all Christians. Your implications seem to suggest that you however know better than all Christians.

Again, please refrain from commenting on every little statement. It makes your answer redundant.

This is something to chuckle over because you have done the same thing that you accuse me of doing. Again, don't try to control my responses.

No, you misunderstood the "change." We change from three equal tiers of hell, earth, and heaven to unequal SPHERES of hell, earth, and heaven. Consequently, the three IMAGINED "heavens" as you say, "1 the breathable air, 2 the moon, and sun, the stars and planets, comets and asteroids, 3. the heaven where God resides - beyond space and time," CHANGED in form to three SPHERES of heavens!

You are the one who has been using the word "tiers" not me. I am not the one who thinks that the earth is flat. I had indicated that the spherical earth is difficult for those in the medieval world to comprehend.

Take a sheet of paper and draw a border on one long side of the paper of 1/2 inch wide. Then, draw on that paper, parallel to the border drawn three lines that separate the rest of the sheet into equal thirds. Now, cut the sheet evenly with straight cuts about 1/2 inch apart perpendicular to these lines from one side of the paper to the side with the border, but do not cut through the border itself.

Fold the border of the paper at 90^o to the surface of the paper, and curl the paper up so that the border becomes a short tube. It will spread out the sections of paper into the facsimile of drawn CIRCLES equally spaced apart. THAT'S what I'm talking about when I said, "change."

The tubes would still indicate "tiers" not "spheres". The better way to indicate a sphere is to use an orange and cut through the skin to indicate the sections.

Your version with the paper tubes don't do a good job in helping me to understand your point about "change", so perhaps if you used an orange?

But, don't you see? That's PRECISELY to what I am referring! NO ONE "has been there and returned to tell us!" That's what Yeshua` said!

There is a place where is useable the consideration that we are in agreement, therefore I do see, and therefore that response from you is superfluous.

John 3:9-15 (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, "How can these things be?"

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Art thou a master (teacher) of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Furthermore, the Scriptures don't say that He "walked through a closed door"; they say He "came ... and stood in the midst," "the doors being shut."

John 20:19 (KJV)

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

And,

John 20:26 (KJV)

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

How and when He got there is not disclosed! BE ZACT (exact) when quoting Scripture!

I hadn't quoted the scripture, I made an extrapolated summary of it. That "he came" implies more than that he simply suddenly "appeared in their midst". The door being shut implies that he entered the room as if the door were open. Which implies that he walked through the closed door. Meaning that he entered the room by the common method of entering a room.. the doorway.. however it was by an uncommon means because his now glorified body can pass through solid objects.

This can ONLY be true if "a person IS a spirit (soul) who HAS a body." That may sound right because that's how we often are taught to talk and how theology is worded, but the Scriptures say that "a person IS a body that breathes air (a soul), and the air he breathes is his breath (spirit); so, he HAS a breath (a spirit)." (Genesis 2:7.)

That again is your view on that verse. However there are many other scriptures that indicate that the person is made up of 1. spirit (which is not merely breath), 2. soul (which is not merely breath), 3. body. For instance Peter calls the spirit "the hidden man of the heart". And Paul calls it "the old man vs the new man". Others say "the inner man" "the spirit man", etc. And still other verses say that the soul in the OT- heart is the intellect and emotions, or it speaks of the spirit, inner man; depending on the context., that differentiation has to be determined by the reader.

However, what you're really telling me is that you buy into this "other dimension of reality" theory that I next mention:

The activating of the quote feature for me to reply has made your blockquotes vanish so I don't know what you refer to here.

I'm not "departing from the Bible"; I'm departing from the generally accepted THEOLOGICAL THEORIES!

You say that like it's a good thing. Also what you call theological theories is in truth the orthodox majority understanding of the scriptures. You will not be accurate in saying that what you believe is the Truth as revealed by the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit of God.

Actually, it's not. Your "ghostly figures" are in your imagination. They didn't see "ghostly figures"; they SAW Eliyahuw and Mosheh IN THE FLESH! Why do you think Peter was asking if they should put up tents for them?

My use of the words "ghostly figures" was in the common vernacular. The two men were not "in the flesh" since it was a vision only, as Jesus explained to the disciples. As the verses below indicate.

