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WHAT IS THE FALLING AWAY


Sister

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9 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Jayne

Yes, I guess you could say that is what it means, but it will be a time of testing Jayne, it is going to be horrible.  I always took for granted that every one knew what the falling away was going to be, but I was wrong. 

The falling away is the mass separation between the church and Christ.  Many will fall because the delusion will be so strong and persecutions will be taking place.  One by one they will fall.  It is a great falling away because it will happen on such a large scale.  The congregations will be split up,  divided, and scattered because of fear and terror.  Brother will go against brother, and there will be such a division.

The green pastures, and the safe havens where the flock usually feed will be dried up.  No one will come, they will be too afraid.  The FP who thinks he is god, will make it hard for all Christians who have had that liberty to preach and worship openly. 

All the pastors who taught their flock lies will be hated when their congregation finds themselves still here in this chaos and madness.  They will all turn against each other.  Revenge will be in their hearts.  It is going to be awful, and the light of the churches will be put out, that is why we need our own faith, to keep that light burning inside us.

Remember, all that is coming is only to weed out the goats, not the sheep.

 

 

 

The falling away has been happening for some time, as evidenced in your OP, and also in your words here.  I wouldn't look at it as some future event, it has been happening for some time, and is getting worse each day.  You have churches ordaining homosexuals to lead their flocks, churches that embrace pedophilia, etc.  This is not some new or distant occurrence, it is ongoing.

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15 hours ago, Sister said:

 2 Thessalonians 2:3   Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

 

Revelation 1:12   And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 1:20   The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

The seven candlesticks represent the seven churches.  The seven churches which existed before until the end of this age represent believers who are put into seven different categories with their varied beliefs and fruits.  Each church was given encouragement and warnings to repent on the things which they lack, or else the "light" of the candlestick would be removed.  What keeps that flame burning is the oil.  Oil is faith.  Faith keeps the light on, so it doesn't go dark and we stumble.

By the time the end of this age nears, if those churches do not repent of the warnings, then that light will grow dim, and eventually be removed.

We were told by Paul that "the Falling away" will come.  So we already know what the end result is.

 

Zechariah 4:1   And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,

Zechariah 4:2   And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

Zechariah 4:3   And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

Zechariah 4:11   Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

  Zechariah 4:12   And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

  Zechariah 4:13   And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

  Zechariah 4:14   Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

 

At the end times, God will send his two witnesses to provide the oil to keep the flame burning for the churches to keep their light from going out.  This oil that they have been annointed with is faith, and this is the fuel they pour into the golden pipes for the candlesticks of the seven churches to keep their flame from going out.  Out of each of these churches, some individuals will repent, and this flame is for them,  to keep the faith going, and endure until the end no matter what. 

As for the rest of the congregations who did not repent, the flame will be removed from them, and this is the falling away.

These days coming will be so evil, that the FP will remove all Christian Churches, and buildings, and organisations, and meeting places etc, but do not fret, because this is God's will, as he is punishing those leaders who have corrupted these churches, and the followers who have been led blindly, will need some of this oil that that the two witnesses will provide.  All will be on his own.  What the two witnesses will bring on the earth, all the plagues,... is for encouragement and faith in the God we serve who is finally bringing justice before our eyes. 

Let this be your fuel, that faith to endure to the end.  We will not have anyone holding our hand but the Lord and that faith he provides.

 

 Jeremiah 10:21   For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.


Jeremiah 12:10   Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jeremiah 12:11   They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart.

Jeremiah 12:12   The spoilers are come upon all high places through the wilderness: for the sword of the LORD shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace. (none who are in that land....Babylon)
 

 

 

 

 

Its the DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH...

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13 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Jayne

Yes, I guess you could say that is what it means, but it will be a time of testing Jayne, it is going to be horrible.  I always took for granted that every one knew what the falling away was going to be, but I was wrong. 

The falling away is the mass separation between the church and Christ.  Many will fall because the delusion will be so strong and persecutions will be taking place.  One by one they will fall.  It is a great falling away because it will happen on such a large scale.  The congregations will be split up,  divided, and scattered because of fear and terror.  Brother will go against brother, and there will be such a division.

The green pastures, and the safe havens where the flock usually feed will be dried up.  No one will come, they will be too afraid.  The FP who thinks he is god, will make it hard for all Christians who have had that liberty to preach and worship openly. 

All the pastors who taught their flock lies will be hated when their congregation finds themselves still here in this chaos and madness.  They will all turn against each other.  Revenge will be in their hearts.  It is going to be awful, and the light of the churches will be put out, that is why we need our own faith, to keep that light burning inside us.

