WHAT IS THE FALLING AWAY

[Sister]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

American Standard Version

2 Thessalonians 2:7 (ASV) For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only [there is] one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.

 

Holman Christian Standard Bible

2 Thessalonians 2:7 (CSB) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way,

 

The Darby Translation

2 Thessalonians 2:7 (DBY) For the mystery of lawlessness already works; only [there is] he who restrains now until he be gone,

Lexham English Bible

2 Thessalonians 2:7 (LEB) For the mystery of lawlessness is at work already; only the one who now restrains [will do so] until he is out of the way,

 

Here is a few. Others say, "keeping back"  "holding it back" 

 

I think "restrains" is as good as any. Or we could say preventing the man of sin from being revealed before the proper time. 

 

I agree that only God has the power to pull this off. But God has to use the church's authority.

Thanks Iamlamad.

One question.  Why does God have to use the church's authority?  For what?

[brakelite]

Not that anyone is obliged to, but I am wondering if anyone is reading my posts? What exactly is wrong with the concept, which fulfils in every detail the prophecy, of pagan Rome being the restrainer, which after having been removed elsewhere, was the catalyst for the falling away creating the Papacy? History doesn't lie. Even the early church fathers recognised what was going on in front of their eyes, and the reformers recognised it as having happened in their own forbears' lifetimes and communities. And millions of true Christians lost their lives, their properties, and families as a result. This same scenario will be repeated with the same players, only on a global scale in our lifetime...in fact, we are eye-witnesses to these events as we write on this forum. But alas, all are blinded by Jesuit sophistry and are looking for a future bogey man who doesn't exist. All the while you are being cuckolded by the whore sitting in Rome.

[Justin Adams]

Well. History is an evil thing these days as we are so enlightened in our gov run and very Gnostic ways. We just reinvent that same old wheel without recourse to common sense and a feel for the horrible history that has already happened. If one take a few minutes to actually read the devastation that befell Jerusalem in AD70, then it will be seen that it really was the absolute worst thing that could have transpired.

500 million believers were stretched, skinned, thumb-screwed (and other parts), beaten, quartered, hanged, burned etc. by Roman authorities. Beheading was seen as merciful - but the other ways the so-called defenders of the Faith used to dehumanize and kill were so abhorrent, no one will ever teach this in schools.

And that was just for reading scriptures and other terrible acts, like daring to disagree. Even jail time for not calling Calvin 'master'. We have just no idea of the horrors of history today in our desensitized age that whines and complains about 'abuse' if someone is lightly punished.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Sister said:

Thanks Iamlamad.

One question.  Why does God have to use the church's authority?  For what?

Matthew 28:¹⁸ And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

¹⁹ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

The Greek word for power in this verse is "exousia" which means executive authority. Then Jesus said, "go..." This is telling us He delegated His authority to His body on the earth, giving the church authority to go and make disciples. It is still very much the devil's world, as Paul told us. The church had to take authority away from the principalities and powers by force, using this authority. It has been a war from the beginning.  The devil does not give up territory easily. He did not just delegate a little; He delegated all. So if God wants something done on earth, He will use the church. He - as the Holy Spirit - working through the church - is holding back or restraining the man of sin from being revealed.  

When the church is caught up, suddenly the Holy Spirit has no church left on earth to work through. HE will still be here, just as he was during the Old Covenant. But the church will be gone, and the man of sin will then have no restraint, and will one day enter the temple in Jerusalem and declare that he is god, and people must worship him. Then, he will be revealed. And then all will know that the day of the Lord has come, and they are in it. That is Paul's argument.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, brakelite said:

Not that anyone is obliged to, but I am wondering if anyone is reading my posts? What exactly is wrong with the concept, which fulfils in every detail the prophecy, of pagan Rome being the restrainer, which after having been removed elsewhere, was the catalyst for the falling away creating the Papacy? History doesn't lie. Even the early church fathers recognised what was going on in front of their eyes, and the reformers recognised it as having happened in their own forbears' lifetimes and communities. And millions of true Christians lost their lives, their properties, and families as a result. This same scenario will be repeated with the same players, only on a global scale in our lifetime...in fact, we are eye-witnesses to these events as we write on this forum. But alas, all are blinded by Jesuit sophistry and are looking for a future bogey man who doesn't exist. All the while you are being cuckolded by the whore sitting in Rome.

Sorry, it is a theory, but it is not the intent of the Author in this passage of scripture. 

[Wayne222]

The falling away is to deny Jesus is the son of God. That's it. The church's will do that when the Antichrist comes. They will say worship the beast not the son of God.