Matthew 17:1-13 (KJV)

1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. 10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Mark 9:1-13 (KJV)

1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. 5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. 7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead. 10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. 11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come? 12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. 13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Luke 9:27-36 (KJV)

27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. 33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said. 34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud. 35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. 36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

BUT, it was a VISION of the FUTURE, NOT reality ... YET!

It still remains that the two men were not of flesh but in vision they were more similar to the vernacular of ghostly figures.

AHHH!!! It's because they DO support the PHYSICAL truths of the afterlife!

The physical truth of the afterlife is that at the resurrection of the dead (occuring at the rapture of the church), their bodies are changed to immortal..ie glorified, as also are those who are alive at the time that the resurrection happens.

And, people have gone ga-ga with this crazy word "spiritual!" Because people don't understand the word "spirit" correctly, they consequently CAN'T understand the word "spiritual." They believe the word means "non-physical"; but, that is FAR from the truth.

The spiritual truth of the afterlife is that when a person dies, their spirit man leaves their body and they go up to heaven to await the time of the rapture to occur. The book of Hebrews confirms that there are now in heaven all of those Christians who've died "the spirits of just men made perfect".

My favorite chapter is the "RESURRECTION" chapter, 1 Corinthians 15! The first thing you need to understand here is that "spiritual" doesn't mean what YOU think of when you say "spiritual," and the word "spirit-ual" is contrasted with "soul-ual" (translated "natural").

You assume that I don't know the difference between spirit and soul. I can read the commentaries from Bible scholars at any of the Bible Tools on line so these extensive things immediately below are unnecessary.

The first thing you need to do is look up all these words in the Greek and understand the nuances of those definitions.

First, here is the Greek of this passage (Remember: I use "oo" for omega and "o" for omicron; "ee" for eta and "e" for epsilon):

Pros Korinthious A 15:35-54 (UBS Greek New Testament)

35 All' erei tis, "Poos egeirontai hoi nekroi? Poioo de soomati erchontai?"
36 Afroon, su ho speireis ou zoo-opoieitai ean mee apothanee; 
37 kai ho speireis, ou to sooma to geneesomenon speireis, alla gumnon kokkon, ei tuchoi, sitou ee tinos toon loipoon;  
38 ho de Theos didoosin autoo sooma kathoos eetheleesen, kai hekastoo toon spermatoon idion sooma. 
39 Ou pasa sarx hee autee sarx: alla  allee men sarx anthroopoon,  allee de sarx kteenoon,  allee de sarx pteenoon,  allee de ichthuoon. 
40 Kai soomata epourania,  kai soomata epigeia;  all' hetera men hee toon epouranioon doxa,  hetera de hee toon epigeioon. 
41 Allee doxa heeliou,  kai allee doxa seleenees,  kai allee doxa asteroon; asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee.
 42 Houtoos kai hee anastasis toon nekroon.  Speiretai en fthora, egeiretai en aftharsia; 
43 Speiretai en atimia, egeiretai en doxee;  Speiretai en astheneia, egeiretai en dunamei; 
44 Speiretai sooma psuchikon, egeiretai sooma pneumatikon.  Ei estin sooma psuchikon, estin kai pneumatikon. 
45 Houtoos kai gegraptai, "Egeneto ho prootos anthroopos Adam eis psucheen zoosan,"
 ho eschatos Adam eis pneuma zoo-opoioun.
 46 All' ou prooton to pneumatikon, alla to psuchikon,  epeita to pneumatikon. 
47 Ho prootos anthroopos ek gees, choikos;  ho deuteros anthroopos [ho kurios] ex ouranou.
 48 Hoios ho choikos, toioutoi kai hoi choikoi,  kai hoios ho epouranios, toiouotoi kai hoi epouranioi; 
49 kai kathoos eforesamen teen eikona tou choikou,  foresomen kai teen eikona tou epouraniou. 
50 Touto de feemi, adelfoi, hoti sarx kai haima basileian Theou kleeronomeesai ou dunatai, oude hee fthora teen aftharsian kleeronomei. 
51 Idou musteerion humin legoo:  Pantes ou koimeetheesometha,  pantes de allageesometha, 
52 en atomoo, en ripee ofthalmou, en tee eschatee salpiggi; salpisei gar, kai hoi nekroi egertheesontai afthartoi, kai heemeis allageesometha. 
53 Dei gar to ftharton touto endusasthai aftharsian, kai to thneeton touto endusasthai athanasian. 
54 Hotan de to ftharton touto enduseetai aftharsian kai to thneeton touto enduseetai athanasian, tote geneesetai ho logos ho gegrammenos, "Katepothee ho thanatos eis nikos."

