Is Same Sex Attraction a Sin? Or Only Homosexual Behavior?

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Ekklesia seek to purify themselves, BECAUSE HE IS PURE.  (i.e. He has no sin, no ungodly affection nor desire nor attraction)

ONLY the pure in heart will ever see heaven.

Shalom, simplejeff.

Yes, Yeshua` is indeed pure. HOWEVER, that was IN THE FACE of temptation, and there WAS desire and attraction in the temptation! Was it a real temptation or not? Was Yeshua` indeed "tempted in all points like as we are?" OR, was that all just a trick - a farce - a deception?

We were told three of the ways that haSatan tempted Yeshua`. Was He indeed tempted by these statements or not?

Matthew 4:1-11 (KJV)

1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Luke 4:1-13 (KJV)

1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. 3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

Once again, since Yeshua` did NOT sin, then the temptation was not in itself "sin!" Right?

[simplejeff]

2 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

there WAS desire and attraction in the temptation!

No. That's never what Scripture says. That's your idea, from wherever, not from YHVH.  Never in Jesus.  

There can be , and often is, sinful desires in sinful man,  but not in Jesus, nor in anyone made righteousness, not in a pure heart.

[Retrobyter]

5 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

No. That's never what Scripture says. That's your idea, from wherever, not from YHVH.  Never in Jesus.  

There can be , and often is, sinful desires in sinful man,  but not in Jesus, nor in anyone made righteousness, not in a pure heart.

Shalom, simplejeff.

Oh for crying out loud! Just take out the word "sinful" and what do you have? 

"There can be, and often is [are] desires in man!" And, yes, in Jesus also! They were just desires! That's why there is the possibility of a true temptation! Of course, YESHUA` HIMSELF is sinless (with a pure heart), but that doesn't make His desires any less human!

Maybe it's not said in the text, but how could haSatan think that bread, or God's protection, or the kingdoms of the world would have any affect on Yeshua` if they weren't legitimate things that He could desire?!

Yeshua` is GOING TO BE the King of the Jews and the King of Israel and the King of the World (World Emperor); don't you think He LOOKS FORWARD to that?! Don't you think He LONGS to become what He was always meant to be?! He is God's MESSIAH (God's ANOINTED TO BE KING)! HaSatan just wanted Him to take a "short cut," like he got Adam and Chavah (Eve) to take! (They were to be searching for the Tree of Life and obeying God in NOT eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. HaSatan got them to think they were one in the same tree!)

Don't put Him down by thinking He wasn't 100% human (as well as 100% the Son of God)!

[Guest shiloh357]

45 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Don't put Him down by thinking He wasn't 100% human (as well as 100% the Son of God)!

Correction:  He was 100% and 100% God, as the Son of God.   There was never a time that Jesus was not God.

[Retrobyter]

33 minutes ago, Cletus said:

but... but... same sex attraction IS homosexual behavior.  notice where it says same sex... and then notice the homo prefix in homosexual. 

dont let the world bend the borders of morality in your mind. 

Shalom, Cletus.

This is what I'm talking about! The term "same sex attraction" is ASSUMED to be a "homosexual behavior!" It's not. It's just an attraction, and when one is young, and a person hasn't acted upon such an attraction, yet, then it is possible to head that behavior off! It' s not the sin that COULD follow. 

Furthermore, the word "sex" is often used for the true word, "gender." Call it what it truly is: a "same gender attraction." It's not "sex" until it becomes the ACT! And, of course, as we have already discussed (ad naseum), the THOUGHT - the DESIRE - the LUST for the act is as bad as the act itself!

If one has a "same gender attraction," then one is SUSCEPTIBLE to such sin. And, it is AT THAT POINT - BEFORE the sin - that children need to be warned to avoid such behavior. It's his or her "Achilles' heal," his or her WEAKNESS, presenting haSatan a point of attack, a "chink in the armor" upon which he can attack and bring that person into a "lifestyle" of sinning.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Cletus said:

bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 

if you hate your brother you are guilty of murder, if you look at a woman lustfully you have committed adultery in your heart. 

I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with these verses you are quoting (even if you choose not to identify them with their book, chapter, and verse).