Remember, all that is coming is only to weed out the goats, not the sheep.

 

 

Here's my understanding, and it's close to Jane's.

The falling away has been happening for some time already and getting worse, and will continue to wax worse. It's now all around us and gaining strength. The falling away (apostasia) simply put, is the rejection and substitution of the true Gospel of Christ. Falling away from the true Gospel and believing a lie; such as all religions worship the same God, and there's more than one way to Heaven.

It's everywhere now in our emergent churches, prosperity Gospel churches, and the ecumenical movement of the worlds largest church with 1.6 billion members. The secular world calling the word of God intolerant and hate speech. You see any of that happening today? That's what I'm witnessing anyway.

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Correct Dennis, it's a falling away from the true word of God

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1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

Here's my understanding, and it's close to Jane's.

The falling away has been happening for some time already and getting worse, and will continue to wax worse. It's now all around us and gaining strength. The falling away (apostasia) simply put, is the rejection and substitution of the true Gospel of Christ. Falling away from the true Gospel and believing a lie; such as all religions worship the same God, and there's more than one way to Heaven.

It's everywhere now in our emergent churches, prosperity Gospel churches, and the ecumenical movement of the worlds largest church with 1.6 billion members. The secular world calling the word of God intolerant and hate speech. You see any of that happening today? That's what I'm witnessing anyway.

Hi Dennis1209

That was an excellent explanation.  Yes I believe it is happening already, and has been going on for some time and leads up to a complete collapse.

I believe it's not just the obvious things that you pointed out, but false doctrine.  Subtle things, ...like teachings of men taken for scripture, and accepted as the norm.  Indoctrination of error.  Also pride, and arrogance.  Lack of love.  Craftiness.  These will all be the first types to yell out and scream false teacher, or child of the devil if someone else questions their beliefs, even by backing it up with scripture. 

I visited a church once, when I was 18, and attended the sermons for 6 months.  I thought I had met the nicest people, all God fearing and sincere, full of love,  but when I declined the offer to attend their bible studies, because I wanted to find the truth myself, by reading myself, in the comfort of my own home, or on the bus and train, and during lunch hours at work, to privately compare scripture with scripture, and just basically feed on the direct source, then those beautiful people suddenly turned on me with great rage.  They fired me up, and I really started challenging their doctrine, because what they were preaching, was not the same as what I was perceiving from the scriptures. I prayed about it, and read even more, but still I could not connect to their line of thinking. 

I tried a few other churches after this, because I was young, and young people always seem to need people around them, but I found the doctrine was the same. So I thought to myself, is it more important to fellowship with those who have error, and teach error, or to just continue this journey on my own?.  Was I strong enough without someone holding my hand?..or checking in on me all the time?...I chose the latter, and the devil did everything in his power to make me fall.  I did fall for a number of years, but God released me out his hold once again, after I pleaded with him, to pull me out of this mess I had gotten myself into.  He led me straight back to his Word.  No looking for churches, for friends, for acceptance from anyone but him.  That's when he really fed me, and I really understood the difference between good and evil, and the real depths of Satan because I experienced first hand what happens when you remove yourself away from God.  All those years, I craved for God's acceptance.  I thought it could only be a dream to be walking in his commandments, and have the self control to deny the world and and myself.  I thought it could never be achieved to be fully submissive to God, but slowly step by step, he kept revealing things in me that needed changing, and I gave it all I had, and I fell and got up, slipped, went backwards, and forwards, and gradually I "got it".  That understanding of how powerful the devil is, Now I am living that dream, and so content, always aware that the devil never rests day or night, and to be on guard always. 

I am not putting down all the churches, just because my experience was not a good one, and I know there are lovely caring Christians about, but after coming on these forums, I saw wickedness at the highest level.  The most respected Christians acting worse than the dregs of society, full of spite and hatred, yet claiming to be saved. Judgemental, unmerciful, unable to put feelings aside and discuss the very scriptures we hold dear.  Some of the rudest people I have ever come across, worse than the unbelievers.  Yet they are so highly respected and esteemed, and allowed free reign with their tongues, So what is really going on?  Where is equity and fairness, the same type that God has?  We are in the thick of the falling away where love waxes cold.  I did not realise that when I came on to the forums, that I was walking in the devils playground, but I know that now.  Why was I sent here?  Why do I keep coming back?...I think it's to develop self control and to prepare me for what is around the corner, and to keep sharp.  This has been a real eye opener.  This post will probably be banned too.  Just watch.  They will come and attack, because they are sent to disrupt.  It's all politics.  Not what you know, but who you know.  If we get too close to the truth, or correct with scripture, just watch them shut it down.