Second, this chapter is a study on contrasts. Here are the contrasting terms:

zoo-opoieitai/apothanee = it-is-quickened or it-is-brought-back-to-life/it-dies
sarx anthroopoon/sarx kteenoon/sarx pteenoon/ [sarx] ichthuoon = flesh of-men/flesh of-beasts/flesh of-birds/[flesh] of-fish
soomata epourania/soomata epigeia = a-body from-above-the-sky/a-body from-above-the-ground
toon epouranioon/toon epigeioon = the [ones] from-above-the-sky/the [ones] from-above-the-ground
doxa heeliou/doxa seleenees/doxa asteroon = brightness of-sun/brightness of-moon/brightness of-stars
soomata epourania/soomata epigeia = a-body from-above-the-sky/a-body from-above-the-ground
fthora/aftharsia = corrupton/incorruption
atimia/doxee = dishonor or infamy/fame or brightness or apparency or being-very-apparent
astheneia/dunamei = weakness/power
sooma psuchikon/sooma pneumatikon = a-body soul-ual/a-body spirit-ual
ho prootos anthroopos Adam/ho eschatos [anthroopos] Adam = the first man Adam/the last [man] Adam
psucheen zoosan/pneuma zoo-opoioun = a living air-breather/a life-giving wind
to psuchikon/to pneumatikon = the soul-ual (translated "natural")/the spiritual
Ho prootos anthroopos/ho deuteros anthroopos = The First man/the second man
ek gees/ex ouranou = out-of or from [the] ground/out-of or from [the] sky
ho choikos/ho epouranios = the dirt-like-one/the [one]-from-above-the-sky
hoi choikoi/hoi epouranioi = the dirt-like-ones/the [ones]-from-above-the-sky
teen eikona tou choikou/teen eikona tou epouraniou = the likeness of-the dirt-like-[one]/the likeness of-the [one]-from-above-the-sky
sarx kai haima/basileian Theou = flesh and blood/kingdom of-God
hee fthora/teen aftharsian = the corruptible or the decaying/the incorruptible
koimeetheesometha/allageesometha = we-shall-fall-asleep/we-shall-be-changed
to ftharton/aftharsian = the corruptible/incorruption
to thneeton/athanasian = the mortal/immortality
ho thanatos/nikos = the death/victory

Proximity enters into these comparisons. Which comparisons are grouped with other comparisons? Notice that the (2) "sooma psuchikon/sooma pneumatikon" comparison immediately follows the (1) "astheneia/dunamei" comparison and is immediately followed by the (3) "ho prootos anthroopos Adam/ho eschatos [anthroopos] Adam" and the (4) "psucheen zoosan/pneuma zoo-opoioun" comparisons! Comparisons (1), (3), and (4) are NOT "black/white" opposite comparisons! They are "positive/comparative/superlative" or "okay/better/best" degree comparisons! Therefore, the "sooma psuchikon/sooma pneumatikon" is also not a "black/white" comparison but an "okay/best" comparison!

When one realizes that "psuchikon" comes from "psuchee" and "pneumatikon" comes from "pneuma," it begins to make sense. "Psuchee," like its Hebrew translation, "nefesh," means an "air-breathing creature" (and "creature" itself meaning a "created being," not a "monster"). "Pneuma" means a "wind," like its Hebrew translation, "ruwach." The "-ikon" suffix makes an adjective out of each word Therefore, "psuchikon" doesn't just mean "natural"; it with the word "sooma" ("body") means an "air-breathing" body, and pneumatikon means

First, Paul was NEVER called a "former Pharisee." Indeed, he CLAIMED to be "a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee" long after his Damascus Road encounter.

