Catholic Idolatry

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On 4/9/2018 at 10:54 PM, Mishael said:

http://www.ocf.net/icons-are-not-idols/

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/so-catholics-worship-statues.html

The Bible defines idol worship as taking another god besides the true God while making sacrifices to a false idol. Having icons and statues of Jesus Christ and Saints doesn't fit this criteria. I'd urge you to read these articles and the words of the early Church Fathers well before blindly accusing others of idolatry.

The catholic church is a false religion.. They should not even be making Any statues at all... 

(Exodus 20:4-5) "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: {5} Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

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On 2/13/2018 at 3:06 PM, KiwiChristian said:

Definition of "worship" : Ardent devotion; adoration.

Every Catholic institution has images of Mary, Jesus and male and female figures. An example of this are two statues at the French Papal Palace of Avignon, one of Jesus about 20 metres above ground level, and the other is an enormous statue of Mary, much larger, grander and higher up than that of Jesus. This gives the greater honour to Mary than Jesus. It also clearly breaks the second Commandment forbidding making images of things in heaven.

Job15:15 "Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight."

Cardinal Newman, in his book, "The Development of the Christian Religion," admits that ... "Temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, holidays and season of devotions, processions, blessing of fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests and monks and nuns), images ... are ALL of pagan origin..." (Page 359).
 

 “Through some crack or other in the temple of God, the smoke of Satan has entered .” — Pope Paul VI, 1972

The Catechism of the Council of Trent states these words: "It is lawful to have images in the Church, and to give honor and worship unto them...".

The twenty-fifth session of the Council of Trent decrees that the images of Christ and the Virgin Mary, and of the other saints, are especially to be had and retained in the churches, and that honor and veneration are to be paid to them.

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..." —Exodus 20:5. Ok, so then why do so many catholics and the pope  BOW DOWN before a statue of Mary in their worship places?

Exodus 20:4,5 couldn't be any clearer that even BOWING down to a statue is idolatry.  Yet, Catholics foolishly claim that they are not worshipping the statues they are bowing down to.  BUT, God forbids us from even bowing to statues.  In fact, the Bible is so clear on this matter that the Vatican has even REMOVED the second of the Ten Commandments to deceive you.  

Exodus20:4-5. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."  Vs5 "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God." Isaiah 42:8 "I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."

God DID specifically commanded CERTAIN statues to be made. Were they worshipped? No, were they bowed down to? No. Were the cerebrum on the ark of the covenant bowed down to or worshipped? No. Moses' brass snake was to demonstrate Gods healing power, so the people would know that their healing was from God and not just a coincidence, as you well know. Show me where God SPECIFICALLY commands us to make images of Mary and the pope and to bow to them?

The Pope deleted the 2nd of the 10 commandments so they could use statues & images in worship. They split the 10th commandment on coveting into two commandments so they could still have 10 in  number. Look at the list of 10 commandments published by the rcc! The issue here is not how the Ten Commandments are numbered, rather the issue is that most published lists of the 10 commandments do not include the words, "you shall not for yourself an idol".

Why did you start this in the outer court ?

[Mishael]

8 minutes ago, Adstar said:

The catholic church is a false religion.. They should not even be making Any statues at all... 

(Exodus 20:4-5) "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: {5} Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

Christ made visible the invisible God, and thus it is allowed that images of Him be depicted. The second commandment protects us from creating fantastical creatures that replace the true God. Icons depict real people and events that draw us to the true God. Worshiping an idol is the equivalent of replacing God with a created thing (or ideology or passion). Venerating an icon is an act of respect and love that glorifies the Creator (sort of like saluting to a soldier is an act of respect and honor that shows your loyalty to your country). Just in case anyone thought God’s commandment to Moses excluded all visual images of anything as idols, check out Exodus 36:35-37:9 where, per the instructions of God, Moses has images of cherubim embroidered into the curtains of the tabernacle and statues of the same cast for the Ark of the Covenant.

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Just now, Mishael said:

Christ made visible the invisible God, and thus it is allowed that images of Him be depicted. The second commandment protects us from creating fantastical creatures that replace the true God. Icons depict real people and events that draw us to the true God. Worshiping an idol is the equivalent of replacing God with a created thing (or ideology or passion). Venerating an icon is an act of respect and love that glorifies the Creator (sort of like saluting to a soldier is an act of respect and honor that shows your loyalty to your country). Just in case anyone thought God’s commandment to Moses excluded all visual images of anything as idols, check out Exodus 36:35-37:9 where, per the instructions of God, Moses has images of cherubim embroidered into the curtains of the tabernacle and statues of the same cast for the Ark of the Covenant.

Jesus never said that His image could be depicted..  Man it is so hard to witness to a muslim when we have a person from the catholic religion muddying up the waters and defending the false doctrines and books of the catholic religion..  Praise God that i left the catholic religion when i became a Christian..  venerating an image is an abomination to God..

The Cherubim s where a different matter because God ordered them to be made...

[Mishael]

2 minutes ago, Adstar said:

Jesus never said that His image could be depicted..  Man it is so hard to witness to a muslim when we have a person from the catholic religion muddying up the waters and defending the false doctrines and books of the catholic religion..  Praise God that i left the catholic religion when i became a Christian..  venerating an image is an abomination to God..

The Cherubim s where a different matter because God ordered them to be made...

Christ didn't say it doesn't mean it's idolatry the words of the early Church fathers and Church traditions coupled with the orders God told Moses proves Icons aren't idols.

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1 minute ago, Mishael said:

Christ didn't say it doesn't mean it's idolatry the words of the early Church fathers and Church traditions coupled with the orders God told Moses proves Icons aren't idols.

The Holy Bible is the Authority.. Not some people who you deem to be the church fathers and traditions...  That's where the catholic religion went into apostasy and heresy by following the traditions of men..

[Mishael]

5 minutes ago, Adstar said:

Jesus never said that His image could be depicted..  Man it is so hard to witness to a muslim when we have a person from the catholic religion muddying up the waters and defending the false doctrines and books of the catholic religion..  Praise God that i left the catholic religion when i became a Christian..  venerating an image is an abomination to God..

The Cherubim s where a different matter because God ordered them to be made...

Cherubim is a depiction ad is technically an icon so God is going to order something that violates his own commandments (according to you). Read this aswell: https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/is-there-a-biblical-basis-for-icons/

[Mishael]

Just now, Adstar said:

The Holy Bible is the Authority.. Not some people who you deem to be the church fathers and traditions...  That's where the catholic religion went into apostasy and heresy by following the traditions of men..

Is that why there's 40000 Protestant sects and reformed Churches all claiming to understand the Bible as the true authority yet they keep moving further into apostasy and they all disagree with each other.

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1 minute ago, Mishael said:

Cherubim is a depiction ad is technically an icon so God is going to order something that violates his own commandments (according to you). Read this aswell: https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxbridge/is-there-a-biblical-basis-for-icons/

I wiull read the Holy Bible.. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit i have all i need to lead me to eternity with God..

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Just now, Mishael said:

Is that why there's 40000 Protestant sects and reformed Churches all claiming to understand the Bible as the true authority yet they keep moving further into apostasy and they all disagree with each other.

It is irrelevant if there where 100,000 other churches.. That does not make the false catholic religion correct..  There are many false religions.. But God knows His own..