I am not silly.  I know what the scriptures warn, and I know that the haughty will receive a fiery tribulation, and those that praise this behaviour will join them.   I don't wish that on anyone.  They don't care for their souls, nor for mine or yours.  This is the falling away.  Everyone stay quiet.  Hush, don't make a peep.  Watch us all go down like flies.  Thank the Lord, God is waiting for the perfect timing, and reserved this lot for the end times.  Like a roaring lion, God is going to come out of his hiding place, and let the humble and oppressed know that he has loved them.  He will stand up for us and in Jesus I trust, my redeemer.  Lord come quickly.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Jayne said:

I know that there are two sides to this coin.  Some believe this verse to speak of the rapture and the rest believe it to speak of a defection of unbelievers who once falsely professed to believe.  As I said, my opinion not a hill I'm willing to die on.

I found your definition in Thayer's lexicon which can be found starting in Strong's. http://biblehub.com/greek/575.htm  It took a while combing that page but I found your source. But what I read was "of the separation of apart from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken".

I didn't read "removing a PART of a group from the WHOLE".  I read "of a separation of apart from the whole".  I think that's two different things.  If I didn't quote the source you did, please tell me.

And across the whole page, and I did read the whole page in that link above....[groan]....all of the usage show was, to me, in terms of a part of the group making themselves apart from the whole.  I read several of the scriptures it referred to and that was the same impression I got.

I guess everyone will have to read that whole page and determine for themselves what "apo" or "from" means.

I don't believe it's worth arguing over because that verse doesn't determine our salvation.  Today, at 11:00, after reading that whole link - I still lean towards a defection.

But as I said, it's not a hill I'm willing to die on.

I am glad you found it. I did not copy and past; I wrote from memory. You got the idea. 

If you lean towards defection, then you must also assume that "defection" is the one restraining being "taken out of the way." Sorry, but that simply does not sound right. One thing is sure, for I looked in every translation I could find: in verse 3b we see that the man of sin IS revealed - meaning that the one restraining must have been "taken out of the way."

: -)) We are no arguing nor are we dying! I just wanted you to be aware of what STrong's had written. 

Question: do you see 2 thes. as disagreeing with 1 Thes?
2nd question: do you see this passage as proof that we will see the man of sin first?

Edited by iamlamad
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6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Its the DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH...

RIGHT ON!

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16 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Jayne

Yes, I guess you could say that is what it means, but it will be a time of testing Jayne, it is going to be horrible.  I always took for granted that every one knew what the falling away was going to be, but I was wrong. 

The falling away is the mass separation between the church and Christ.  Many will fall because the delusion will be so strong and persecutions will be taking place

Good looking out sister.

Although I can't say I  agree with you but I appreciate your post .

Last Daze , here is that tribulation testing " straw man " you claim  never to have  heard of .

Imagine that almost at the moment you said you never heard of such a thing being pitched  , Sister posts another fine example of it . 

Who'd have thunk ? 

Are you sure you never heard of it ?

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10 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad

Blame it on the KJV now?  That's your opinion.  Satan has attacked this book more than any other book.  It remains unchanged, whilst the newer translations are always being edited.  I will stick with the one that has stayed the same, and God led me to this one.

Don't get me wrong! I love the KJV and use it more than any other. My point was, in this one scripture, I believe they missed it, while previous translators got it right.

Can't you see that now with all the new translations, we can't use scripture for proof anymore?  This is part of the falling away also, to make the conditions ripe.  Put us all into confusion,...but I am not confused brother. It seems you are convinced of this "falling away." What you are missing is that while some fall away, MANY MORE get born again and are added to the body of Christ on earth. Sorry Sister, but the church is GROWING, not shrinking!

Did the KJV come before your translation?  If I wrote a song and published it, and you came along 600 yrs after, claiming the song was originally yours, and that I added to it,....I would laugh, and say that you had all this time to make your claim, and you should of struck it when the iron was hot.  I would also charge you with plagiarism, because I had the initial rights, and then I would ask the judge to throw you in jail for trying to discredit my name, by cashing in on my own hard labour!  :D   Have you not read these translations that came before the KJV?  Here is one:

Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion (Tyndale: 1526)

Falling away.....is to fall away from the truth, from Christ, and from faith.  Fall, not rise. Sorry, but a falling away was simply not Paul's intent. It does not fit the context. Only a catching away or a departing fits the context. Don't take my word for it, LOOK: in verses 6-8 Paul tells us the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the one restraining him or holding him back has been "taken out of the way (think departing). Then in verse 3b it is conclusive: the man of sin has now been revealed: MEANING that the one restraining him has been removed. Therefore the meaning of apostasia must come from the context. It must me the one restraining being removed. Perhaps you can find a translation somewhere that in 3b the man of sin is NOT revealed? I sure cannot find one. 