Paul being a "former Pharisee" was used in reference to his Pharisaical training from Gamaliel in regard to the OT teachings alone. His training changed however after the road to Damascus experience.. in that he became a builder of the Body of Christ.

Acts 23:6 (KJV)

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Philippians 3:2-6 (KJV)

2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Acts 26:1-8 (KJV)

1 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:

2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews: 3 Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.

4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. 6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews. 8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

He never denied being a Pharisee - a Paruwsh - a "Separatist"; he EMBRACED it!

His Pharisee training is what he was referring to when he wrote to put off what is behind and look to what is ahead (Phil.3:13-14).

They accepted and believed in the resurrection! However, he took it to its logical conclusion: The possibility of resurrection was a SURE THING, and he also accepted that Yeshua` haMashiyach (Jesus the Christ) was so resurrected from the dead!

The resurrected and glorified Messiah that confronted him on the road to Damascus.

Second, Paul SUPPORTED a physical resurrection!

2 Timothy 2:15-19 (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord (Yeshua`) knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ (of the Messiah) depart from iniquity.

2 Timothy 4:1-5 (KJV)

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ (the Master, Yeshua` God's Messiah), who shall judge the quick (the living) and the dead at his appearing and (that of) his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist (Greek: euaggelistou = "a teller of good news," specifically about God's coming Kingdom), make full proof of thy ministry.

I wonder.... About whom was Paul warning Timothy?

You can continue to play with that however you like, apparently assuming that you know precisely who it refers to.

Good.

(No one had to tell me, and I am neither "twisting the word of God," nor am I involved in "private interpretation." See the part about 1 Corinthians 15 above.)

Yet you hold your own interpretation as to what is spirit.

Your proof is ...?

I COULD quote ALL that Paul wrote as proof, but that would be counter productive.

I don't see how quoting what Paul wrote as proof would be counter productive, unless it's because you again assume wrongly regarding my position.

The better way would be for YOU to prove JUST ONE OCCURRENCE of Paul teaching that believers DO "go to heaven at death."

One out of many from Paul, when he was talking about himself departing from this life soon, and he joyously wrote, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Then there are the many scripture verses from the old testament that teach that the dead are taken to shoel. Another example is in the gospels where Jesus taught that gives a clearer understanding concerning shoel, is about Lazerus in what is referred to as a metaphor for that region of shoel- Abraham's bosom.

By the way, I don't believe that they (or we) "go to heaven at the rapture," either!

Then you prove that your theology has no Biblical support.

We go THROUGH the "heaven" - that is, THROUGH the "sky" - on our way to the Middle East so the Messiah can begin His reign after He rescues (delivers; SAVES) His people from their enemies.

You have already explained that so it would be equally redundant for me to respond as I did previously.

Silly, I will ALWAYS endorse the Greek over the English translations!

The Greek has been accurately translated in every Bible version to give understanding in English that believers go to heaven when they die.

Therefore I can only conclude that your presuppositions slanted the Greek to conform to what you have chosen to believe.

What you apparently missed was that I said that the Greek doesn't SUPPORT the concept of the spirit realm!

The Greek is a language, not a higher truth or God, who by the way resides in the spirit realm! But the Greek is in complete agreement with the Hebrew and Aramaic languages used in the old testament and the gospels to speak of the spirit realm.

You therefore are mistaken in your theological position.

That's a modern, THEOLOGICAL supposition!

I have just proved that it is not a modern theology, nor a mere supposition. But apparently you have convinced yourself that your view is right.

It's not that "the Greek did a lousy job"; it's that the Greek does an EXCELLENT job at supporting the VERY REAL, FUTURE, LITERAL, PHYSICAL RESURRECTION!

I had a reason for saying "the Greek did a lousy job" but you have ignored that. So I will just reply to your launching pad answer.

I agree that the Bible text supports a physical resurrection, however, you deny that the dead go to heaven when they die. So you are not looking at what the Greek, and the Hebrew is actually telling you concerning that.

I do ... EVERY DAY! (Literally, too.)

Wonderful.