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Then you must explain HOW the man of sin IS revealed in 3b. Please do: I am all ears.

Let's see who the restrainer isn't first.

• He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.  Daniel 7:25
• It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.  Revelation 13:7

The saints are given into the hand of the man of sin.  The church can not both restrain him and  be overcome by him at the same time.  It doesn't make sense.  It can only be one or the other and scripture tells us which one it is.  So, the church (saints) being the restrainer is out.

The Holy Spirit is also put forth as the restrainer.  One thing to keep in mind is that what's being restrained is the revealing of the man of sin.  Some people extrapolate that out to mean that "evil in general is being restrained" but that's not what the passage says.  The work of the Holy Spirit is to comfort us, lead us in the truth, convict the world of sin, etc. but I've yet to find a passage where He is designated as the restrainer of the man of sin.  I think that's an assumption without merit.  So, I don't see any support for the restrainer being the Holy Spirit either.

The mystery of lawlessness is already at work but won't reach it's zenith until the restraint is removed.  What particular evil was being restrained in Paul's day?  John tells us that the beast with 10 horns "was, and is not".  He "was" active in influencing the world power known as Rome, but when John wrote Revelation, the beast "is not".  What happened to him?  John continues to say that he comes up out of the abyss.  So, at some point he was thrown into the abyss.  When did that happen?  We don't know for sure but such was the case when John wrote the Revelation.  I expect that it took place shortly after Satan, the beast, and the son of perdition (Judas) failed to stop the promised seed of the woman from bruising Satan's head.  I believe that the beast with 10 horns was cast into the abyss and then the gospel was preached worldwide fulfilling the times of the Gentiles.  He was released from the restraint of the abyss (the abyss is a jail for evil spirit beings) when that task was finished, and the same evil trio will work in concert again.

I can't say unequivocally that the restrainer is the abyss (or whoever is in charge of it).  It could be Michael, or it could be both.  There's no support for it being the Holy Spirit, and it goes against scripture to say its the church.

[Quasar93]

On 2/14/2018 at 10:44 PM, Sister said:

 2 Thessalonians 2:3   Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

 

Revelation 1:12   And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 1:20   The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

 

The seven candlesticks represent the seven churches.  The seven churches which existed before until the end of this age represent believers who are put into seven different categories with their varied beliefs and fruits.  Each church was given encouragement and warnings to repent on the things which they lack, or else the "light" of the candlestick would be removed.  What keeps that flame burning is the oil.  Oil is faith.  Faith keeps the light on, so it doesn't go dark and we stumble.

By the time the end of this age nears, if those churches do not repent of the warnings, then that light will grow dim, and eventually be removed.

We were told by Paul that "the Falling away" will come.  So we already know what the end result is.

 

Zechariah 4:1   And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep,

Zechariah 4:2   And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:

Zechariah 4:3   And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

Zechariah 4:11   Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

  Zechariah 4:12   And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

  Zechariah 4:13   And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

  Zechariah 4:14   Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

 

At the end times, God will send his two witnesses to provide the oil to keep the flame burning for the churches to keep their light from going out.  This oil that they have been annointed with is faith, and this is the fuel they pour into the golden pipes for the candlesticks of the seven churches to keep their flame from going out.  Out of each of these churches, some individuals will repent, and this flame is for them,  to keep the faith going, and endure until the end no matter what. 

As for the rest of the congregations who did not repent, the flame will be removed from them, and this is the falling away.

These days coming will be so evil, that the FP will remove all Christian Churches, and buildings, and organisations, and meeting places etc, but do not fret, because this is God's will, as he is punishing those leaders who have corrupted these churches, and the followers who have been led blindly, will need some of this oil that that the two witnesses will provide.  All will be on his own.  What the two witnesses will bring on the earth, all the plagues,... is for encouragement and faith in the God we serve who is finally bringing justice before our eyes. 

Let this be your fuel, that faith to endure to the end.  We will not have anyone holding our hand but the Lord and that faith he provides.

 

 Jeremiah 10:21   For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jeremiah 12:10   Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Jeremiah 12:11   They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart.

Jeremiah 12:12   The spoilers are come upon all high places through the wilderness: for the sword of the LORD shall devour from the one end of the land even to the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace. (none who are in that land....Babylon)
 

 

 

 

 

 

"Apostasia" in 2 Thess.2:3 means "departure":

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in verse 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By Thomas Ice, PhD.
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures."