But that's not what it's saying.  Paul starts with speaking of the return of Christ and the gathering of the saints, to not be shaken as if that day was at hand.  He then explains why.  The Falling away must come first,...when there is no truth to uphold the flock in the churches,....then the Son of Perdition will come, and evil will be destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's coming.   God is "he" who "lets" this evil man emerge on the world scene at his timing, ...when God says now....because the fulness of the gentiles have to come in.  I disagree. Until you can find a meaning that FITS verses 6-8 you have not found the correct meaning. In fact, Paul addresses those who had heard they were already IN the Day of the Lord, that it had begun and they were now IN IT. (They were SCARED and wrote to Paul.) Paul could have just said, "no, you are not in the Day of the Lord - It has not started yet." Instead, Paul instructs that if the man of sin has been revealed, then all will KNOW the day has started and they are IN IT. And this fits Revelation, for in Revelation THE DAY begins at the 6th seal and the revealing would be the abomination that divides the week, found in chapter 11. So if people see the man of sin enter the temple, they will KNOW the DAY has started. It is not to be shaken that the RAPTURE is at hand. They were shaken because they thought the evil DAY had started, and they had not been raptured. This tells us that Paul had previously told them of a pretrib rapture. 
 

Evil will continue until this man is put out of the way - consumed at the coming.  Not the church.  I can post it again, but what's the point, you already got your mind made up.  That's fine, but I will continue answering out of courtesy brother. This is true, but the bride of Christ will not be here to see it. Did you not read that God's wrath begins at the 6th seal? Therefore His wrath is found throughout the entire week. God will NOT set any appointmens for us with His wrath. We get "salvation" (raptured) while those left behind get "sudden destruction."
 

can't help myself! Great! I find myself in the same fix!

2 Thessalonians 2:6   And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2 Thessalonians 2:7   For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

What witholds the Coming, and the gathering of the saints are these events that he already spoke about; No, you are adding your own theories here. Ithis the REVEALING (of the man of sin) that is being held back. Did you not notice how Paul wrote, AND NOW YOU KNOW?" Paul expect us to KNOW who is the restrainer after reading this passage! I personally think he wrote, "and now you know" so we would read a little closer. And we DO KNOW! At least, I know. Because the restraining force is the CHURCH that is taken out of the way, or "departing." That  is who we know.

 2 Thessalonians 2:3   Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  Notice closely,  "that man of sin IS REVEALED." If he "IS" then He was previously. (In Paul's argument.) He gets revealed here in 3b because the restraining force has departed - as in the rapture of the church in 3a. 

He's revealed at the COMING, when Christ returns for his saints.  That day shall not come until all this happens first. No, the man of sin will be revealed (as the Beast of Rev. 13) when he enters the temple and tells people he is the god they should worship. This is the abomination that will stop the daily sacrifices. When People see this, they will KNOW they are IN the Day of the Lord. This is Paul's argument.

The church has grown rapidly, but not the true believers.  The falling away means the opposite. Plenty will fall, not rise.  Many are called but few are chosen.  In the last generation we shall see it. 

 

Sorry, but there is no "falling away." Understand, in the Greek, it is THE apostasia - a very very significant one. How would anyone know if enough had fallen away to meet Paul's criteria to know that the Day had come and they were in it? Sorry, falling away does not fit the context. 

Are you hinting that the untold millions in Africa that have been born again in the last 20 years or so are not really true believers? Africa used to be called the "dark" continent. Now it is buring bright with God's word, while Europe has almost lost their light. 

Edited by iamlamad
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12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

If that were true, the passage would essentially be saying that the rapture (our gathering to Him) won't happen unless the rapture happens first?

No, preconceived ideas cause some to imagine this. The truth is, the rapture happens to allow the man of sin to be revealed (notice 3b: "IS revealed) - and then all will know the Day of the Lord has started and they are IN IT. You see, "the Day of the Lord" is not the same as the rapture. The theme of the passage is the rapture, and when the church will have departed (being taken out of the way) Paul's theme will have been satisfied. 

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