No, what I said was LISTEN TO the SCRIPTURES! Take a COMPLETE CONTEXT of Scripture, not just a few verses of your choice! Even above, you need to realize that 2 Timothy 2 and 4 are CONNECTED BY CONTEXT!

This from you who doesn't accept the whole counsel from the word of God. Astonishing.

No, you're making an ASSUMPTION that He did! Look again:

What He SAID was "I go to prepare a place for you (in my Father's house)."
Then, He said, "IF I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again...." This does NOT say that He will RETURN WITH US to that place!

You are not paying attention to context. There is no other place mentioned in those verses that he would take us. Therefore you are reading into it what isn't there.

Continuing on, He said, "I will come again, and receive you unto myself...." Again, He did NOT say that He would then take us with Him back to that place!

Didn't I already reply that what he said there goes so well with what the apostle Paul wrote that believers are "caught up to be with him"?

So I wonder why you are uselessly reiterating this point.

What He said was, "I will ... receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." BUT, He has just "come again!"

Jesus said those words before he was crucified so no, he had not just "come again". You are reading that into it so that it seemingly fits with what you choose to believe.

So, now He turns around and goes back to that place?! No, that only makes sense to someone who desperately CLINGS to the "rapture to heaven" theory. The text of this passage doesn't even SUGGEST such a thing!

Jesus said "And if I go to prepare a place for you I will return and receive you to Myself so that where I am (going) you will be with me also." That is plain to understand. However some would twist it's meaning in order to use it to support their different or private interpretation theology.

If you were correct then all of the Bible scholars would be writing their commentaries accordingly, but they clearly differ from your position.

Again, that's the assumption made from the "rapture to heaven" theory. It is neither "pointless, wasteful OR silly." He simply told them what He would be doing while away.

Jesus clearly said where he was going. To heaven. Then told those who believe in him that they would be taken to reside there. In heaven. That is truth. What you interpret is not truth.

The COMFORT was to be found in the fact that He promised to RETURN and to GATHER THEM (IN RESURRECTION) TO HIMSELF!

In heaven.

This is NOT a declaration of escapism; He's not taking us AWAY from the battle to hide; He's taking us INTO that battle WITH HIM!

Right. Heaven is not an escape; Paul did not state in those verses that the believers would be going to battle with him. The book of Revelation tells us that battling with him does not occur until his Second Coming.

You're right, but at this point in time.... HE JUST GOT BACK TO EARTH!!!

When he ascended to heaven he stays there (it's been roughly 2000 years) then he returns in the sky to rapture the Christians to take to heaven.

Why would He go BACKWARDS?!

He went to heaven after his being risen from the dead, then ascending to heaven. Then returning to rapture the believers to heaven to be with him. Then returning to earth again at his Second Coming with all the believers accompanying him.

So Jesus has no problem with "going backwards".

Yeshua` SAID when the Jews of Jerusalem would see Him again:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Greek: Eulogeemenos ho erchomenos en onomati Kuriou = Hebrew: Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH = "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YHWH.")

They have to WELCOME Him back before He returns!

They welcome him when they see him arriving at his Second Coming. They have no problem recognizing him even as Paul had no problem when he saw him while on the road to Damascus. No introductions are necessary. However, as Jesus said in Mat.23:37-38 they did not at that time during his earthly ministry recognize him as the Son of God who came in the name of the Lord.

Not at all. I believe FULLY in a Tribulation (although we are already IN it and it is much LONGER than a mere 7 years),

This ought to be interesting.. tell me, by what scripture support or current events do you conclude that?

the Second Coming of the Messiah (Rev. 11-19),

Rev.6-19 is about the anti-christ kingdom.

and the Millennium (Rev. 20).

Rev.20 is the thousand year reign and the white throne judgement of all sinners.

John 14:1-3 is about the Second Coming!

John 14:1-3 is about believers going with Jesus to heaven, nothing is said about the Second Coming in those verses. However, in Mat.24:29-30 Jesus does speak of celestial events that precede his Second Coming. That coincides with Rev.6:12-17.

We may not "hang around in the air for any length of time," but that does NOT mean that we "go to that place in heaven that He has prepared for us!"