 

 

Quasar93

[ScottA]

On 2/15/2018 at 1:09 AM, Sister said:

Hi Jayne

Yes, I guess you could say that is what it means, but it will be a time of testing Jayne, it is going to be horrible.  I always took for granted that every one knew what the falling away was going to be, but I was wrong. 

The falling away is the mass separation between the church and Christ.  Many will fall because the delusion will be so strong and persecutions will be taking place.  One by one they will fall.  It is a great falling away because it will happen on such a large scale.  The congregations will be split up,  divided, and scattered because of fear and terror.  Brother will go against brother, and there will be such a division.

The green pastures, and the safe havens where the flock usually feed will be dried up.  No one will come, they will be too afraid.  The FP who thinks he is god, will make it hard for all Christians who have had that liberty to preach and worship openly. 

All the pastors who taught their flock lies will be hated when their congregation finds themselves still here in this chaos and madness.  They will all turn against each other.  Revenge will be in their hearts.  It is going to be awful, and the light of the churches will be put out, that is why we need our own faith, to keep that light burning inside us.

Remember, all that is coming is only to weed out the goats, not the sheep.

 

 

This is true, but has already happened, beginning with the seven churches addressed by Jesus in the Revelation: five out of seven were doing things they ought not, according to Christ. And now the children of folly are more than the children of righteousness.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Let's see who the restrainer isn't first.

• He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.  Daniel 7:25
• It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.  Revelation 13:7

The saints are given into the hand of the man of sin.  The church can not both restrain him and  be overcome by him at the same time.  It doesn't make sense.  It can only be one or the other and scripture tells us which one it is.  So, the church (saints) being the restrainer is out.

The Holy Spirit is also put forth as the restrainer.  One thing to keep in mind is that what's being restrained is the revealing of the man of sin.  Some people extrapolate that out to mean that "evil in general is being restrained" but that's not what the passage says.  The work of the Holy Spirit is to comfort us, lead us in the truth, convict the world of sin, etc. but I've yet to find a passage where He is designated as the restrainer of the man of sin.  I think that's an assumption without merit.  So, I don't see any support for the restrainer being the Holy Spirit either.

The mystery of lawlessness is already at work but won't reach it's zenith until the restraint is removed.  What particular evil was being restrained in Paul's day?  John tells us that the beast with 10 horns "was, and is not".  He "was" active in influencing the world power known as Rome, but when John wrote Revelation, the beast "is not".  What happened to him?  John continues to say that he comes up out of the abyss.  So, at some point he was thrown into the abyss.  When did that happen?  We don't know for sure but such was the case when John wrote the Revelation.  I expect that it took place shortly after Satan, the beast, and the son of perdition (Judas) failed to stop the promised seed of the woman from bruising Satan's head.  I believe that the beast with 10 horns was cast into the abyss and then the gospel was preached worldwide fulfilling the times of the Gentiles.  He was released from the restraint of the abyss (the abyss is a jail for evil spirit beings) when that task was finished, and the same evil trio will work in concert again.

I can't say unequivocally that the restrainer is the abyss (or whoever is in charge of it).  It could be Michael, or it could be both.  There's no support for it being the Holy Spirit, and it goes against scripture to say its the church.

You have completely overlooked the element of TIME. While the church is here - at the end, where we are NOW, the man of sin is here also, but is being restrained by God working through the church and using the authority He gave to the church. But when the time comes, the church will be removed, and then (and only then) will the man of sin be revealed as to who he will become: the BEAST of chapter 13. At this time, then, HE IS NO LONGER restrained. He is free and is given 42 months of authority by God Himself.  And during this 42 months of authority HE WILL HAVE POWER over the saints - but NOT THE SAME saints. How could this be any simpler?

You are right: IT IS NOT at the same time. "So, the church (saints) being the restrainer is out."  No, it is IN. Your argument is a sieve - does not hold water. Your TIMING is off. He is restrained NOW, but at the time of the pretrib rapture that restrainer will "be taken out of the way." Surely you know this. And you are wrong also as to WHICH saints. The saints who will be "overcome" will be the "remnant" saints. Remnant because the main load was taken out at the pretrib rapture. Surely you know this too:

Revelation 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Therefore you are mistaken about WHICH saints. The saints who are involved with the restraining will be taken out of the way, but those left behind (some saints will be left behind) will be the saints overcome. So we have saints through whom God will restrain, and we have different saints who will be overcome. See how simple this is?

 

The Holy Spirit is the POWER of the Godhead. God the father is the PLANNER, while Jesus is the Word, or the speaker for the Godhead. Of course then, it will be the Holy Spirit that will be doing the restraining. 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2018 by iamlamad