2 hours ago, Cletus said:

And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Yes! And this is a part of that warning the children against such behavior BEFORE the sin! Choosing to love YHWH thy God with all one's heart can provide a hedge of protection for that child!

2 hours ago, Cletus said:

God knows your thoughts far off. 

Yes, and I agree with this verse, too.

2 hours ago, Cletus said:

dont try to split hairs with this.  it may not be homosexual behavior but playing with matches is playing with matches. 

NO!!! They are not "playing with matches" when they are experiencing a same gender attraction! It's something that they cannot help! It's just THERE! It's as natural (for them) and unexpected as an attraction to the smell of chocolate or the smell of turkey cooking on Thanksgiving Day! But, when it comes, IF it comes, we need to have EQUIPPED them to handle it! They need to be READY for it and know how to turn it around to a positive thing and avoid even the POTENTIAL for sin ahead of time!

2 hours ago, Cletus said:

seriously, can you tell me you wholeheartedly believe God endorses such thought patterns as "good and Holy"???

What do you think I am? Crazy?! Of COURSE I don't believe God "endorses such thought patterns," but we're not talking about "PATTERNS," yet! We're talking about the vaguest HINT at such a thought and heading it off before it gets to be a "thought pattern!"

2 hours ago, Cletus said:

i do agree with the part you said about training the children in the way they should go, however at some point our thoughts drop into our heart. 

Well, praise the Lord for that, but again, we're trying to squelch the problem BEFORE the thoughts drop! Understand, yet?

[thomas t]

Hi Shiloh,

hope you're doing well.

On 16.2.2018 at 2:28 PM, shiloh357 said:

 

Quote

I don' t know btw where the fixation for homosexuality comes from in many Christians btw, since in the Gospel I've never read Jesus saying a word about it, so if we should estimate a percentage of Jesus' mentions on the topic would be. 0%, while for some Christian would be 60/70%, they are obsessed and need to talk about it periodically just as other people didn' t know already what they think about it. To these ones: get over it. Read the Gospel more and try to talk more about what Jesus talked about, in the same percentage.

And if we followed that warped logic, we should not talk about spousal abuse, rape, [...] human trafficking [...] either.

 

Everyone might have an idea of what rape is.

But I think that people wouldn't have understood Jesus very well back then, if he would have talked explicitely about subjects such as spousal abuse, rape or trafficking in women. 

Human rights organizations operating in the field of (action against) violence against women don't adress rape as an isolated issue. This, at least is my impression after having had the opportunity to cooperate in one of these organisations (actually "my topic" there has been violence against women). These organizations seek to explain sexual violence against women analysing the context in which this happens. And this context, as I see it, is anti-women bias in general.

Before talking about about subjects such as rape or spousal abuse it makes sense, in my opinion, to adress anti-women bias in general.

 

However, Jesus did adress this in John chapter 8, first paragraph (my own interpretation).

As he adressed gender issues, he opened the way for an understanding of and a debate about violence against women, as I see it.

 

On 16.2.2018 at 2:28 PM, shiloh357 said:

And if we followed that warped logic, we should not talk about [...] child molestation [...] either.

 

Many people might have an idea of what child molestation is. Surprisingly, many previously molested children themselves only discover the abuse at a moment when their adulthood is already well advanced (this is my personal impression). So I think, it might very well have happened that people wouldn't have understood Jesus right back then, when he would have analysed child abuse.

In my opinion, it makes sense to expose an environment that is hostile to children, before referring to child abuse.

Because understanding the patterns of child abuse requires an understanding of enmity against children in general, I think.

Children viewed as second class members of society - this would be a context prone to fostering child abuse, as I see it. To my knowledge, child abusers refer to customs in society that are hostile to children to cover up their abuse and to sell their behaviour as normal.

 

However, Jesus made reference to rejecting children in Mt 19:14, and by this he opened up the opportunity for a debate about this, too, I think. Suprisingly, he adressed this issue reacting to something his own disciples had done:

 

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Mt 19:14 KJV

Regards,

Thomas

Edited February 28, 2018 by thomas t
wrong word: I replaced "possibility" by "opportunity"