You say that because you deny that the spirit realm exists.

To the contrary, again, we are told that that place in the "above-the-sky" (Greek: epouraniou) comes HERE after the earth is rejuvenated, coming down from God and from the "sky" (Greek: ouranou)!

Yes it does, but, it's doesn't say that is what happens in any verse of scripture that is about the rapture!

Back to the assumption again, eh?

Yes you are.

And, I hope my sharing with others does indeed reflect the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

In order for that to be so, you'd have to change your theology to that of the orthodox majority doctrine as it's written in the Bible. But we already know what you think of that.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Joulre2abba
a minor change

Retrobyter · April 6, 2018

On 4/1/2018 at 12:47 PM, shiloh357 said:

The Bible calls Heaven a real place.

Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Act 1:11)

There are rewards in Heaven: "Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets." Luke 6:23

The Father is in Heaven, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matt. 5:16

So Heaven is a real place and I will just believe the Bible and reject your unchristian, unMessianic, unbiblical claptrap.

Shalom, shiloh357.

And, STILL you choose to use the English version for details that extend BEYOND what the English language can convey! While the English is good enough for the overall picture, one MUST go to the Greek for the intricate details.

Yes, the Bible calls "heaven" a real place, but that is NOT the "Heaven" to which you are referring! The Greek word in Acts 1:11 is "ouranon," spelled omicron-upsilon-rho-alpha-nu-omicron-nu, the accusative form of the Greek word "ouranos." The word means the "sky." Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says,

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity) -- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

And, a few English translations use the word correctly in Acts 1:11:

Acts 1:11 (New Heart English Bible)

11 who also said, "You men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who was received up from you into the sky will come back in the same way as you saw him going into the sky."

and

Acts 1:11 (World English Bible)

11 who also said, "You men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who was received up from you into the sky will come back in the same way as you saw him going into the sky."

Would you really expect the disciples to be able to see beyond the "heaven of stars" into the "heaven as God's abode?" or for them to be able to see into another dimension of reality?

Some versions are just totally dishonest rendering the SAME GREEK WORD as two different English words:

Acts 1:11 (NIV)

11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

To me, this is totally dishonest because the English translators THEMSELVES DECIDE between TWO different English words which one to use in translation of the ONE Greek word, making themselves the ones who decide to what the word refers! Thus, they also decide how the text should be read!

This is why I'll always look at the way a particular version translates Matthew 16:1-4. It's my "measuring stick" for translations:

Here's the KJV:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will befair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Notice that the SAME GREEK WORD is translated two different ways! That's not just true about the KJV, but MANY versions do the same thing! By contrast, here's the Weymouth New Testament version:

Matthew 16:1-4 (Weymouth New Testament)

1 Here the Pharisees and Sadducees came to Him; and, to make trial of Him, they asked Him to show them a sign in the sky. 2 He replied, "In the evening you say, 'It will be fine weather, for the sky is red;' 3 and in the morning, 'It will be rough weather to-day, for the sky is red and murky.' You learn how to distinguish the aspect of the heavens, but the signs of the times you cannot. 4 A wicked and faithless generation are eager for a sign; but none shall be given to them except the sign of Jonah." and He left them and went away.

It is not a perfect version either, however, because it, substitutes "the heavens" (plural) for "tou ouranou" (singular) at the end of Yeshua`s statement, rather than in what the P'rushiym and Ts'duqqiym said to Him, but it is better than 95% of the English translations out there!

Regarding Luke 6:23, the key phrase is "en too ouranoo." This is the preposition "en" (translated "in"), the definite article "too" (in the locative case), and the locative case of "ouranos." It translates to "in the sky." Try it in the verse:

Luke 6:23 (KJV)

23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in the sky: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

The Good News Translation accurately explains the TENSE of the reward; it's "KEPT in the sky for us" for the FUTURE, but the King James Version brings out the tense in the first phrase: "Rejoice ye IN THAT DAY!"

Luke 6:23 (Good News Translation)

23 Be glad when that happens and dance for joy, because a great reward is kept for you in heaven. For their ancestors did the very same things to the prophets.

See, I don't really have a problem with this passage because Yeshua` went into the sky to prepare a place for us in the New Jerusalem, His Father's House (John 14:1-3; Rev. 21:1-3). Those rewards - those paychecks - for us can be in keeping within the New Jerusalem awaiting its descent in the Future.

Finally, regarding Matthew 5:16, again, look at the Greek:

Kata Maththious 5:16
16 Houtoos lampsatoo to foos humoon emprosthen toon anthroopoon, hopoos idoosin humoon ta kala erga, kai doxasoosin ton Patera humoon ton en tois ouranois.

This time, the phrase is in the PLURAL locative case, "in the skies!" This is reminiscent of the Hebrew "bashaamayim," which is a DUAL word. In Hebrew, there are THREE numbers: singular, dual, and plural, and the word "shaamayim" is in the dual because there's a daytime sky and a nighttime sky. Again, this is talking about the New Jerusalem, which the author of Hebrews notes is a "heavenly city":

Pros Hebraious 12:22

22 Alla proseleeluthate Sinon orei; kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo; kai murrain aggeloon,

And, the word "epouranioo" is the locative case (translated with an "in" or "at") of "epouranios" which is the combination of "epi" meaning "above" and "ouranios" which means "of or pertaining to the sky." Together, these parts form the thought, "of or pertaining to above the sky," what we call today "outer space." That is PRECISELY where the New Jerusalem is currently being built. But, again, although God is currently found there, THROUGHOUT space, He is not bound to His own Creation! However, His throne IS said to be within the New Jerusalem (Rev. 22:1).

n2thelight · April 6, 2018

On 2/6/2018 at 11:43 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, everyone.

I know that this will be unpopular and some will say downright alarming, but we are NOT told that we go to heaven when we die. As I've said in other threads, the "soul" is NOT independent from the "body." Genesis 2:7 bears repeating:

I will have to disagree

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul. When one is brain dead, there is no electrical impulse within the brain, and mankind is considered dead, even though the physical body may still be pumping blood. Life support systems are generally discontinued in most cases.

When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future.

Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom the rich man also died, and was buried;"

Lazarus was carried into heaven by the angels of God, while the rich man's body was buried in the ground and his soul went to Hades, the holding place before being destroyed by hell fire.

Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

This is a parable about two men that actually lived, and when both died, the rich man could see Lazarus in heaven with Abraham. He could look across that great gulf that stood between them, but could not go there. Our Heavenly Father is the Father of the living and not the dead. Thus to be absent from this physical body of the flesh is to be present with the Lord. The soul does not go to the grave as the flesh does, but goes immediate to heaven. Those that did not overcome cannot be with those that overcame in this earth age, for they are separated. All souls can actually see the throne of God from where they are. Those that are on the rich man's side are being held for that great judgment day.

Luke 16:24 "And he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' "

There is no flame there yet, but there will be after Judgment day. God doesn't burn anybody until after judgment day. This rich man had everything that he wanted, but here in heaven, he can't even afford one drop of water. The role is switched here in heaven, for now Lazarus has the comfort of heaven, and the rich man has nothing, not even comfort.

Luke 16:25 "But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivest thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Life has it's payday, and this is the rich man's time.

Luke 16:26 "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.' "

"Between us that over came, and you that did not overcome, there is a great gulf fixed." That gulf is so fixed that even though one side can see the other side, there is no way to pass between. We can't go your way and you can't come our way. Luke is making the entire clear that you set your course in this life of the flesh, and when your soul passes into the next life, there is no changing what you have done in this life. This gulf or chasm is from the Greek "Chasma"; It means "an impassable interval". The interval is of time and space. This is telling us that if you die hell bound and enter into that other dimension, there is no way that you can reenter back into this dimension again. What ever side of the gulf you are on when you die, that is the side you stay until judgment day

https://www.theseason.org/

Christine · April 7, 2018

What about Ephesians 4:10?

'He that descended is the same also that ascended up, far above all heavens that He might fill all things.'

Sign In

Join Worthy Christian Forums today!

No one ever goes to Heaven in NT times either!

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

HAZARD

HAZARD

IvyRose

Guest shiloh357

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest shiloh357

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Recently Browsing 0 members

Similar Content